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What next after To End in Fire

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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:23 pm

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How much more could have been shoehorned into TEIF for background, advancing the plot or addressing the complete lack of what is known by Grayson and Manticore about the tech that was used against them in attacks we know Oyster Bay?
Very powerful grazers that moved around without tripping any alarms. What carried the many weapons delivered in a ballistic phase just before they started hitting. Ok, ALL the sensors on the major station and their on-station records were destroyed but what about remote backup (in real time) on the planets involved and on the military ships that were not caught up in damage/destruction of the attacks? We hear nothing except people are looking though data records.
Galton feels wrong. As has been mentioned, we hear nothing about any preparation or actions to look for or defend against so-far undetectable ships capable of transporting a lot of weapons (including the G-torps as we, the readers know them) which one could reasonably think might be hanging around a massive industrially operation that is a system operating as an arsenal for your enemies? Even if they were in-system (vs being parked way out beyond the hyperlimit "hiding") would none of Harrington's fleets sensors not shown ships that were there when her fleet arrived but vanished?
To this point, the GA and anyone else has seen essentially no warships for the Alignment. Possibly at this point they have a bunch of information on ships used by agents of the Alignment which may or may not have been identified as Streak Drive "private" or commercial ships. Mike Henke's ships have all sorts of opportunity to combe though the traffic data and local astro control information about who was in or had been in systems her fleet elements had to show up in and take hold of the places. Sure, many of the ships being used by the Alignment were of Mesa origin or various transtellars, but a big part of intelligence work is compiling information and sifting. The Alignment has been using puppets and catspaws for a lot of things. Heck they even needed to use Mannerheim's Navy to block the Twins-Torch wormhole bridge.
We know they are building the LDs but other than the Ghosts and the "test bed" Sharks......nothing.
Galton had a lot of "modern" warships up though SDs but that was.....what? A SDF for an armed camp turning out weapons and equipment for ......what? Other than the Cataphracts - used at Torch and Battle of Manticore- what has been found to show anything about the development of the kinds of things that the GA know exist. The GT even if they don't have details or know how it moved around, the stealth to recon MBS and Yeltson's Star, whatever it was that showed up at Beowulf and used grazers to take out the primary control links for the Mantcorian designed pod defense system. No evidence of the killer nanites on Mesa but lots and lots of evidence they have been used against the SL/SLN etc and other incidents. We don't know what Harrington's people found at Galton except what was described being used against them.
The Hosta variant that was picked up by the bow-waves......no mention of any similar readings in the MBS during Oyster Bay----I guess the ballistic packages were moving too slowly to because I find it odd that nothing like that has come up from the intense digging Manticore has supposedly been doing on the attack
Plot driven.......we perhaps will discover a program like GRAM has been set up and that's what is sucking in informaton but not reporting out except to a select few.
Sigh.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:32 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:The Hosta variant that was picked up by the bow-waves......no mention of any similar readings in the MBS during Oyster Bay----I guess the ballistic packages were moving too slowly to because I find it odd that nothing like that has come up from the intense digging Manticore has supposedly been doing on the attack
Plot driven.......we perhaps will discover a program like GRAM has been set up and that's what is sucking in informaton but not reporting out except to a select few.
Sigh.
Must have been coming in more slowly -- well the graser torps might have had some kind of stealthy particle screen that "ate" the particles that it collided with rather than generating a bow-wave; but the Cataphract pods only had, as best I recall offhand, passive shielding. So if they were moving at significant fractions of the speed of light they should have been creating bow-waves.

Now, at Manticore, I assume the stations and dispersed yards weren't wrapped in the kind of tight screen of Ghost Rider drones that Honor had around her fleet at Galton. Without those sending back sensor readings faster than light I understand why any bow wave wouldn't be seen and recognized quickly enough to alert the defenders at Manticore. But if there had been a bow-wave of particles they should have been recorded by other sensors on ships and platforms around the various planets, and found during the post-attack analysis.

But if RFC wanted to tie those together better it would have been so easy to mention in passing, during those scenes in TEIF, that Honor's fleet knew to keep a sharp eye out for such readings because they'd been identified during the post-attack analysis after the Yawata Strike. Then it at least looks like they took some lessons learned from that to apply to keeping the fleet safe.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:36 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:But if RFC wanted to tie those together better it would have been so easy to mention in passing, during those scenes in TEIF, that Honor's fleet knew to keep a sharp eye out for such readings because they'd been identified during the post-attack analysis after the Yawata Strike. Then it at least looks like they took some lessons learned from that to apply to keeping the fleet safe.


All of which can still be addressed in a new book that happens simultaneously with TEiF, or by simply saying they had taken all the precautions. The fact that none of those precautions turned up a spider ship is not a failing of the precautions. There were no spider ships to be turned up.

I'm not saying I like this. I'm saying the door isn't closed.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by kzt   » Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:12 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:But if RFC wanted to tie those together better it would have been so easy to mention in passing, during those scenes in TEIF, that Honor's fleet knew to keep a sharp eye out for such readings because they'd been identified during the post-attack analysis after the Yawata Strike. Then it at least looks like they took some lessons learned from that to apply to keeping the fleet safe.


