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What next after To End in Fire

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by tlb   » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:04 pm

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kzt wrote:Who could have predicted that the SLN would make a big attack on Beowulf and that the RMN will be there to support them with a fleet? I'm sure the MA would never have guessed that would happen.

I wonder how the giant bombs and the Silver Bullets happened to be at Beowulf? Probably just a delivery error, right?

Loren Pechtel wrote:Consider what happens if the GA fleet isn't there: Beowulf simply has to back down and let them transit and the fleet dies to the junction forts. The fleet poses no threat to anyone. Is the MA going to expect the GA to send a fleet simply for the purpose of saving the SLN fleet?

Would you please stop talking about the transit to Manticore in support of Filareta? The critical time is when the Solarian fleet attacks Beowulf. Note the reference to the Silver Billets! It is that time that is critical, because by then the RMN fleet has been in the same spot for months with their wedges down. That is the point of KZT's criticism.

As it happens, because the wedges are down, the fleet cannot even move to respond to the Solarian Fleet that is attacking Beowulf's facilities. What then is their point?
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:26 pm

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kzt wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:
And it seems quite possible that they've been upgraded and enhanced to the point where it does.

I doubt it.

There are no defenses on the Beowulf side of the junction other than the Beowulf SDF. Just astro control.

When the RFP get issued next year, following the revised statement of needs from the SDF N3, we expect the responses six months later to start to define what we can accomplish. Funding should be available next FY for long lead time items once the prime is selected, with first operational fort in no more then 60 months after contract issuance. Baring funding issues or contract disputes, that should be no more than 8 t-years from today.

Logical - but utterly contradicted by the text of the book.

We're explicitly told that it had fixed defenses, that they were formidable, and that they were why Truman's fleet was mostly stood down.

Uncompromising Honor wrote:The Beowulf Junction lay at the heart of a sensor bubble fifteen light-minutes across that a microbe would find difficult to penetrate, and the fixed defenses were…formidable. Under those circumstances, there was little reason to put wear on the hyper generators and nodes by holding the fleet at instant readiness. The ability to stand those systems down was the real reason there were fixed defenses, and any admiral worth her beret was grateful for them.


Exact details of what those defenses are, or how they got put in place so quickly, is unknown -- but that there are now powerful fixed defenses seems unquestionable.
If you disagree I guess you'd need to take that up with RFC
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:32 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Exact details of what those defenses are, or how they got put in place so quickly, is unknown -- but that there are now powerful fixed defenses seems unquestionable.
If you disagree I guess you'd need to take that up with RFC

Maybe they grabbed a few of the Apollo capable forts they'd just finished assembling at the Lynx terminus - the ones that were supposed to be able to stand off (pre-Apollo) Home Fleet before the forts got their Apollo upgrade.

Those were designed to be transported in pieces and quickly assembled, rather than stick-built in place, -- so maybe they can be also be disassembled sufficiently for rapid relocation to another terminus.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by tlb   » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:40 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:We're explicitly told that it had fixed defenses, that they were formidable, and that they were why Truman's fleet was mostly stood down.

Uncompromising Honor wrote:The Beowulf Junction lay at the heart of a sensor bubble fifteen light-minutes across that a microbe would find difficult to penetrate, and the fixed defenses were…formidable. Under those circumstances, there was little reason to put wear on the hyper generators and nodes by holding the fleet at instant readiness. The ability to stand those systems down was the real reason there were fixed defenses, and any admiral worth her beret was grateful for them.


Exact details of what those defenses are, or how they got put in place so quickly, is unknown -- but that there are now powerful fixed defenses seems unquestionable.

Why bother stationing Truman's fleet there? They are not needed to defend the junction and are unable to support Beowulf, because of the time to bring up their wedges! Is it because the referendum is pending (frankly I do not remember its timing)? If not there because of the referendum, then the fleet would be better positioned at Beowulf; there would still be the delay to bring up the wedges, but the time to transit to the defense of the system would be eliminated.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by kzt   » Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:04 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Exact details of what those defenses are, or how they got put in place so quickly, is unknown -- but that there are now powerful fixed defenses seems unquestionable.
If you disagree I guess you'd need to take that up with RFC

Maybe they grabbed a few of the Apollo capable forts they'd just finished assembling at the Lynx terminus - the ones that were supposed to be able to stand off (pre-Apollo) Home Fleet before the forts got their Apollo upgrade.

Those were designed to be transported in pieces and quickly assembled, rather than stick-built in place, -- so maybe they can be also be disassembled sufficiently for rapid relocation to another terminus.

