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SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!

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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:44 am

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:After all, where were those 20 SD's at Galton built? I will continue to search for whatever it was that made me believe what I was being fed (a sleazy shot at O'Hanrahan).


Galton.

What proof is there that they were built at Galton? A lot of things don't sit right with me. Only 20 SDs. I don't recall any mention of there being any unfinished ships in the slips. Only 20 SDs were planned? For what?

Don't you wonder what capabilities those SDs had? Why build SDs if they are no more capable than the obsolete Solly junk? And if they are only on a par with SLN ships, then, again, why build them? Certainly not in anticipation to fight the SLN. The SLN couldn't have taken Galton even without the SDs.

So, I ask again, what was the meaning of those SDs? I suppose one could argue that Galton isn't aware of Darius and that they couldn't have come from Darius. But what about the Renaissance Factor? Where are the shipyards for the RF?

Galton isn't aware of Darius. Are they aware of the RF?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by tlb   » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:56 am

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cthia wrote:So, I ask again, what was the meaning of those SDs? I suppose one could argue that Galton isn't aware of Darius and that they couldn't have come from Darius. But what about the Renaissance Factor? Where are the shipyards for the RF?

Galton isn't aware of Darius. Are they aware of the RF?

In my first post in this thread, I stated my belief that Galton should not be aware of the Renaissance Factor, since it is not allowed to be aware of Darius. My reason was that the leadership and elements of the Navy at the RF know about Darius, so any datum that implicates the RF would serve as a lead to Darius.

Since we only learned of Galton in this book, I do not know what is significant. However, having a fully capable shipyard means that the simplest solution is that the ships were built there; therefore someone would have to supply stronger reasoning and evidence to support the idea that they were built elsewhere.

Without being permitted to know about the spider drive, then Galton's military knowledge is only somewhere between the Solarian League and the Grand Alliance (since they lack knowledge of the GA's best tech).
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:38 am

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:So, I ask again, what was the meaning of those SDs? I suppose one could argue that Galton isn't aware of Darius and that they couldn't have come from Darius. But what about the Renaissance Factor? Where are the shipyards for the RF?

Galton isn't aware of Darius. Are they aware of the RF?

In my first post in this thread, I stated my belief that Galton should not be aware of the Renaissance Factor, since it is not allowed to be aware of Darius. My reason was that the leadership and elements of the Navy at the RF know about Darius, so any datum that implicates the RF would serve as a lead to Darius.

Since we only learned of Galton in this book, I do not know what is significant. However, having a fully capable shipyard means that the simplest solution is that the ships were built there; therefore someone would have to supply stronger reasoning and evidence to support the idea that they were built elsewhere.

Without being permitted to know about the spider drive, then Galton's military knowledge is only somewhere between the Solarian League and the Grand Alliance (since they lack knowledge of the GA's best tech).

Agree about the RF.

Do you mean that Galton's military "knowledge" is somewhere between the two? Or rather their military "capability." Because the MA and Galton seem to be very knowledgeable about the GA's technology. Other than the new toys that were unveiled at Galton.

I still don't understand what reason Galton would have to build SDs that were so inferior to the enemy when they arrive. Unless they were built to fight off the occasional ship that may stumble upon them.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by tlb   » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:59 am

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cthia wrote:Do you mean that Galton's military "knowledge" is somewhere between the two? Or rather their military "capability." Because the MA and Galton seem to be very knowledgeable about the GA's technology. Other than the new toys that were unveiled at Galton.

I still don't understand what reason Galton would have to build SDs that were so inferior to the enemy when they arrive. Unless they were built to fight off the occasional ship that may stumble upon them.

I will accept either knowledge or capability or both.

Perhaps the point of the ships was for them to be sacrificed as part of "Alamo"; the lack of any major ships would be noticed.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:14 am

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Do you mean that Galton's military "knowledge" is somewhere between the two? Or rather their military "capability." Because the MA and Galton seem to be very knowledgeable about the GA's technology. Other than the new toys that were unveiled at Galton.