All of which can still be addressed in a new book that happens simultaneously with TEiF, or by simply saying they had taken all the precautions. The fact that none of those precautions turned up a spider ship is not a failing of the precautions. There were no spider ships to be turned up.

I'm not saying I like this. I'm saying the door isn't closed.

No, they didn't take any precautions, either at the WH at Beowulf or during their big attack.

It's like having all your merchant ships sailing individually across the Atlantic at 8 knots on the same straight line course between NYC and London then proclaiming you took all the precautions against the u-boat threat.

You can say that, but it's self-evident that you are lying.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:42 am

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Re: Alliance apparent lack of precautions against spider drive weapons and warships.

kzt wrote:
No, they didn't take any precautions, either at the WH at Beowulf or during their big attack.

It's like having all your merchant ships sailing individually across the Atlantic at 8 knots on the same straight line course between NYC and London then proclaiming you took all the precautions against the u-boat threat.

You can say that, but it's self-evident that you are lying.


Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. There could have been weeks of brainstorming that was not shown on stage. IIRC, none of the planning for the attack on Galton was shown, just a summary meeting.
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Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:26 pm

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We are used to and have come to expect better so when there is all this Swiss cheese of not mentioning any preparation of looking for odd stuff that may or may not match data collected at MSB or Yeltson Star, you have to wonder what is going on. A new "simultaneous novel" that covers the stuff left out of TEIF but primarily expounds on the hunt for the Alignment on other fronts? Set where? Hennessy, Erwhon, The Judean League? How about deep in the bowels of the "Criminal" element (vs the criminals of the SL bureaucracy and the scum that feed them) on Earth and several other systems of the SL?
Our favorite Honest Investigative Reporter who accompanied Harrington to Galton has had an earful of Explanations by the shadowy Good Alignment person plus she had the wonderful experience of getting shot up and almost killed just to a) protect her cover and b) lay a false trail by Alignment intelligence. Wonderful. True Believer who probably decided that she has no option to swallow the information of something unfortunate will happen to her- all in the name of protecting the Alignment is a fairly spectacular way. Yeah, cynical.

Can the Detweilers resist smacking the MA for having found and almost obliterated their "secret" arsenal along with a lot of high value people - not just the Sr. Staff at Galton but all those expensive to extract Houdini people.
Can they put plan D-1A6 (they have computers the also have analysis's and planners who's job is to envision potential alternative needs and set up at least an outline) into effect and do....what? Release a bio-weapon that targets Treecats - they do apparently have a dead one in cold storage and Treecats are really causing them a lot of trouble.....when they finally get the report/memo that the -at least empathic furry things- have been closely involved in a whole lot of losses of direct and indirect Alignment agent?

Can they "leak" information that Harrington is an Alignment Star Line lost Line -but without telling anyone that there ARE Star Lines or what that truly means? Can they infect Queen Elizabeth (and or perhaps her son) with the nanites and create havoc with some cunning plan (watched too much Black Adder) that is intricate as hell and.....will be messy.

I await enlightenment :)
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by dscott8   » Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:51 pm

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:Re: Alliance apparent lack of precautions against spider drive weapons and warships.

kzt wrote:
No, they didn't take any precautions, either at the WH at Beowulf or during their big attack.

It's like having all your merchant ships sailing individually across the Atlantic at 8 knots on the same straight line course between NYC and London then proclaiming you took all the precautions against the u-boat threat.

You can say that, but it's self-evident that you are lying.


Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. There could have been weeks of brainstorming that was not shown on stage. IIRC, none of the planning for the attack on Galton was shown, just a summary meeting.


I have to agree that precautions would have been taken against spider ships, but the reason no mention was made is because there were no spider ships in Galton. Why? Because Galton was designed to be sacrificed, and giving the Grand Alliance working examples of the spider drive was no part of that design. Spider drives are still the Other Guys' secret weapon and the basis for their planned Battle Fleet (once it gets built at Darius).

I suspect that when Honor & Co. finally descend on Darius, we will find out whether the Other Guys have been overconfident in the spider drive's undetectability.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by kzt   » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:32 pm

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When you park your fleet stationary for weeks in deep space with the wedges down it’s pretty obvious that you have no worries about slow moving but extremely stealthy weapons or ships. Which is what the RMN did at beowulf.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:10 pm

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kzt wrote:When you park your fleet stationary for weeks in deep space with the wedges down it’s pretty obvious that you have no worries about slow moving but extremely stealthy weapons or ships. Which is what the RMN did at beowulf.


Which engagement was this?
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by tlb   » Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:06 pm

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kzt wrote:When you park your fleet stationary for weeks in deep space with the wedges down it’s pretty obvious that you have no worries about slow moving but extremely stealthy weapons or ships. Which is what the RMN did at beowulf.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Which engagement was this?

I expect he is referring to the RMN ships that blocked the wormhole at Beowulf to prevent the League fleet from joining Admiral Filareta in the attack on Manticore.

However it was not public knowledge that the ships were there (certainly the SLN was surprised), so it is not clear to me that this needs an explanation.

There were still RMN ships there at the time of the attack on Beowulf in UH, but I do not remember specifically whether their wedges were down.
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