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Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?

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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:13 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13780
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:The MA is demanding peace. They used whatever means they thought necessary to get to the negotiating table. And there is no need for bloodshed, unless your actions bid it necessary. Accept the demands and we will return your Queen.

Call the demands whatever you like. What is implied is that the Galaxy knows Manticore agreed to the demands. And the Queen was returned no worse for wear.

You say the Malign is demanding "peace" in order to return the Queen. I think we are all in agreement that if "peace" is the only demand made, then the paper will be signed and the Queen will be returned.

Here is the part of the claimed Malign demand that I do not understand and I need your explanation: the Malign already has as much "peace" as they ever will get, because no one knows where they are except for the Renaissance Factor guards at their gate. So what additional "peace" have they achieved by this ploy? Meanwhile the kidnapping advertises to the galaxy that this criminal conspiracy exists (which seems to make them less safe).

Is this question unanswerable (because you seem to be ignoring it)?

Fair enough, but it isn't that I've been ignoring it. I have been busy. But do give me credit for attempting to work my way thru the queue, in case you haven't noticed the recurrent double, triple and sometimes quadruple posts I've made on recent occasions in a single thread; due in part to the inexhaustible supply of information I gained from Ruth's spy stint - in case you are not aware of the need to decrypt most of that information - in reference to the current trending posts. All fires that I started. I tend to make trouble for myself. Especially when many of the fires tend to be controversial.

At any rate, I did partially respond to it in dribs and drabs. But in a nutshell in an attempt to weave together the tapestry ...

The MA knows there is a possibility they might be discovered. So, this would be a preemptive strike to head that off.

It wouldn't matter even if the cease-fire was accepted in as much desperation that Saint-Just was feeling when Hamish was pushing deep inside Haven territory on a beeline for Noveau Paris. It wouldn't be the first time Manticore was short-stopped. But this time it would be for a very important cause. That cause being for both something and for someone who is truly worth it - truly worth almost any price or risk, short of surrender.

Those two things would be "The Honor of the Queen." And, the object of that honor, which all of you don't seem to realize is? THE QUEEN! Duh!

Actually there is a third element that I pointed out, that factors in with Malign design ...

The demands would be made in front of the Galaxy. The demand for peace. The Manticoran government has an important reputation to coddle. That reputation has stood them in very good stead. In many ways that reputation is, and has proved itself to be, just as important a resource as Project Gram. (I can list the many ways if need be. They are numerous.)

Not to mention the fact that if a ruthless enemy offers you peace in front of God and the Galaxy, you would lose respect if you denied them that chance. As was the politically motivated case - philosophically and psychologically - behind having to accept Saint-Just's offer. And...

And the fact that you seem to miss that the Galaxy will certainly blame you when your illogical intransigent refusal to accept that peace caused hell to rain down on the "entire" Galaxy. Not just you. Especially considering the fact that you literally killed your own Queen to accomplish something so selfish and illogical.

Not to mention the fact that you, most of your government and the entire line of succession is now in therapy because of the inability to look into mirrors.

And, an important metal - forged in fire - that has been the building and sustaining lifeblood of the MBS has been needlessly sacrificed.

Sacrificed for a few pawns. Pawns who were lost as well when they committed suicide. Which represents a negative gain in attrition and a woefully inferior position.

Literally thrown under the bus. The Soul of Steel.

Morale is shamefully looking good right now. As if. :roll: :!:


.
Last edited by cthia on Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:01 pm

tlb
Admiral

Posts: 2227
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

cthia wrote:The MA is demanding peace. They used whatever means they thought necessary to get to the negotiating table. And there is no need for bloodshed, unless your actions bid it necessary. Accept the demands and we will return your Queen.

Call the demands whatever you like. What is implied is that the Galaxy knows Manticore agreed to the demands. And the Queen was returned no worse for wear.

tlb wrote:You say the Malign is demanding "peace" in order to return the Queen. I think we are all in agreement that if "peace" is the only demand made, then the paper will be signed and the Queen will be returned.