I still don't understand what reason Galton would have to build SDs that were so inferior to the enemy when they arrive. Unless they were built to fight off the occasional ship that may stumble upon them.

I will accept either knowledge or capability or both.

Perhaps the point of the ships was for them to be sacrificed as part of "Alamo"; the lack of any major ships would be noticed.

But, Galton was not aware that they were to be sacrificed. And since they were very knowledgeable of GA weapons, they should have known they were building coffins.

And building coffins is as insane for them as it would be for the SL.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by tlb   » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:39 am

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cthia wrote:But, Galton was not aware that they were to be sacrificed. And since they were very knowledgeable of GA weapons, they should have known they were building coffins.

And building coffins is as insane for them as it would be for the SL.

The topmost leadership was aware that they were a sacrifice, and the lower levels might not have known how close to coffins the ships were. After all the SLN went out to fight in what turned out to be coffins.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:31 pm

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cthia wrote:What proof is there that they were built at Galton? A lot of things don't sit right with me. Only 20 SDs. I don't recall any mention of there being any unfinished ships in the slips. Only 20 SDs were planned? For what?


Proof, none. But we have a lot of circumstantial evidence.

First, if the shipyards there aren't capable of producing the ships that are there, then the GA will wonder where they were built. Considering the whole point of the Alamo Contingency was to pretend that Galton was all there was to be seen, leaving this other big, gaping hole would have been stupid. And unlike the technology that Galton residents were not allowed to know about, they knew about the SDs and SD(P)s, maintained and ran them. So someone would know when they were delivered and who built them.

Second, that there were SD(P)s. 17 of them actually. Assuming the Carlucci Industry Shipyards in Erewhon finished their first 3 SD(P)s to both the ESN and MARSN, that means the Galton Navy possessed 85% of all the SD(P)s in the whole Galaxy outside of the GA. There is no other shipyard in the Galaxy capable of producing those ships. I'm sure that the ones in Darius have the technology, but the MAlign would not have shared this with anyone else, especially not Technodyne. If they had, then the SLN would have known much before now and would have risked the Plan.

Third, the pre-pod designs had to be built somewhere too. There were some 40 of them, which again makes the Galton System Navy the biggest Navy in capital ships in the Galaxy, aside from the GA and the SLN. I find it doubtful a single SD could have escaped notice of a known shipyard, much less 40 of them. So the only conclusion is that they were built at a secret shipyard, and that's what Galton was meant to be: a military-industrial system.

Fourth, that we weren't told there were unfinished ships in the yards does not mean there weren't.

Don't you wonder what capabilities those SDs had? Why build SDs if they are no more capable than the obsolete Solly junk? And if they are only on a par with SLN ships, then, again, why build them? Certainly not in anticipation to fight the SLN. The SLN couldn't have taken Galton even without the SDs.


For two reasons: first, because they had to build something. It's better to have an SD than to have none. Against the GF they're death-traps, sure, but they are good against anyone else. And you can bet they were more capable than the Scientist and Vega classes from the SLN, because the MAlign knew exactly what went into those and they were paying attention to the build-up in the Haven Sector, even prior to the first war. So I'd speculate that those ships were more capable than the PN DuQuesne- and Haven-class designs, though falling short of an RMN Sphinx or Gryphon class.

And if nothing else, they serve as platforms for training. The Galton Navy needed to train their spacers and officers somewhere.

Second, because they were likely built before the RMN and GSN SD(P)s were revealed. Unlike Darius, this is a system that had been building industry and shipyards for two centuries. They had always planned on building a Navy there. More importantly, they were building SDs when there was no spider drive yet, so SDs were the best that one could build.

So, I ask again, what was the meaning of those SDs? I suppose one could argue that Galton isn't aware of Darius and that they couldn't have come from Darius. But what about the Renaissance Factor? Where are the shipyards for the RF?


The RF couldn't have supplied this many ships. Or any ships. See above where I argue that a known shipyard could not accidentally lose a single SD, much less 40 or 60. They were built at a secret shipyard and there's no doubting this.

