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SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!

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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by Joat42   » Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:23 pm

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tlb wrote:Consider the Battle of Tsushima fought prior to WWI, where the Japanese fleet destroyed the Russian fleet. This is what Wikipedia says in summary:
It was fought on 27–28 May 1905 (14–15 May in the Julian calendar then in use in Russia) in the Tsushima Strait located between Korea and southern Japan. In this battle the Japanese fleet under Admiral Tōgō Heihachirō destroyed the Russian fleet, under Admiral Zinovy Rozhestvensky, which had traveled over 18,000 nautical miles (33,000 km) to reach the Far East. In London in 1906, Sir George Sydenham Clarke wrote, "The battle of Tsu-shima is by far the greatest and the most important naval event since Trafalgar"; decades later, historian Edmund Morris agreed with this judgment. The destruction of the fleet caused a bitter reaction from the Russian public, which induced a peace treaty in September 1905 without any further battles.

The Russo-Japanese War is an interesting footnote in history on how not to project naval forces. The Russian fleet the Japanese caught at Tsushima Strait was all but a fleet in name considering all the problems they had since leaving the Baltic Sea. The trial and tribulations the Russian fleet had while essentially circumnavigating a continent or two meant what arrived was in such a poor state and had such a tactical disadvantage that the outcome of the "battle" was a foregone conclusion.

I hesitate to call it "the greatest and the most important naval event since Trafalgar", but I guess it's a matter of perspective. From a military standpoint it was a stupid disaster that could have been avoided, from a political standpoint it was a momentous event.

---
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by kzt   » Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:40 pm

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The Russo-Japanese war was a preview of what was to come. It was a clear signal that the old ways were not going to work any more and you had to adapt the way you organized, fought and prepared for war to modern times and equipment.

Which everyone ignored, including the people who were on the scene as observers. They just kept on doing what they had been doing and assumed that this was just some complete freak event that had no application to a 'real war', like the kind their military was planning on fighting.

It's like the guy getting married for the 8th time, the power of Hope Over Experience can be overwhelming.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by tlb   » Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:25 pm

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tlb wrote:Consider the Battle of Tsushima fought prior to WWI, where the Japanese fleet destroyed the Russian fleet.

Joat42 wrote:The Russo-Japanese War is an interesting footnote in history on how not to project naval forces. The Russian fleet the Japanese caught at Tsushima Strait was all but a fleet in name considering all the problems they had since leaving the Baltic Sea. The trial and tribulations the Russian fleet had while essentially circumnavigating a continent or two meant what arrived was in such a poor state and had such a tactical disadvantage that the outcome of the "battle" was a foregone conclusion.

I hesitate to call it "the greatest and the most important naval event since Trafalgar", but I guess it's a matter of perspective. From a military standpoint it was a stupid disaster that could have been avoided, from a political standpoint it was a momentous event.

As an example of the state of the Russian fleet, they caused a diplomatic incident with Great Britain while passing through the North Sea. This is what Wikipedia says in summary:
The Dogger Bank incident (also known as the North Sea Incident, the Russian Outrage or the Incident of Hull) occurred on the night of 21/22 October 1904, when the Baltic Fleet of the Imperial Russian Navy mistook a British trawler fleet from Kingston upon Hull in the Dogger Bank area of the North Sea for Imperial Japanese Navy torpedo boats and fired on them. Russian warships also fired on each other in the chaos of the melée.

-- snip --

After navigating a non-existent minefield, the Russian fleet sailed into the North Sea. The disaster of 21 October began in the evening, when the captain of the supply ship Kamchatka (Камчатка), which was last in the Russian line, took a passing Swedish ship for a Japanese torpedo boat and radioed that he was being attacked.

Later that night, during fog, the officers on duty sighted the British trawlers, interpreted their signals incorrectly and classified them as Japanese torpedo boats, despite being more than 20,000 miles (30,000 km) from Japan. The Russian warships illuminated the trawlers with their searchlights and opened fire. As the trawlers had their nets down, they were unable to flee. The British trawler Crane was sunk, and its captain and boatswain were killed. Four other trawlers were damaged, and six other fishermen were wounded, one of whom died a few months later.

In the general chaos, Russian ships began to shoot at each other: the cruisers Aurora and Dmitrii Donskoi were taken for Japanese warships and bombarded by seven battleships sailing in formation, damaging both ships and killing a chaplain and at least one sailor and severely wounding another. During the pandemonium, several Russian ships signalled torpedoes had hit them, and on board the battleship Borodino rumours spread that the ship was being boarded by the Japanese, with some crews donning life vests and lying prone on the deck, and others drawing cutlasses. More serious losses to both sides were only avoided by the extremely low quality of Russian gunnery, with the battleship Oryol reportedly firing more than 500 shells without hitting anything.