Here is the part of the claimed Malign demand that I do not understand and I need your explanation: the Malign already has as much "peace" as they ever will get, because no one knows where they are except for the Renaissance Factor guards at their gate. So what additional "peace" have they achieved by this ploy? Meanwhile the kidnapping advertises to the galaxy that this criminal conspiracy exists (which seems to make them less safe).

Is this question unanswerable (because you seem to be ignoring it)?

cthia wrote:Fair enough, but it isn't that I've been ignoring it. I have been busy. But do give me credit for attempting to work my way thru the queue, in case you haven't noticed the recurrent double, triple and sometimes quadruple posts I've made on recent occasions in a single thread; due in part to the inexhaustible supply of information I gained from Ruth's spy stint - in case you are not aware of the need to decrypt most of that information - in reference to the current trending posts. All fires that I started. I tend to make trouble for myself. Especially when many of the fires tend to be controversial.

At any rate, I did partially respond to it in dribs and drabs. But in a nutshell in an attempt to weave together the tapestry ...

The MA knows there is a possibility they might be discovered. So, this would be a preemptive strike to head that off.

It wouldn't matter even if the cease-fire was accepted in as much desperation that Saint-Just was feeling when Hamish was pushing deep inside Haven territory on a beeline for Noveau Paris. It wouldn't be the first time Manticore was short-stopped. But this time it would be for a very important cause. That cause being for both something and for someone who is truly worth it - truly worth almost any price or risk, short of surrender.

Those two things would be "The Honor of the Queen." And, the object of that honor, which all of you don't seem to realize is? THE QUEEN! Duh!

Actually there is a third element that I pointed out, that factors in with Malign design ...

The demands would be made in front of the Galaxy. The demand for peace. The Manticoran government has an important reputation to coddle. That reputation has stood them in very good stead. In many ways that reputation is, and has proved itself to be, just as important a resource as Project Gram. (I can list the many ways if need be. They are numerous.)

Not to mention the fact that if a ruthless enemy offers you peace in front of God and the Galaxy, you would lose respect if you denied them that chance. As was the politically motivated case - philosophically and psychologically - behind having to accept Saint-Just's offer. And...

And the fact that you seem to miss that the Galaxy will certainly blame you when your illogical intransigent refusal to accept that peace caused hell to rain down on the "entire" Galaxy. Not just you. Especially considering the fact that you literally killed your own Queen to accomplish something so selfish and illogical.

Not to mention the fact that you, most of your government and the entire line of succession is now in therapy because of the inability to look into mirrors.

And, an important metal - forged in fire - that has been the building and sustaining lifeblood of the MBS has been needlessly sacrificed.

Sacrificed for a few pawns. Pawns who were lost as well when they committed suicide. Which represents a negative gain in attrition and a woefully inferior position.

Literally thrown under the bus. The Soul of Steel.

Moral is shamefully looking good right now. As if. :roll: :!:

Again, the Malign is not any safer, because the honor of which you speak is only binding on Manticore and I have pointed out that there are others with a least as great a score to settle: Beowulf, the Andermani, Haven, Torch, the Solarian League and the new government at Mesa. So Manticore can sit back and allow all these others to continue the search (unless the Malign manages to kidnap leaders from all those nations).

Also the Malign is not physically any more safe, because that safety lies in the lack of knowledge of Darius. Perhaps there are things that could be done to increase that physical safety, but kidnapping is not on that list. The leadership at Darius needs to constantly search for more hideouts, to guard against Darius being found. Without a new place to hide the Detweiler Plan would die with the capture of Darius.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:27 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13780
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:The MA is demanding peace. They used whatever means they thought necessary to get to the negotiating table. And there is no need for bloodshed, unless your actions bid it necessary. Accept the demands and we will return your Queen.

