What next after To End in Fire

tlb wrote:Honor eventually ordered Sphinx's defenses to hold fire to keep the Havenites from firing in that direction.

Nothing you quoted says they're actually near the planet, though. They are the defenses allocated to the planet but with MDMs they very well might be out at the L1 and L2 positions or even farther. Stationkeeping in such an orbit would be trivial by Honorverse standards.

Loren Pechtel wrote:I think ranges have been opened considerably by MDMs. I don't think there are any forts around Manticore anymore.

tlb wrote:Honor eventually ordered Sphinx's defenses to hold fire to keep the Havenites from firing in that direction.

Loren Pechtel wrote:Nothing you quoted says they're actually near the planet, though. They are the defenses allocated to the planet but with MDMs they very well might be out at the L1 and L2 positions or even farther. Stationkeeping in such an orbit would be trivial by Honorverse standards.

It depends on what you meant by saying "I don't think there are any forts around Manticore anymore". They are clearly assigned to the individual planets, so they have to be somehow in the neighborhood. Is there something that you would like to provide to show that they are not staying in the vicinity of the assigned planet? I consider the L1 and L2 points to be in the neighborhood, there is no requirement that they actually orbit the planet.

In any case the original post could be interpreted as questioning whether any forts existed that were assigned to the planets and not just for the junction. The quoted text clearly indicates that such forts exist.

Which of course raises the question as to how the Mesan Alignment stole them during the attack on Manticore. Are they holding them hostage?

tlb wrote:I consider the L1 and L2 points to be in the neighborhood, there is no requirement that they actually orbit the planet.

The problem with those Lagrangian points is that they're useful for other things too. The L1 point has an unobstructed view of the star, so it's an ideal location to place energy-intense industries. It would also place any installation there 5 light-seconds away from the planet and thus that much further from any enemies. FTL comms negate some of this, but you'd want to reduce the failure modes if you can.

L2 makes a bit more sense for that reason and because you wouldn't place energy-intense industries there... but you may want to instead place cold industries.

In any case the original post could be interpreted as questioning whether any forts existed that were assigned to the planets and not just for the junction. The quoted text clearly indicates that such forts exist.

The best indication we have of what MDM-based defences would be is Bewoulf. During Operation Fabius, we saw them preparing to launch and then launching. There's no indication those people were on-board a fort around the planet. (It also shows the fragility of FTL links)

But I don't think it makes sense to have forts if they are not in orbit of the planet. You can have an armoured control centre off planet, but that's not the same as a fort. In my mind, a fort must be able to contribute with energy weapons if push comes to shove (that makes sense around the Junction), but maybe the GA planners have concluded that if the shoals of MDMs have been exhausted and the enemy is within energy range of where the forts would be, all is already lost anyway.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:I consider the L1 and L2 points to be in the neighborhood, there is no requirement that they actually orbit the planet.

The problem with those Lagrangian points is that they're useful for other things too. The L1 point has an unobstructed view of the star, so it's an ideal location to place energy-intense industries. It would also place any installation there 5 light-seconds away from the planet and thus that much further from any enemies. FTL comms negate some of this, but you'd want to reduce the failure modes if you can.

L2 makes a bit more sense for that reason and because you wouldn't place energy-intense industries there... but you may want to instead place cold industries.

In any case the original post could be interpreted as questioning whether any forts existed that were assigned to the planets and not just for the junction. The quoted text clearly indicates that such forts exist.

The best indication we have of what MDM-based defences would be is Bewoulf. During Operation Fabius, we saw them preparing to launch and then launching. There's no indication those people were on-board a fort around the planet. (It also shows the fragility of FTL links)

But I don't think it makes sense to have forts if they are not in orbit of the planet. You can have an armoured control centre off planet, but that's not the same as a fort. In my mind, a fort must be able to contribute with energy weapons if push comes to shove (that makes sense around the Junction), but maybe the GA planners have concluded that if the shoals of MDMs have been exhausted and the enemy is within energy range of where the forts would be, all is already lost anyway.

Let's not forget, Honorverse "Forts" are still warships for all intents and purposes - ie they are mobile constructs with (by 21st century standards) considerable tactical mobility. So being in a Lunar L1/2 position isn't that big of a deal, and they should have plenty of time to maneuver to intercept any conventional opponent.

Loren Pechtel wrote: Stationkeeping in such an orbit would be trivial by Honorverse standards.

tlb wrote:In any case the original post could be interpreted as questioning whether any forts existed that were assigned to the planets and not just for the junction. The quoted text clearly indicates that such forts exist.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The best indication we have of what MDM-based defences would be is Bewoulf. During Operation Fabius, we saw them preparing to launch and then launching. There's no indication those people were on-board a fort around the planet. (It also shows the fragility of FTL links)

But I don't think it makes sense to have forts if they are not in orbit of the planet. You can have an armoured control centre off planet, but that's not the same as a fort. In my mind, a fort must be able to contribute with energy weapons if push comes to shove (that makes sense around the Junction), but maybe the GA planners have concluded that if the shoals of MDMs have been exhausted and the enemy is within energy range of where the forts would be, all is already lost anyway.

