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How to mothball RMN ships

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How to mothball RMN ships
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:39 pm

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I have read several suggestions that the RMN should begin mothballing ships.

I am still confused about the process. I suppose that creating an aircraft boneyard in space may be easier than on planet where you have to have deserts whose lack of moisture help to preserve the aircraft.

But there are other considerations in space. Debris will be constantly bombarding these mothballs which don't have their particle shields up?

And where do you put them? In a parking orbit I presume. But in Manticore's case, where exactly would that parking orbit be? These mothballs would only be sitting ducks for the MA to do with them as Honor did to the SLN's. Do we really think mothballs for the RMN is recommended at this moment?

Plus, are these ships manned by a skeleton crew? I can see mothball assignment being drawn by all of the Navy's fuckups.

And, at least a single reactor has to be used to power minimal systems, especially the fusion thrusters to maintain orbit.

At any rate, a mothballed RMN Fleet is exactly the sort of prey that the Spiders will sink their fangs into and suck dry.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How to mothball RMN ships
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:17 pm

cthia
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BTW, I have heard the phrase "decommissioned ships" used in the RMN before. But I don't know if that meant that they were mothballed or sent to the breakers.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How to mothball RMN ships
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:21 pm

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cthia wrote:I have read several suggestions that the RMN should begin mothballing ships.

I am still confused about the process. I suppose that creating an aircraft boneyard in space may be easier than on planet where you have to have deserts whose lack of moisture help to preserve the aircraft.

But there are other considerations in space. Debris will be constantly bombarding these mothballs which don't have their particle shields up?

And where do you put them? In a parking orbit I presume. But in Manticore's case, where exactly would that parking orbit be? These mothballs would only be sitting ducks for the MA to do with them as Honor did to the SLN's. Do we really think mothballs for the RMN is recommended at this moment?

Plus, are these ships manned by a skeleton crew? I can see mothball assignment being drawn by all of the Navy's fuckups.

And, at least a single reactor has to be used to power minimal systems, especially the fusion thrusters to maintain orbit.

At any rate, a mothballed RMN Fleet is exactly the sort of prey that the Spiders will sink their fangs into and suck dry.

Well they have "mothballed" ships before - specifically High Ridge's government mothballed a bunch of the legacy wall off battle. (In WoH Houseman and Janacek discuss plans to "mothball another sixteen percent of the wall").

Certainly mothballed reserve ships would be vulnerable to any attack that could slip through the system defenses. So, sure, they'd be vulnerable should spiders manage another attack.


We obviously don't know any specifics about how it works, but my guess it that they'd be in an orbit far enough from any planet that they'd need virtually no station keeping as there wouldn't be any atmospheric drag to slow them down. I seriously doubt they'd keep onboard reactors running; nor keep permanent crew aboard. Must more likely, to my mind, is to have a small crew that slowly works their way through inspecting and maintaining the ships -- maybe visiting each one once every couple of months; or responding to any alerts/alarms. They could use shuttles or tugs to adjust orbits as needed without any need to fire up the mothballed ships' reactors or thrusters.


As for whether the RMN should create a mothball fleet at the moment; I tend to think not; or at least not yet. At the moment they have too many legacy units that need replacement by more modern units -- and those are too behind the curve to want to retain. However the needs for a peacetime navy do call for somewhat different ships than an all out war -- we've discussed before how the Rolands aren't well suited for anything but direct battle; lacking the marines and crew for many peacetime destroyer missions.
So those I could see mothballing once they get enough other modern destroyers to see all the legacy units retired and scrapped. (Even the Wolfhounds might be a bit too pared back; even if they decide that LERMs are a better DD weapons than Mk16s. So the modern destroyer would probably be at least a slightly larger derivative of those classes that retains the automation and ability to run on small crews; but has space to carry extra crew and marines when the missions call for it -- as peacetime patrol, anti-piracy work, boarding/landing operations, etc. need more trained bodies than pure combat does)

But I don't see any reason to keep any DDs older than a Roland or Wolfhound, any CL older than an Avalon, any CA older than a Sag-C, any BC older than a Agamemnon, or any non podlaying SD. Not in reserve anyway, and not once you've been able to build their more modern replacements.

