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SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!

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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:19 am

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Theemile wrote:Ahh - But your missing the point of the streak drive. The secret sauce is that it can use 2 additional bands - and no one can detect an up translation. In normal space it behaves like a normal hyper drive - it jumps into hyper (in the alpha band). And even if you were following a Steak ship through hyper, when it kicked in those extra gears, it would simply disappear from your scanners. You might say "it jumped to the iota band" but have no proof that is what happened. It might be some kind of stealth, hyper distortion, the ship might have dropped a band and hyper distortion blocked the signal, or they might merely shut down their drives and let you fly past. Any of those are more reasonable explanations than an unheard of drive that reaches previously walled off areas of hyper.

Even if someone pulled the hardware apart, would a knowledgeable person even know what they are seeing? It's not the normal design, and that would be a glaring item, but could you tell that it opened 2 additional hyper bands? The only hint might be in the software controlling the drive.

Actually I'd add a slight correction. Nobody can detect a translation out of the band they're in. The translation signature is always in the band they arrive in (thanks to the energy bleed of crossing that hyper wall)

So from normal space, yes, you can't detect an up translation because there's no way to translate up into normal space :D

But if someone were sitting in the correct part of the Alpha band they'd see the energy bleed when that upward translation arrived there. And conversely if a convoy's escort drops out of the Alpha bands to check that their destination is safe the convoy ships won't see any translation signature, but any observers in normal space would.

(It just gets talked about only as upward translations because in general we're focusing on observers in normal space)

But in your scenario, monitoring a streak drive equipped ship in the Theta bands it wouldn't matter if they went up to Iota or down to Eta; either way there's be no signature from their departure from the Theta bands.

To detect a streak ship as being something special in hyper you'd have to be in the supremely lucky situation of cruising along in the Theta bands and seeing one translate downwards through the Iota wall! (And that's probably win a lottery every single day of your prolong life levels of luck :D)
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:12 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:To detect a streak ship as being something special in hyper you'd have to be in the supremely lucky situation of cruising along in the Theta bands and seeing one translate downwards through the Iota wall! (And that's probably win a lottery every single day of your prolong life levels of luck :D)


And you still can't tell if that's a downwards translation from Iota or upwards from Eta. Inconclusive.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:21 pm

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cthia wrote:But does that imply that there is another planet with a population? Rather than some bolthole somewhere manufacturing weapons. Early on, did anyone at all think that Haven's Bolthole would turn out to be a planet sustaining life? Rather than a hidden system with infrastructure set up around an uninhabitable planet? In which case, if Haven would have fallen, Bolthole would have been orphaned and died, had it been simply infrastructure set up around an uninhabitable planet.


Yes, it does imply that, because there needs to be a worker population somewhere. We can rule out the streak drive and spider drive actual ships being built at Mesa. I could be generous and say that a prototype or two could have been built in an off-the-books R&D facility, but the MAlign has already provided evidence it's been building at scale. So there needs to be a full-up shipyard and that means a worker population.

Galton was found by researching the slaver ships that transited from Warner to Mannerheim. I'm still unclear how Darius got its population, given it started later than Galton and AFAICT received only 3 slaver ships, instead of 75.

And yes, Bolthole had to have a population of its own too, because it was clear to Manticore intelligence that there was very little traffic of workers between the regular RoH systems and Bolthole (no one taking vacation and returning home to spill the beans). That's what made finding it difficult.

So right now, the GA knows for a fact that the MAlign had spider drives and graserheads more powerful than what was used in Galton, and maybe streak drives aren't to be found in Galton either. That means the MAlign must have at least one more large production facility, with its associated R&D, in a populated system. I think the conclusion is inescapable.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:53 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:To detect a streak ship as being something special in hyper you'd have to be in the supremely lucky situation of cruising along in the Theta bands and seeing one translate downwards through the Iota wall! (And that's probably win a lottery every single day of your prolong life levels of luck :D)


And you still can't tell if that's a downwards translation from Iota or upwards from Eta. Inconclusive.

Oops. Yeah, I guess you couldn't tell.

So it seems you're never going to detect a streak drive in action as anything other than just another hyper generator; no mater how lucky you are.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by tlb   » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:30 pm

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cthia wrote:But does that imply that there is another planet with a population? Rather than some bolthole somewhere manufacturing weapons. Early on, did anyone at all think that Haven's Bolthole would turn out to be a planet sustaining life? Rather than a hidden system with infrastructure set up around an uninhabitable planet? In which case, if Haven would have fallen, Bolthole would have been orphaned and died, had it been simply infrastructure set up around an uninhabitable planet.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Yes, it does imply that, because there needs to be a worker population somewhere. We can rule out the streak drive and spider drive actual ships being built at Mesa. I could be generous and say that a prototype or two could have been built in an off-the-books R&D facility, but the MAlign has already provided evidence it's been building at scale. So there needs to be a full-up shipyard and that means a worker population.