Call the demands whatever you like. What is implied is that the Galaxy knows Manticore agreed to the demands. And the Queen was returned no worse for wear.

tlb wrote:You say the Malign is demanding "peace" in order to return the Queen. I think we are all in agreement that if "peace" is the only demand made, then the paper will be signed and the Queen will be returned.

Here is the part of the claimed Malign demand that I do not understand and I need your explanation: the Malign already has as much "peace" as they ever will get, because no one knows where they are except for the Renaissance Factor guards at their gate. So what additional "peace" have they achieved by this ploy? Meanwhile the kidnapping advertises to the galaxy that this criminal conspiracy exists (which seems to make them less safe).

Is this question unanswerable (because you seem to be ignoring it)?

cthia wrote:Fair enough, but it isn't that I've been ignoring it. I have been busy. But do give me credit for attempting to work my way thru the queue, in case you haven't noticed the recurrent double, triple and sometimes quadruple posts I've made on recent occasions in a single thread; due in part to the inexhaustible supply of information I gained from Ruth's spy stint - in case you are not aware of the need to decrypt most of that information - in reference to the current trending posts. All fires that I started. I tend to make trouble for myself. Especially when many of the fires tend to be controversial.

At any rate, I did partially respond to it in dribs and drabs. But in a nutshell in an attempt to weave together the tapestry ...

The MA knows there is a possibility they might be discovered. So, this would be a preemptive strike to head that off.

It wouldn't matter even if the cease-fire was accepted in as much desperation that Saint-Just was feeling when Hamish was pushing deep inside Haven territory on a beeline for Noveau Paris. It wouldn't be the first time Manticore was short-stopped. But this time it would be for a very important cause. That cause being for both something and for someone who is truly worth it - truly worth almost any price or risk, short of surrender.

Those two things would be "The Honor of the Queen." And, the object of that honor, which all of you don't seem to realize is? THE QUEEN! Duh!

Actually there is a third element that I pointed out, that factors in with Malign design ...

The demands would be made in front of the Galaxy. The demand for peace. The Manticoran government has an important reputation to coddle. That reputation has stood them in very good stead. In many ways that reputation is, and has proved itself to be, just as important a resource as Project Gram. (I can list the many ways if need be. They are numerous.)

Not to mention the fact that if a ruthless enemy offers you peace in front of God and the Galaxy, you would lose respect if you denied them that chance. As was the politically motivated case - philosophically and psychologically - behind having to accept Saint-Just's offer. And...

And the fact that you seem to miss that the Galaxy will certainly blame you when your illogical intransigent refusal to accept that peace caused hell to rain down on the "entire" Galaxy. Not just you. Especially considering the fact that you literally killed your own Queen to accomplish something so selfish and illogical.

Not to mention the fact that you, most of your government and the entire line of succession is now in therapy because of the inability to look into mirrors.

And, an important metal - forged in fire - that has been the building and sustaining lifeblood of the MBS has been needlessly sacrificed.

Sacrificed for a few pawns. Pawns who were lost as well when they committed suicide. Which represents a negative gain in attrition and a woefully inferior position.

Literally thrown under the bus. The Soul of Steel.

Moral is shamefully looking good right now. As if. :roll: :!:

Again, the Malign is not any safer, because the honor of which you speak is only binding on Manticore and I have pointed out that there are others with a least as great a score to settle: Beowulf, the Andermani, Haven, Torch, the Solarian League and the new government at Mesa. So Manticore can sit back and allow all these others to continue the search (unless the Malign manages to kidnap leaders from all those nations).

Also the Malign is not physically any more safe, because that safety lies in the lack of knowledge of Darius. Perhaps there are things that could be done to increase that physical safety, but kidnapping is not on that list. The leadership at Darius needs to constantly search for more hideouts, to guard against Darius being found. Without a new place to hide the Detweiler Plan would die with the capture of Darius.