And I don't think they have enough modern ships that they'd want to mothball any of them now.
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Re: How to mothball RMN ships
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:45 pm

cthia
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Thanks. I couldn't recall that there were already mothballed ships in the MBS. I suppose my brain assumed that any navy that was so hard pressed for ships didn't have the luxury of mothballing any. But as I said upstream, I do recall decommissioned ships being mentioned. But I dunno if that meant the ships were mothballed, sent to the breakers, or it depends.

For reference, I assumed all of the ships that were retired when state of the art automation was fully in place were decommissioned. As in sent to the breakers.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How to mothball RMN ships
Post by Theemile   » Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:35 pm

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cthia wrote:Thanks. I couldn't recall that there were already mothballed ships in the MBS. I suppose my brain assumed that any navy that was so hard pressed for ships didn't have the luxury of mothballing any. But as I said upstream, I do recall decommissioned ships being mentioned. But I dunno if that meant the ships were mothballed, sent to the breakers, or it depends.

For reference, I assumed all of the ships that were retired when state of the art automation was fully in place were decommissioned. As in sent to the breakers.


They were discussing mothballing Capital ships in UH due to not needing large battle fleets anymore.

The RMN probably mothballed all tube wallers (duh) left in use and most likely all the Medusas and Minotaurs as well. The Graysons mothballed the remaing Tube wallers, and their remaining Harrington 1s. Haven probably mothballed most of the surviving "Sovereign of Space" class and probably their early CLACs. The IAN probably got rid of their remaining Tube Wallers.

The RMN had already gotten rid of all their old "pre-laser head" light units between the wars, and Haven lost 100 BCs and CAs in the battle of Manticore, so they don't have many old sub-wallers to spare. Grayson has a very small sub-waller fleet, so if anything will want to replace any of it's oldest Manticore gifted ships remaining with new builds when available.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How to mothball RMN ships
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:18 pm

cthia
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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:Thanks. I couldn't recall that there were already mothballed ships in the MBS. I suppose my brain assumed that any navy that was so hard pressed for ships didn't have the luxury of mothballing any. But as I said upstream, I do recall decommissioned ships being mentioned. But I dunno if that meant the ships were mothballed, sent to the breakers, or it depends.

For reference, I assumed all of the ships that were retired when state of the art automation was fully in place were decommissioned. As in sent to the breakers.


They were discussing mothballing Capital ships in UH due to not needing large battle fleets anymore.

The RMN probably mothballed all tube wallers (duh) left in use and most likely all the Medusas and Minotaurs as well. The Graysons mothballed the remaing Tube wallers, and their remaining Harrington 1s. Haven probably mothballed most of the surviving "Sovereign of Space" class and probably their early CLACs. The IAN probably got rid of their remaining Tube Wallers.

The RMN had already gotten rid of all their old "pre-laser head" light units between the wars, and Haven lost 100 BCs and CAs in the battle of Manticore, so they don't have many old sub-wallers to spare. Grayson has a very small sub-waller fleet, so if anything will want to replace any of it's oldest Manticore gifted ships remaining with new builds when available.

Grayson mothballed ships as well? I didn't think they had enough ships to indulge in the leisure either.

But a mothballed fleet is simply asking for it. There can't be a juicier prize other than Honor's flagship. And talk about an opportunity to create a diversion when the shit hits the fan. Attacking a mothballed fleet with the fleet directly in line with you and the planet means ejecta will be hurtled at the planet. All ships and wedges will be needed on deck.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How to mothball RMN ships
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:40 pm

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cthia wrote:Thanks. I couldn't recall that there were already mothballed ships in the MBS. I suppose my brain assumed that any navy that was so hard pressed for ships didn't have the luxury of mothballing any. But as I said upstream, I do recall decommissioned ships being mentioned. But I dunno if that meant the ships were mothballed, sent to the breakers, or it depends.

For reference, I assumed all of the ships that were retired when state of the art automation was fully in place were decommissioned. As in sent to the breakers.
Well in War of Honor I believe the mothballing was a way for the High Ridge government to try to have their cake and eat it too.