Galton was found by researching the slaver ships that transited from Warner to Mannerheim. I'm still unclear how Darius got its population, given it started later than Galton and AFAICT received only 3 slaver ships, instead of 75.

And yes, Bolthole had to have a population of its own too, because it was clear to Manticore intelligence that there was very little traffic of workers between the regular RoH systems and Bolthole (no one taking vacation and returning home to spill the beans). That's what made finding it difficult.

So right now, the GA knows for a fact that the MAlign had spider drives and graserheads more powerful than what was used in Galton, and maybe streak drives aren't to be found in Galton either. That means the MAlign must have at least one more large production facility, with its associated R&D, in a populated system. I think the conclusion is inescapable.

Cthia may be thinking of Yildun, a manufacturing system with no habitable worlds. There everything is based in orbitals, including worker housing for 4 to 5 million.

Although Yildun may import most of its food, the technology exists to be self-sufficient and so it need not die if orphaned.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by Theemile   » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:43 pm

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tlb wrote:Cthia may be thinking of Yildun, a manufacturing system with no habitable worlds. There everything is based in orbitals, including worker housing for 4 to 5 million.

Although Yildun may import most of its food, the technology exists to be self-sufficient and so it need not die if orphaned.


Grayson grew the majority of their food in orbital habs prior to joining the Manticorian alliance. In a modern Honorverse economy, there is no need for anything but a pile of rubble (with sufficient hydrogen, oxygen, and metals) to build a modern society. A solar system is nice for gravity anchors, raw materials and light, but a rogue rocky planetoid would be sufficient for a bolthole if need be..
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by tlb   » Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:12 pm

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tlb wrote:Cthia may be thinking of Yildun, a manufacturing system with no habitable worlds. There everything is based in orbitals, including worker housing for 4 to 5 million.

Although Yildun may import most of its food, the technology exists to be self-sufficient and so it need not die if orphaned.

Theemile wrote:Grayson grew the majority of their food in orbital habs prior to joining the Manticorian alliance. In a modern Honorverse economy, there is no need for anything but a pile of rubble (with sufficient hydrogen, oxygen, and metals) to build a modern society. A solar system is nice for gravity anchors, raw materials and light, but a rogue rocky planetoid would be sufficient for a bolthole if need be.

A rogue rocky planetoid would only be temporary shelter without constant outside supplies, since it lacks the hydrogean fuel for fusion power. Better would by a system with a dwarf sun, a rocky asteroid belt (whether or not rocky planets exist) and at least one gas planet to power your hideaway.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by cthia   » Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:37 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:But does that imply that there is another planet with a population? Rather than some bolthole somewhere manufacturing weapons. Early on, did anyone at all think that Haven's Bolthole would turn out to be a planet sustaining life? Rather than a hidden system with infrastructure set up around an uninhabitable planet? In which case, if Haven would have fallen, Bolthole would have been orphaned and died, had it been simply infrastructure set up around an uninhabitable planet.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Yes, it does imply that, because there needs to be a worker population somewhere. We can rule out the streak drive and spider drive actual ships being built at Mesa. I could be generous and say that a prototype or two could have been built in an off-the-books R&D facility, but the MAlign has already provided evidence it's been building at scale. So there needs to be a full-up shipyard and that means a worker population.

Galton was found by researching the slaver ships that transited from Warner to Mannerheim. I'm still unclear how Darius got its population, given it started later than Galton and AFAICT received only 3 slaver ships, instead of 75.

And yes, Bolthole had to have a population of its own too, because it was clear to Manticore intelligence that there was very little traffic of workers between the regular RoH systems and Bolthole (no one taking vacation and returning home to spill the beans). That's what made finding it difficult.

So right now, the GA knows for a fact that the MAlign had spider drives and graserheads more powerful than what was used in Galton, and maybe streak drives aren't to be found in Galton either. That means the MAlign must have at least one more large production facility, with its associated R&D, in a populated system. I think the conclusion is inescapable.

Cthia may be thinking of Yildun, a manufacturing system with no habitable worlds. There everything is based in orbitals, including worker housing for 4 to 5 million.