But wasn't the launch at Beowulf during Operation Fabius done by the Mycroft platforms? If so, those are not what we we would consider traditional forts. I cannot recall reading in the books where any fort (either at the junction or a planet) fired a shot in anger. Even during the attack on Basilisk, when Honor was in captivity, the junction forts provided electronic warfare measures, but the actual fighting was done by the fleet that had made a double transit.

The L2 point makes sense to be the prime position, because we expect any attack to come in from hyperspace; but the forts might be better placed above and below the planet so that return fire is not in the plane.

With regard to placement of the forts or any industrial complex, as noted, station keeping in the Honorverse is a trivial problem.

tlb wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote: Stationkeeping in such an orbit would be trivial by Honorverse standards.

tlb wrote:In any case the original post could be interpreted as questioning whether any forts existed that were assigned to the planets and not just for the junction. The quoted text clearly indicates that such forts exist.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The best indication we have of what MDM-based defences would be is Bewoulf. During Operation Fabius, we saw them preparing to launch and then launching. There's no indication those people were on-board a fort around the planet. (It also shows the fragility of FTL links)

But I don't think it makes sense to have forts if they are not in orbit of the planet. You can have an armoured control centre off planet, but that's not the same as a fort. In my mind, a fort must be able to contribute with energy weapons if push comes to shove (that makes sense around the Junction), but maybe the GA planners have concluded that if the shoals of MDMs have been exhausted and the enemy is within energy range of where the forts would be, all is already lost anyway.

But wasn't the launch at Beowulf during Operation Fabius done by the Mycroft platforms? If so, those are not what we we would consider traditional forts. I cannot recall reading in the books where any fort (either at the junction or a planet) fired a shot in anger. Even during the attack on Basilisk, when Honor was in captivity, the junction forts provided electronic warfare measures, but the actual fighting was done by the fleet that had made a double transit.

The L2 point makes sense to be the prime position, because we expect any attack to come in from hyperspace; but the forts might be better placed above and below the planet so that return fire is not in the plane.

With regard to placement of the forts or any industrial complex, as noted, station keeping in the Honorverse is a trivial problem.

Mycroft still requires a firecontrol center in a centralized control platform. The RHN cheated and placed their Morierty fire control in three CA sized platforms - and they got swatted, the RHN leadership remarked at the time it was an expediency measure and the initial plan was for SD sized (and armed and armored) control platforms. So even Mycroft/Morierty needs at least a mid sized fort - or 3.

Theemile wrote:Mycroft still requires a firecontrol center in a centralized control platform. The RHN cheated and placed their Morierty fire control in three CA sized platforms - and they got swatted, the RHN leadership remarked at the time it was an expediency measure and the initial plan was for SD sized (and armed and armored) control platforms. So even Mycroft/Morierty needs at least a mid sized fort - or 3.

However, it could be a ground control room or part of a traffic control station. I am not sure that it states whether the control was on a specialized platform that could reasonably be called a fort.

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:Mycroft still requires a firecontrol center in a centralized control platform. The RHN cheated and placed their Morierty fire control in three CA sized platforms - and they got swatted, the RHN leadership remarked at the time it was an expediency measure and the initial plan was for SD sized (and armed and armored) control platforms. So even Mycroft/Morierty needs at least a mid sized fort - or 3.

However, it could be a ground control room or part of a traffic control station. I am not sure that it states whether the control was on a specialized platform that could reasonably be called a fort.

The need to have a connection to a FTL comm array (on the connected Keyhole II)- hard to do in a grav well. Morierty's control was specifically on three small CA sized station.

Theemile wrote:Mycroft still requires a firecontrol center in a centralized control platform. The RHN cheated and placed their Morierty fire control in three CA sized platforms - and they got swatted, the RHN leadership remarked at the time it was an expediency measure and the initial plan was for SD sized (and armed and armored) control platforms. So even Mycroft/Morierty needs at least a mid sized fort - or 3.

tlb wrote:However, it could be a ground control room or part of a traffic control station. I am not sure that it states whether the control was on a specialized platform that could reasonably be called a fort.

Theemile wrote:The need to have a connection to a FTL comm array (on the connected Keyhole II)- hard to do in a grav well. Morierty's control was specifically on three small CA sized station.

Mycroft was a replacement of the fort system (and Moriarty) where a small number of massive manned forts were replaced by a very large number of unmanned semi-autonomous missile control platforms. Once the Mycroft platforms were all destroyed by the Silver Bullets, then the information had to be fed to the missile pods by an ad hoc signal from Central Command. That Central Command need not be in a specialized fort.

It could be done from the ground by a laser communication to an FTL relay in space.