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What next after To End in Fire

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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by DP82ABN   » Tue Mar 07, 2023 8:57 pm

DP82ABN
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I think everyone is missing a critical card in the deck when it comes to tracking down alignment plants and peeling the onion to its core. The GA is hunting hard for everything, and everyone connected to Mesa - and they are bringing along fuzzy little brain scanners everywhere they go. Especially with leadership and investigative team. One easy way to get information is for a Treecat to "twig" on someone who mentally reacts when the Alignment is mentioned. I'm thinking one way to be able to interrogate that person without triggering the Nano's is to stun them unexpectedly and keep them unconscious until they are in Beowulf's hands. I'm sure that Beowulf will be able to figure out a way to neutralize the suicide protocols. It might take a couple of tries, but it is doable. Or for another McBryde to get really upset at the game and its table stakes. Obviously, McBryde was fitted with the suicide protocols, but since he was not being interrogated - it wasn't tripped by him doing what he wanted to do.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:25 am

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DP82ABN wrote:One easy way to get information is for a Treecat to "twig" on someone who mentally reacts when the Alignment is mentioned. I'm thinking one way to be able to interrogate that person without triggering the Nano's is to stun them unexpectedly and keep them unconscious until they are in Beowulf's hands. I'm sure that Beowulf will be able to figure out a way to neutralize the suicide protocols. It might take a couple of tries, but it is doable. Or for another McBryde to get really upset at the game and its table stakes. Obviously, McBryde was fitted with the suicide protocols, but since he was not being interrogated - it wasn't tripped by him doing what he wanted to do.


That may be an easy method, but it might be unlawful. That sounds like extra-judicial rendition, plus the medical operation would likely violate the Beowulf Code of Ethics. In other words, it might work, but I doubt that the GA (the "Good Guys") are going to do it.

As for "another McBryde", my money is on Jessica Milliken. See the "Why are you still alive?" thread.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Theemile   » Wed Mar 08, 2023 9:48 am

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Brigade XO wrote:People and business by and sell rights and claims all the time. What do you think happens when banks (or investment companies) foreclose on anything and then start looking to recover at least part their losses?

Where do you go to unload this stuff? The Sharks. Got some company that is chronically behind on it's notes AND has not been supplying the information (statements, etc) required by the financial regulators? Loans- which may ultimately pay off, just not in the time contracted, become a burden on lenders who have to show certain things (like financial statements by the borrowers that indicate they CAN make some level of payments) but slow payments (like chronic 60 6o 90 days past due on payments) or not providing ANY of the ongoing financial information required by the loans documents -and also the basis of being able to do Loan Review?

So you shop the debt to "The Sharks". You may not get all you are supposed to (including late fees) BUT you do get to get to move a major problem of a loan off your books for some money and the "bad loan" goes away. You clean up your portfolio, get the regulators (and investors) off your backs about said "bad loans" and you take what you do get in money and are able to start lending that back out.

Picture the owner of a big company who calls the EVP of a bank to say "There is this lawyer in my lobby telling me that he now holds all the notes I had with you and is taking over my business. And the response is....Joe, remember that for the past four years I have been telling you that your have to bring your loans from 90+days past due and you HAVE to give me all those tax returns and financial statements that were agreed to be supplied (at least anually) on the business and the guarantor's? Well, you haven'd been doing that and the credit risk rating of your debt has remained in the toilet no matther that you keep making promises but never even try to catch up even if you say "your good for it".? Remember when I told you that this couldn't continue and you have NEVER shown any actual progress in catching up on payments or providing all the financials that you are required to give us?
So, we sold your debt. We don't own it any more and, yes, the person in your lobby is there to tell you that they (or the people they represent) OWN that debt and we can't talk to you about this anymore. Given what you owe, they CAN tell you what they are going to do and your not dealing with the friendly bank any more. I can't talk to you about this, it's out of our hands.

--the EVP didn't actually say "it's just business" but you get the idea.


Sorry for the late response, I didn't notice this post...

You are completely correct, it is just everyday business.

But Mannerheim still does not have ownership of Felix after 100 years of trying on the sly - so something in the Legal/Financial system caused by the multiple claims from multiple failed colonies is obviously causing an impediment to purchase, and I was merely expounding on how that could likely be.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:08 pm

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Theemile wrote:Sorry for the late response, I didn't notice this post...

You are completely correct, it is just everyday business.

But Mannerheim still does not have ownership of Felix after 100 years of trying on the sly - so something in the Legal/Financial system caused by the multiple claims from multiple failed colonies is obviously causing an impediment to purchase, and I was merely expounding on how that could likely be.


There could be a lot of things causing the quiet acquisition to keep getting sidelined. At the very least, Mannerheim will be working with an agent somewhere backed up by a legal team. They will have to work though the various claimants one at a time to see what can be eliminated as an actual "owner" or what they (the claimant) will take to relinquish the claim - or sign it over to the Agent for some amount.

How many entities have a stake in this? How long has each one been a party to the claim and what is it- what is it's basis?

What is the asking price for the system?

How likely is it that the major claimants would agree to sharing out what a sale price is?

You are also talking about jurisdiction(s) for filing the claims and is there a court which is able (and willing) to hear this and PERHAPS take it though arbitration. That puts you back with the question of how many entities/people would be a party to that?

Just for laughs, imagine that one or more parties actually have sold their interest BUT never got full payment so have filed liens to recover what they are owed from said sale..messy, very messy.