The ones that take seem to take several years to assemble? Those forts?
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:07 am

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tlb wrote:Why bother stationing Truman's fleet there? They are not needed to defend the junction and are unable to support Beowulf, because of the time to bring up their wedges! Is it because the referendum is pending (frankly I do not remember its timing)? If not there because of the referendum, then the fleet would be better positioned at Beowulf; there would still be the delay to bring up the wedges, but the time to transit to the defense of the system would be eliminated.


Well, that's exactly why: they were there to support Beowulf, because the BSDF First Fleet was definitely obsolete. But they couldn't be in the inner system just yet because the referendum had not yet happened.

However, you've got a point that if they're there to support Beowulf, then having a 1-hour delay (40 minutes for the nodes, 20 minutes for the transit) between getting a Case Zulu and arriving on-scene is reckless.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:14 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Normally you defend against this using forts; which, except for maintenance periods, will have their bubble sidewalls up constantly -- and thus be pretty well protected against surprise energy fire. And their likelihood of surviving a surprise attack long enough to respond is what makes such a pounce a suicide mission -- which is a deterrence against trying it.

Normally I don't think you'd have a fleet stated as terminus defense (though Manticore's Home Fleet had to be for a while after the old Junction forts were decommissioned and before new modern ones were build to replace them. But that's a nervous position to have your fleet in.

Of if you're guarding a terminus without forts (and hopefully without much vulnerable infrastructure); say as during Lacoon, I'd go for dispersion and stealth. Don't park your ship atop the terminus; where their position would be pretty predictable -- scatter them in stealth within easy missile range of it and have them change positions randomly. They'd lack the protection of its tiny hyper limit; but they'd should see an attacker before the attacker can find and engage them -- so they'll should be able to choose their shot.


That ensures the forts with wedges or bubble walls up do survive. That does not ensure that the forts and ships without them do.

My point is that an enemy could have an innocent-looking Q-ship posing as a freighter loading cargo in the terminus, while collecting all sorts of tactical details. This ship leaves, translates to alpha, and rendezvouses with an attack fleet that is standing by in alpha a few light-minutes away (BTW, this RV probably increases the accuracy of the hyperlogs to perform the microjump). This fleet drops from alpha and immediately fires on the targets where they were last known to be.

They get a single shot, because the AIs of the defenders will react immediately and have the active forts fire back, like what happened when HMS Bellerophon fired at Admiral Pierre's ship in Talbot. Then the fleet dies.

But they may have caused a lot of damage before going too.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:21 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Normally you defend against this using forts; which, except for maintenance periods, will have their bubble sidewalls up constantly -- and thus be pretty well protected against surprise energy fire. And their likelihood of surviving a surprise attack long enough to respond is what makes such a pounce a suicide mission -- which is a deterrence against trying it.

Normally I don't think you'd have a fleet stated as terminus defense (though Manticore's Home Fleet had to be for a while after the old Junction forts were decommissioned and before new modern ones were build to replace them. But that's a nervous position to have your fleet in.

Of if you're guarding a terminus without forts (and hopefully without much vulnerable infrastructure); say as during Lacoon, I'd go for dispersion and stealth. Don't park your ship atop the terminus; where their position would be pretty predictable -- scatter them in stealth within easy missile range of it and have them change positions randomly. They'd lack the protection of its tiny hyper limit; but they'd should see an attacker before the attacker can find and engage them -- so they'll should be able to choose their shot.


That ensures the forts with wedges or bubble walls up do survive. That does not ensure that the forts and ships without them do.

True - but while ships in safe anchorages will power down their nodes to save on wear and tear forts are designed to keep their bubble sidewalls up except when absolutely necessary to take offline for servicing -- specifically because of the risk of surprise attack. So even in peacetime less than 10% of the forts should have a sidewall down for service at any given time -- meaning the vast majority should survive the initial surprise attack.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Senior Chief   » Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:26 pm

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I finally was able to get around to reading "To End in Fire" and was not impressed... Do not know what I expected but perhaps an end. Perhaps Harrington's children or grandchildren will put a stake through the heart of the Onion for her and that will be the next book.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:09 am

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Senior Chief wrote:I finally was able to get around to reading "To End in Fire" and was not impressed... Do not know what I expected but perhaps an end. Perhaps Harrington's children or grandchildren will put a stake through the heart of the Onion for her and that will be the next book.


It's definitely not the end. As the "cross-post" thread says, RFC has said there will be two or three more mainline HV books.
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