Although Yildun may import most of its food, the technology exists to be self-sufficient and so it need not die if orphaned.

Yildun is exactly what I was lamenting about, from the Yildun - Such a Tough Nut To Crack thread.

Actually, that is what I was expecting Haven's Bolthole to be, because it was so difficult to find. I thought Bolthole was difficult to find for the same reason Galton used to hide. No inhabitable planets in their vicinity. Also, Yildun was still dependent upon exports after being in existence for so long.

At any rate, how dangerous can a bolthole become with no more outside support. If it is orphaned, it needs to devote all of its energies to surviving, not fighting. And, with the paranoia that ran rampant among the MA, who is to say what handicaps they would have to overcome. At any rate, if Galton's bolthole had been simply another Yildun, there was no reason to believe the population was above several million, thus, insignificant to the GA's worry in the short run. If it would even survive, which I am not willing to so readily bank on.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by tlb   » Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:03 pm

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tlb wrote:Cthia may be thinking of Yildun, a manufacturing system with no habitable worlds. There everything is based in orbitals, including worker housing for 4 to 5 million.

Although Yildun may import most of its food, the technology exists to be self-sufficient and so it need not die if orphaned.

cthia wrote:Yildun is exactly what I was lamenting about, from the Yildun - Such a Tough Nut To Crack thread.

Actually, that is what I was expecting Haven's Bolthole to be, because it was so difficult to find. I thought Bolthole was difficult to find for the same reason Galton used to hide. No inhabitable planets in their vicinity. Also, Yildun was still dependent upon exports after being in existence for so long.

At any rate, how dangerous can a bolthole become with no more outside support. If it is orphaned, it needs to devote all of its energies to surviving, not fighting. And, with the paranoia that ran rampant among the MA, who is to say what handicaps they would have to overcome. At any rate, if Galton's bolthole had been simply another Yildun, there was no reason to believe the population was above several million, thus, insignificant to the GA's worry in the short run. If it would even survive, which I am not willing to so readily bank on.

Yildun is a manufacturing center, with most workers building products to sell; that is why it can afford to import food and luxury items. There is no reason to believe that it is a limiting example for a system without worlds that could be terraformed; which is to say that a few million is not the limit on such a population (Beowulf had about 40 million living in the three orbitals). The hard part is getting the manufacturing base set up, once that is done there are few limits, since the manufacturing is the only limit on orbitals. As Theemile pointed out, Grayson was basically feeding the population with orbital farms at a much lower technology level than Yildun possesses.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:20 pm

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Theemile wrote:Grayson grew the majority of their food in orbital habs prior to joining the Manticorian alliance. In a modern Honorverse economy, there is no need for anything but a pile of rubble (with sufficient hydrogen, oxygen, and metals) to build a modern society. A solar system is nice for gravity anchors, raw materials and light, but a rogue rocky planetoid would be sufficient for a bolthole if need be..


Right, though not likely for long. tlb has a point in that.

But I was very careful in writing my answer: I never said habitable planet. I only said it had to be an inhabited system with a worker population. Yildun clearly qualifies as a system with a large population (though it may be considered transitory, not dwellers) and large industrial base. There's no reason the MAlign couldn't have set up shop anywhere like that. If Darius hadn't existed with a nice planet to live on, the other two hitherto-unknown termini of the Felix wormhole would have sufficed in a pinch. Of course, if they're not in a system with an inhabitable planet, then finding them is actually much more difficult because of the sheer number of systems to search.

What makes the Refuge system where Bolthole is located so useful is that it's actually a ternary system with an astounding number of asteroid belts. Asteroids are hardly the largest source of materials in any system (our main belt is about 3% the mass of the Moon; the Kuiper belt is more massive, but far less dense), but it's probably the most readily accessible source of materials because those rocks are just lying around and present no strong gravity field. Many of them are actually rubble piles, so punch one of them with a smaller rock and it flies apart: just vacuum what you need.

Sanctuary was also a godsend to the Peeps and later the Havenites because it came with a human population eager to learn modern technology in exchange for modern medical care. So unlike Darius and Galton, the Peeps didn't have to send the worker population over decades and leave a trail to be followed.

BTW, Refuge has yet another extreme advantage: the dust cloud that surrounds it. Not only does that attenuate emissions and make visual inspection difficult, anyone trying to attack the Bolthole yards at any appreciable speed is going to literally light up in the sky like an arrow. It's almost like David thinks of these things way, way in advance, isn't it?
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