The RF also does not have the industry for this many ships. The Mannerheim Navy, which was the biggest in the RF, was also known to be "outsized" though likely smaller than the Beowulf one. That tells me they had maybe one or two squadrons of the wall, but it's still possible they had none and only had lots of battlecruiser squadrons (it was a BC squadron they sent to The Twins to await HMS Harvest Joy's transit). So that means that in the extreme case, the whole RFN now has four squadrons of the wall, which is about half of what the Galton Navy had. There's no way that the RF could have built 3x more ships than they used and no one would have noticed.
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:51 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Second, because they were likely built before the RMN and GSN SD(P)s were revealed. Unlike Darius, this is a system that had been building industry and shipyards for two centuries. They had always planned on building a Navy there. More importantly, they were building SDs when there was no spider drive yet, so SDs were the best that one could build.

That was my thinking. That these are older ships that aren't retired because Galton hasn't yet built enough SD(P)s to replace them.

After all, even even after nearly 10 years the RMN hadn't managed to replace all of its in-service SDs with SD(P)s -- and it has the most efficient yards in known space (and the finances of the Junction). Though, yeah, there were some political reasons for that. OTOH it was technically still at war and just had first-hand evidence of how much it needed those upgraded ships.

Still, Galton presumably replacing nearly 1/3 of its fleet with SD(P)s in that same decade (or less) is actually moving pretty quickly. Far quicker than anybody's normal replacement building cycle.

(Especially since they wouldn't have been contemplating hostilities anytime soon. And while that may have changed when Houdini was activated that's too recent to have let them complete, or even make major progress, on any new/emergency construction started in its wake)
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:32 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:After all, even even after nearly 10 years the RMN hadn't managed to replace all of its in-service SDs with SD(P)s -- and it has the most efficient yards in known space (and the finances of the Junction). Though, yeah, there were some political reasons for that. OTOH it was technically still at war and just had first-hand evidence of how much it needed those upgraded ships.


True, until Lester Tourville and Genevieve Chin paid a visit to Manticore and helped the process along. For a moment, all that was left of the RMN wall was Eighth Fleet (renamed as Home Fleet) and that was an entirely SD(P) formation.

I don't know if they had time to reactivate the mothballed Sphinx and Gryphons. The Python Lump was exiting shipyards in a few months time, so there was no point in doing something that would take longer or at least as long. And this is assuming the reactivation didn't need those very slips that were occupied by the brand, new Invictus.

Still, Galton presumably replacing nearly 1/3 of its fleet with SD(P)s in that same decade (or less) is actually moving pretty quickly. Far quicker than anybody's normal replacement building cycle.

(Especially since they wouldn't have been contemplating hostilities anytime soon. And while that may have changed when Houdini was activated that's too recent to have let them complete, or even make major progress, on any new/emergency construction started in its wake)


I don't think they were replacing because I think they would be expecting hostilities. They knew that Oyster Bay had been launched and they thought they had supplied the weapons. So they knew they were in a state of war with the Grand Alliance. The GA even said so.

The RMN did not decommission any of its DNs it built before the war with Haven. The only three SDs it did decommission were the three original Manticore-class ones. So it stands to reason the Galton Navy would be keeping all the toys it could build, especially when they knew they were facing a GF with 4 to 5x their number and more than that in tonnage (and this is just the GF, not counting the ships not assigned by the GA component navies to the GF). Heck, when the GF drew down on the Sol occupation, it left "merely" four dozen SD(P)s, which was more than a match for the entire Galton Navy!
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Re: SPOILER SEASON IS OVER FOR TEiF!!!
Post by tlb   » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:54 pm

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Another thing that we would expect to find at Galton (and would be suspicious if not found) is documentation on the biologic based nanotech used for assassination. However it would be possible to just have a general discussion of the technology in the libraries and to refer to a classified database on one of the orbitals slated for destruction as part of "Alamo" (this would not have to be a ruse, just a normal part of security).
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