Actually, the stated demands require the following agreement of the entire Grand "Alliance." That very well may turn out to be a political weakness of the alliance. The fact that they can be held as one unit, collectively. Albeit, I admit that might turn out to be difficult with many a devil in the details.

Your second paragraph is part and parcel the reason for the entire preemptive strike of kidnapping the Queen in the first place.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:37 pm

tlb
Admiral

Posts: 2227
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

cthia wrote:Actually, the stated demands require the following agreement of the entire Grand "Alliance." That very well may turn out to be a political weakness of the alliance. The fact that they can be held as one unit, collectively. Albeit, I admit that might turn out to be difficult with many a devil in the details.

Your second paragraph is part and parcel the reason for the entire preemptive strike of kidnapping the Queen in the first place.

That is not a weakness in the alliance, it means all your emotional arguments for accepting might fall on deaf ears; as they only apply to Manticore. Anyway among the nations listed, some are not part of the Alliance.

So I disagree. Perhaps we will see; otherwise it may be like other of your schemes that do not seem to be part of RFC's plan.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:42 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2458
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

cthia wrote:Actually, the stated demands require the following agreement of the entire Grand "Alliance." That very well may turn out to be a political weakness of the alliance. The fact that they can be held as one unit, collectively. Albeit, I admit that might turn out to be difficult with many a devil in the details.

Your second paragraph is part and parcel the reason for the entire preemptive strike of kidnapping the Queen in the first place.


In other words, the GA would lose something in accepting the demands for the Queen's return. Contrary to what you've been saying all along.

So we go back to the question of whether the GA as a whole should accept this demand for the return of the Queen.

And besides, it doesn't bind the SL, who still has a motivation to search for the MAlign. We've seen in TEiF that the intelligence services are collaborating with one another, so undertaking this ploy is not very smart in the first place.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:59 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13780
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Actually, the stated demands require the following agreement of the entire Grand "Alliance." That very well may turn out to be a political weakness of the alliance. The fact that they can be held as one unit, collectively. Albeit, I admit that might turn out to be difficult with many a devil in the details.

Your second paragraph is part and parcel the reason for the entire preemptive strike of kidnapping the Queen in the first place.

That is not a weakness in the alliance, it means all your emotional arguments for accepting might fall on deaf ears; as they only apply to Manticore. Anyway among the nations listed, some are not part of the Alliance.

So I disagree. Perhaps we will see; otherwise it may be like other of your schemes that do not seem to be part of RFC's plan.

Again, if the demands are met that the entirety of the Alliance accepts, and that doesn't strike me as unlikely since the Queen's life is at stake, then it very well may turn out to be an immediate weakness, of sorts.

And, yes, there may be other navies left that can go after them that are not part of the Alliance. But then, perhaps the Alignment is thinking in terms of attrition by eliminating as many pieces off the board as possible. After all, they have shown an unfailing fondness and affinity to go swashbuckling on the chessboard.

Why must you always characterise my willingness to look under the skin or peer under heavy rocks as a scheme of my own. IOW, what if the Queen is kidnapped for ransom. Which isn't exactly a zero possibility.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:45 pm

Brigade XO
Admiral

Posts: 2790
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

Does anybody actually believe that the MA would honor whatever the terms they propose?

They have a habit of killing gobs of people to advance their objectives and painting others as the ones responsible for what they have done. They also have killed millions of people to try and cover their tracks. Mesa is one example and then we have this last round with their arsenal location.

Their object to be in control of the directed uplift of the species with themselves at a God level. They demand all morals be adjusted to their own somewhat twisted view of everything and any individual except the approved (there is that whole Long Range Planning Board thing) is expendable as a lab rat....not even a rat, just a sample of bacteria to be meddled with and if not meeting it's expectations of some advancement then increate it. Bacteria, rats, normal humans, genetic save experiment in interesting things you can to too humans....all the same.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:45 pm

Brigade XO
Admiral

Posts: 2790
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

Does anybody actually believe that the MA would honor whatever the terms they propose?