They needed to keep ship numbers up so they could argue they had a significant naval edge over Haven and stave off opposition demands that construction be resumed on all the modern ships. But they didn't want to pay to keep them in full operation either because that also cost too much given how much funding they wanted to divert to their domestic policies. So by mothballing the old ships it let them save (divert) money while still claiming they could rapidly call up the entire navy that pushed Haven to the negotiating table. The fact that it was economically (in the long term) and militarily stupid to do it didn't seem to matter a whit to them.
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Re: How to mothball RMN ships
Post by Theemile   » Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:44 pm

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cthia wrote:
Theemile wrote:
They were discussing mothballing Capital ships in UH due to not needing large battle fleets anymore.

The RMN probably mothballed all tube wallers (duh) left in use and most likely all the Medusas and Minotaurs as well. The Graysons mothballed the remaing Tube wallers, and their remaining Harrington 1s. Haven probably mothballed most of the surviving "Sovereign of Space" class and probably their early CLACs. The IAN probably got rid of their remaining Tube Wallers.

The RMN had already gotten rid of all their old "pre-laser head" light units between the wars, and Haven lost 100 BCs and CAs in the battle of Manticore, so they don't have many old sub-wallers to spare. Grayson has a very small sub-waller fleet, so if anything will want to replace any of it's oldest Manticore gifted ships remaining with new builds when available.

Grayson mothballed ships as well? I didn't think they had enough ships to indulge in the leisure either.

But a mothballed fleet is simply asking for it. There can't be a juicier prize other than Honor's flagship. And talk about an opportunity to create a diversion when the shit hits the fan. Attacking a mothballed fleet with the fleet directly in line with you and the planet means ejecta will be hurtled at the planet. All ships and wedges will be needed on deck.


The idea is the hot war is over. The SLN has been put right, Manticore, Haven, Beowulf, Grayson and the Andermani have sat down and broken bread in Friendship, Mesa and it's dangerous offspring have been gelded. Massive battlefleets are not needed - because there is no known enemy who can oppose even a shaddow of what Manticore and Haven threw at each other. It's time to rebuild and forge a new peace.

Grayson doesn't need 150 Wallers and 30 Carriers for defense of a single system polity in peace time. That's probably high for Manticore (~60 strategic points) and Haven's (~100 strategic points) daily needs.

Remember fewer than 25 star navies in the Honorverse can field more than ONE squadron of wallers. Beowulf with 36 wallers was the largest SDF force. We know of ~10 of the top 25, and we know the RMN was #3 when it topped 200 wallers (with the IAN close beind) and was #4 when it had 150 (the IAN was ahead). In short, no one else out there fields 150 OLD wallers, let alone sd(p)s.




Of course, we know something they don't....
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How to mothball RMN ships
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:54 pm

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cthia wrote:But a mothballed fleet is simply asking for it. There can't be a juicier prize other than Honor's flagship. And talk about an opportunity to create a diversion when the shit hits the fan. Attacking a mothballed fleet with the fleet directly in line with you and the planet means ejecta will be hurtled at the planet. All ships and wedges will be needed on deck.

How much of a concern debris would be depends on how far away the mothball fleet is kept. It would need to be far enough out to provide a security perimeter around it and keep it clear of normal orbital and system traffic. If you put it at the L1 Lagrange point it'd be (depending on relative masses of planet and star) around 1.5 million km sunward of the planet. (or about 4 times as far away as Earth's moon). That'd give you a fair bit of clearance; though still be within even standard missile range.
Go park them at Manticore's L4 or L5 Lagrange points and they'd be just about 6 LM ahead (or behind) Manticore in its solar orbit. That's put them roughly 107 million km away from the planet. Not much debris risk from that far out.

But yes, if attackers can sneak through your system defenses then a mothball fleet is a damned vulnerable target. OTOH those are, by definition, ships in excess to your current needs. If you were mothballing them they'd have been scrapped - in which case you don't need an enemy to permanently deny you their use. The risk of loss of a mothball fleet should not be a major factor in your decision of whether or not to create one.

(After all, an enemy that can sneak warships or weapons into your system can probably destroy worse things than a bunch of currently excess ships)
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Re: How to mothball RMN ships
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:00 pm

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I recall instances where RMN ships needed replacement parts that were backlogged. I imagine generic equipment can be pulled from mothballed ships and installed in other ships in a pinch. Like reactors, etc.

Making it a reserve/salvage yard.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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