-- snip --

The incident led to a serious diplomatic conflict between Russia and Britain, which was particularly dangerous due to the Anglo-Japanese Alliance. In the aftermath some British newspapers called the Russian fleet 'pirates' and Admiral Rozhestvensky was heavily criticised for not leaving the British fishermen lifeboats.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by tlb   » Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:01 pm

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Here is an interesting Youtube video by Dark Docs, that says the following:
All content on Dark Docs is researched, produced, and presented in historical context for educational purposes.

-- snip --

The Battle of Leyte Gulf was fought near the Philippines over several days with a number of different engagements. The combined conflict made it the largest naval battle of the Second World War, and by some estimates, the largest naval battle in history.

More than 200,000 naval soldiers, auxiliary personnel, and officers were involved in the conflict between October 23d and 26th of 1944. The forces were mostly American and Australian on the Allied side against Imperial Japanese on the Axis side.

The naval battle was to support the amphibious invasion of Leyte in an effort to force the Japanese from the Philippine Archipelago. Doing so would begin to isolate the Japanese Empire from much of the oil and raw materials fueling their war efforts.

The battle is historically considered to have been divided into four separate fights: The Battle of Sibuyan Sea, the Battle of Surigao Strait, the Battle off Cape Engaño, and the Battle of Samar.

Paramount among the battles was the engagement at Surigao Strait, where the US Seventh Fleet Support Force almost wholly destroyed Japan's "Southern Force." It would be the last battleship battle in history as the Japanese force, which included two battleships, attempted to run the gauntlet through a trap set by the Americans.

The American force, including six battleships, awaited and managed to "cross the T" over the ragged Japanese line, completing the classic naval maneuver for the last time ever...

The Last Battleship vs. Battleship Battle Ever

This then is a bookend to the Battle of Tsushima, where the Japanese were the first to use the modern big gun battleship (exemplified by HMS Dreadnought) against other battleships. Here they were also the last to use a modern battleship against another battleship.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by Fox2!   » Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:24 pm

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tlb wrote:Here is an interesting Youtube video by Dark Docs, that says the following:
All content on Dark Docs is researched, produced, and presented in historical context for educational purposes.

-- snip --



The American force, including six battleships, awaited and managed to "cross the T" over the ragged Japanese line, completing the classic naval maneuver for the last time ever...[/b]

The Last Battleship vs. Battleship Battle Ever


The six American battleships, California, Tennessee, West Virginia, Maryland, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, were older "Standard" types assigned to shore bombardment in support of the Leyte landings. As a result, they had limited supplies of armor-piercing ammunition. All except Mississippi were survivors of Pearl Harbor.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by kzt   » Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:35 pm

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tlb wrote:Here is an interesting Youtube video by Dark Docs, that says the following:
All content on Dark Docs is researched, produced, and presented in historical context for educational purposes.

Keep in mind that over 50% of the video clips included on a video on their collection of channels is not what they are saying it is. For example, the one I just watched which featured a propeller driven C-17. Umm, I can understand someone having difficulty telling the difference between a C-5 and C-17 in a short clip, but an A400 is pretty damn obviously not either of them.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by tlb   » Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:44 am

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kzt wrote:Keep in mind that over 50% of the video clips included on a video on their collection of channels is not what they are saying it is. For example, the one I just watched which featured a propeller driven C-17. Umm, I can understand someone having difficulty telling the difference between a C-5 and C-17 in a short clip, but an A400 is pretty damn obviously not either of them.

They do add the following disclaimer:
As images and footage of actual events are not always available, Dark Docs sometimes utilizes similar historical images and footage for dramatic effect and soundtracks for emotional impact. We do our best to keep it as visually accurate as possible.

All content on Dark Docs is researched, produced, and presented in historical context for educational purposes. We are history enthusiasts and are not always experts in some areas, so please don't hesitate to reach out to us with corrections, additional information, or new ideas.

So the question is: were the events accurately described, even though the visual footage might not be correct? In other words, is this a correct description of the battle?
The Battle of Leyte Gulf was fought near the Philippines over several days with a number of different engagements. The combined conflict made it the largest naval battle of the Second World War, and by some estimates, the largest naval battle in history.

More than 200,000 naval soldiers, auxiliary personnel, and officers were involved in the conflict between October 23d and 26th of 1944. The forces were mostly American and Australian on the Allied side against Imperial Japanese on the Axis side.

The naval battle was to support the amphibious invasion of Leyte in an effort to force the Japanese from the Philippine Archipelago. Doing so would begin to isolate the Japanese Empire from much of the oil and raw materials fueling their war efforts.

The battle is historically considered to have been divided into four separate fights: The Battle of Sibuyan Sea, the Battle of Surigao Strait, the Battle off Cape Engaño, and the Battle of Samar.

Paramount among the battles was the engagement at Surigao Strait, where the US Seventh Fleet Support Force almost wholly destroyed Japan's "Southern Force." It would be the last battleship battle in history as the Japanese force, which included two battleships, attempted to run the gauntlet through a trap set by the Americans.