They have a habit of killing gobs of people to advance their objectives and painting others as the ones responsible for what they have done. They also have killed millions of people to try and cover their tracks. Mesa is one example and then we have this last round with their arsenal location.

Their object to be in control of the directed uplift of the species with themselves at a God level. They demand all morals be adjusted to their own somewhat twisted view of everything and any individual except the approved (there is that whole Long Range Planning Board thing) is expendable as a lab rat....not even a rat, just a sample of bacteria to be meddled with and if not meeting it's expectations of some advancement then increate it. Bacteria, rats, normal humans, genetic save experiment in interesting things you can to too humans....all the same.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:19 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2458
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

Brigade XO wrote:Does anybody actually believe that the MA would honor whatever the terms they propose?


No and the GA knows that too.

If the MAlign violates the agreement, then it becomes void and that releases the GA from any obligations it contracted by accepting the agreement. So what does the MAlign gain from having the agreement in the first place?

Time. Same thing that OSJ was trying to gain.

In the time that the GA chooses to respect the agreement, the MAlign can do a lot. They can, as you propose, attrition all the other powers. They can build up their military strength to face up to the GA. They can insert a genetic time bomb into the populace. Or many other nefarious plots.

So I ask again, one more time: is it worth the trade-off to give the MAlign what it wants?
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:33 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2458
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

Let's look at it from the MAlign's perspective

Let's ignore the how this comes to pass. I find it highly unlikely it could, but let's assume it did. Whatever actions led to the capture of the Queen and her removal from a place where she could readily be rescued from are not important, nor are the decisions to led to this outcome. They could be serendipitous and the MAlign simply found itself with an opportunity.

Now it has two choices to make: to release her back or not; to reveal who it was who did the kidnapping or not. This is in addition to any demands they make.

Obviously, one of the four choices is not going to be chosen: that of releasing the Queen back and not make any demands. They gain nothing from this, when the effort has already been taken and there are better options. The closest to this scenario is releasing her back with an implanted compulsion or nanobot infection, which would cause her to do some damage. Even if she's discovered the moment the first treecat lays eyes on her, the damage is done, because she dies on GA soil.

They could simply kill her without returning or negotiating. If the hostage is important enough that the GA government would agree to certain terms to get her back, then the hostage's death is also impactful. So the MAlign has to decide whether they'd want to return her or not. So the question from their point of view is what's better for the long-term plan: the death of a beloved leader, or whatever agreement they could get?

The MAlign has no intention of honouring the agreement. Why should they expect the GA to? The GA was victim of the Yawata, Blackbird and Beowulf Strikes, which killed 45-50 million people. So do they really expect to gain much from returning the Queen without a nanobot compulsion? More importantly, do they gain more than simply killing her or causing her to be killed by the Queen's Own or the treecats?

They could pin the blame on someone else. They'd even sacrifice a member of the RF if it suited their needs. Let's say they sacrifice Visigoth (because Mesa is no longer an ally anyway) and pin the blame there. They've managed to get the Queen killed without revealing themselves.

Or they could reveal themselves, again, to the Galaxy. But in order for this to happen, I'd expect to be a huge upside for the MAlign. Right now, at the end of TEiF, there's reasonable doubt that the MAlign is defeated and gone, but there wouldn't be if it revealed itself again. And it would need to somehow authenticate itself for the agreement to become binding. That's something it's never done. It's never been overt, period. Therefore, I find that the MAlign revealing itself to get an agreement has a probability nearly indistinguishable from zero. The chance that they do that for something as flimsy as "you won't attack us while we take over the Galaxy" is zero.

So, from the MAlign's perspective, they have several options they could undertake, having unexpected succeeded in kidnapping the Queen, that could have bigger upside and smaller downside than the agreement that cthia proposes. And as we've often heard, "these are alphas" so they're usually thinking very rationally. Moreover, those are Detweilers, who've never revealed themselves.
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