At the end of the day, Mannerheim absolutely doesn't want it's name attached to the negotiations but would look to transfer the ownership of the system from the entity set up by it's agent (corporate, probably) that would take title to the system.

How do you transfer the title of a star system in a sale? Where is it recorded?

For that matter, where was the original claim registered? I would have to guess that whatever survey company owned or charted the ship would file for original claim and the ownership would move forward from there. If there are conflicting or later claims on the system, how are they generated and is there any process or body that would oversee the process?

So many questions and probably a lot of people demanding a big payout before they sign over ownership of the claim.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:16 am

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Brigade XO wrote:
At the end of the day, Mannerheim absolutely doesn't want it's name attached to the negotiations but would look to transfer the ownership of the system from the entity set up by it's agent (corporate, probably) that would take title to the system.

I suspect that they've got multiple shell entities looking to acquire rights to the system -- and to further lower suspicion they're likely looking to buy up rights to a portfolio of systems each owner had.

That way, not only does it not get around that some single entity is buying up all the conflicting claims to the Felix system; but it wouldn't even be clear to any seller that the Felix system in of any particular interest in each portfolio of system rights being acquired.

Then once their seemingly unrelated shell entities scoop up the final claim they can all turn around and transfer them all to Mannerheim.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:31 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:I suspect that they've got multiple shell entities looking to acquire rights to the system -- and to further lower suspicion they're likely looking to buy up rights to a portfolio of systems each owner had.

That way, not only does it not get around that some single entity is buying up all the conflicting claims to the Felix system; but it wouldn't even be clear to any seller that the Felix system in of any particular interest in each portfolio of system rights being acquired.

Then once their seemingly unrelated shell entities scoop up the final claim they can all turn around and transfer them all to Mannerheim.


Yes, that would be one way to proceed. It might also be yet another contribution to the tangled web of claims and perhaps drive up the perceived value of the system with so many people wanting to get paid for a piece of it. The Alignment might not even worry about the ongoing costs of running multiple (and compartmented from each other) operations to buy up claimants of the Felix system since they routinely spend an awful lot of money and blood running other plans.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:19 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
DP82ABN wrote:One easy way to get information is for a Treecat to "twig" on someone who mentally reacts when the Alignment is mentioned. I'm thinking one way to be able to interrogate that person without triggering the Nano's is to stun them unexpectedly and keep them unconscious until they are in Beowulf's hands. I'm sure that Beowulf will be able to figure out a way to neutralize the suicide protocols. It might take a couple of tries, but it is doable. Or for another McBryde to get really upset at the game and its table stakes. Obviously, McBryde was fitted with the suicide protocols, but since he was not being interrogated - it wasn't tripped by him doing what he wanted to do.


That may be an easy method, but it might be unlawful. That sounds like extra-judicial rendition, plus the medical operation would likely violate the Beowulf Code of Ethics. In other words, it might work, but I doubt that the GA (the "Good Guys") are going to do it.

As for "another McBryde", my money is on Jessica Milliken. See the "Why are you still alive?" thread.


Why would Beowulf not want to defuse suicide protocols?
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by markusschaber   » Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:12 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:In other words, it might work, but I doubt that the GA (the "Good Guys") are going to do it.


Officially, yes. But the BSC did other things before which are not so "Good Guys" like.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:32 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:Why would Beowulf not want to defuse suicide protocols?


I think that's the wrong question to ask. The one I think they would ask is "why should Beowulf operate on a patient against their wishes?" There's a greater than 90% chance of causing death or permanent damage to the subject.

If there were a non-invasive operation that could be attempted with a much greater chance of success, it would probably pass muster.

They could claim that those were spies (they are). In a time of war, spies can be shot out of hand and do not get the protections of Prisoner of War under the Deneb Convention, because they are not wearing uniforms and identifying themselves as legal combatants. But an execution is not the same as operating medically and possibly leaving a maimed person behind. The Deneb Convention probably has provisions against torture even of spies, and one could make a case that this applies.

This is of course a grey area. But what I am claiming is that the GA are The Good Guys with capital G, therefore they will steer clear of crossing that line. The closest we've seen the Good Protagonists to it is when Theisman shot OSJ in a military coup.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by phillies   » Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:58 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
DP82ABN wrote:One easy way to get information is for a Treecat to "twig" on someone who mentally reacts when the Alignment is mentioned. I'm thinking one way to be able to interrogate that person without triggering the Nano's is to stun them unexpectedly and keep them unconscious until they are in Beowulf's hands. I'm sure that Beowulf will be able to figure out a way to neutralize the suicide protocols. It might take a couple of tries, but it is doable. Or for another McBryde to get really upset at the game and its table stakes. Obviously, McBryde was fitted with the suicide protocols, but since he was not being interrogated - it wasn't tripped by him doing what he wanted to do.


That may be an easy method, but it might be unlawful. That sounds like extra-judicial rendition, plus the medical operation would likely violate the Beowulf Code of Ethics. In other words, it might work, but I doubt that the GA (the "Good Guys") are going to do it.

As for "another McBryde", my money is on Jessica Milliken. See the "Why are you still alive?" thread.


The operation is to preserve life, hence lawful. Undoubtedly the GA will 'request' extradition warrants for suspected alignment spies, with the promise that they will be returned to Mesa for trial or given political asylum.
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