The American force, including six battleships, awaited and managed to "cross the T" over the ragged Japanese line, completing the classic naval maneuver for the last time ever...
I wish people in these presentation would not use phrases like "for the last time ever"; as we will never be able to verify that, except possibly in a negative sense. Another one of their clips is called something like "The Last Great Tank Battle in History" and while I might hope that is true, again we will not know unless we see it disproved.

I could not find where Drachinifel discusses this particular battle. How do you feel about his presentations? There is a 77 minute video on youtube by the Naval Historical Foundation about this battle.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:34 am

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tlb wrote:So the question is: were the events accurately described, even though the visual footage might not be correct? In other words, is this a correct description of the battle?
The Battle of Leyte Gulf was fought near the Philippines over several days with a number of different engagements. The combined conflict made it the largest naval battle of the Second World War, and by some estimates, the largest naval battle in history.

More than 200,000 naval soldiers, auxiliary personnel, and officers were involved in the conflict between October 23d and 26th of 1944. The forces were mostly American and Australian on the Allied side against Imperial Japanese on the Axis side.

The naval battle was to support the amphibious invasion of Leyte in an effort to force the Japanese from the Philippine Archipelago. Doing so would begin to isolate the Japanese Empire from much of the oil and raw materials fueling their war efforts.

The battle is historically considered to have been divided into four separate fights: The Battle of Sibuyan Sea, the Battle of Surigao Strait, the Battle off Cape Engaño, and the Battle of Samar.

Paramount among the battles was the engagement at Surigao Strait, where the US Seventh Fleet Support Force almost wholly destroyed Japan's "Southern Force." It would be the last battleship battle in history as the Japanese force, which included two battleships, attempted to run the gauntlet through a trap set by the Americans.

The American force, including six battleships, awaited and managed to "cross the T" over the ragged Japanese line, completing the classic naval maneuver for the last time ever...
I wish people in these presentation would not use phrases like "for the last time ever"; as we will never be able to verify that, except possibly in a negative sense. Another one of their clips is called something like "The Last Great Tank Battle in History" and while I might hope that is true, again we will not know unless we see it disproved.

That's a reasonable enough brief overview of the fight. Mind you, it glosses over quite a bit. Like by the time the Japanese force got its 'T' crossed it was more a disorganized gaggle, and not a proper battle line, and by that point consisted of only a single battleship, one heavy cruiser, and and one destroyer.

And walked into the combined firepower of 6 US Battleships, 4 heavy cruisers (one Australian), 4 light cruisers. And that was after running the gauntlet of destroyers and PT boats. (There were 28 destroyers and 39 PT boats -- but I can't quickly verify how many DDs were back screening the battle line; though I know quite a few, as well as all the PT boats, had been deployed further up the Strait and has forced the Japanese to run a gauntlet of torpedoes before even reaching gun range of the battle line.

Of course even before the battle the entire Japanese "Southern Force", consisted of only 2 elderly battleships (commissioned in 1915 and 1917 respectively), a treaty era heavy cruiser, and four modern destroyers. And then the battleship Fuso, and three of the destroyers didn't survive the even aforementioned swarm of US PT boats and destroyers.

Incidentally the US Battleships involved were also of the WWI era; though thanks to construction slowdowns after the Armistice the last couple weren't actually commissioned until 1921.

So the last battleship on battleship fight of WWII was a 6 on 1 mobbing involving updated ships of the last war. (Though there were a number of additional engagements that almost happened during the remaining year or so of the war. In one case only being avoided because Admiral Lee, when offered the chance to take the US fast battleships up against one of the final one way missions of the Japanese navy, basically said 'no, don't bother calling off the carriers -- there's no need to go slug it out with them just to prove some kind of point')
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by kzt   » Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:19 am

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tlb wrote:So the question is: were the events accurately described, even though the visual footage might not be correct? In other words, is this a correct description of the battle?

Generally it is, but the occasionally glaring WTF video blows that up. Your video on the Battle of Cambrai might be narrated totally accurate, but when it features M1A2 and M2A3s as you describe the battle...
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by cthia   » Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:36 am

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kzt wrote:
tlb wrote:So the question is: were the events accurately described, even though the visual footage might not be correct? In other words, is this a correct description of the battle?

Generally it is, but the occasionally glaring WTF video blows that up. Your video on the Battle of Cambrai might be narrated totally accurate, but when it features M1A2 and M2A3s as you describe the battle...

If they are educational videos, I think they have to fill in the gaps when appropriate footage isn't available. Appropriate footage containing appropriate hardware may not be available. Besides, if they are educational videos, then their target audience probably won't know the difference between the hardware used. And in most cases might not even care. Most people simply want the events to be accurately described. They want to know what went on, and why.

The producers probably realize that purests, military historians, analysts and former military personnel can and will recognize the inconsistencies of the hardware used in the footage, but then, they are probably not among the target audience in the first place. And they will realize that what was used is strictly for dramatic effect.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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