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Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?

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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:16 pm

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cthia wrote:Well, they did suggest to O'Hanrahan that they were almost ready to come out into the open except for the latest snafu.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Which is a pack of lies. I don't understand how O'Harahan fell for it.

The reason that O'Harahan fell for it very clear from the book, she thinks that there are two hidden Alliances: the bad or malign one represented by Galton and the good or benign that she supports (represented by Darius). Yes, it is an enormous lie; but it is a believable story for her, because she wants to be working with the good guys.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:12 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Well, they did suggest to O'Hanrahan that they were almost ready to come out into the open except for the latest snafu.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Which is a pack of lies. I don't understand how O'Harahan fell for it.

The reason that O'Harahan fell for it very clear from the book, she thinks that there are two hidden Alliances: the bad or malign one represented by Galton and the good or benign that she supports (represented by Darius). Yes, it is an enormous lie; but it is a believable story for her, because she wants to be working with the good guys.

I agree it is most likely a pack of lies.

However, and I ask again, why does coming out into the open have to be synonymous with revealing their location?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:27 pm

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cthia wrote:If the MA gets a second chance in life by getting this agreement, then why would they need to continue to do the things they did? After all, they were planning to come out into the open anyways. Does that include divulging their location? It shouldn't. Remaining hidden is their right. It is a built-in invisible wall of protection. No different than a Bolthole.

cthia wrote:However, and I ask again, why does coming out into the open have to be synonymous with revealing their location?

You are correct that coming out into the open need not imply revealing the location of Darius.

However, why would we think that they were planning to come out into the open before they had achieved dictatorial control over humanity? Unless you think the Malign have given up on Galaxy domination (which would be the only reason for changing behavior)? Since their plan was to use the Renaissance Factor as a front for this takeover, I doubt that that they were going to be open before then; since that would cloud the RF connection.

Of course, the only difference between Bolthole and Darius is the intention behind being hidden; so more like Bolthole under the Peoples' Republic of Haven.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:44 pm

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I don't see the Alignment giving up their plans as the overlords and arbitrator of everything human. That is what "The Plan" has evolved to even if they still mouth the words and dreams of ongoing uplift.
Did you miss the couple of side pieces in the books about the very careful rewriting of accepted history of the Alignment to edit out all the messy "wipe all these people out to keep them from telling anybody about what they were doing in our name and in our employ of good little mass assassins."? All the backstory has been redacted and reorganized for the non Star Line population of Darius. Plan Alamo was specifically written to obliterate all sorts of people and records at Galton--including the suicide of everybody who knows the real story of Galton and anything about the connection with any other place, let alone something called Darius.
The RF is also in a variation of all of this.

So, no, I don't see them becoming peace loving nice people.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by Relax   » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:08 am

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Brigade XO wrote:I don't see the Alignment giving up their plans as the overlords and arbitrator of everything human. That is what "The Plan" has evolved to even if they still mouth the words and dreams of ongoing uplift.
Did you miss the couple of side pieces in the books about the very careful rewriting of accepted history of the Alignment
So, no, I don't see them becoming peace loving nice people.

Does anyone know what Operation Keelhaul was from WWII...? Keelhaul, conveniently left out of all history books, was a UK/US operation which sent 2 Million Russians, Cosaks, Poles, Yugoslavs, Italians, etc at gunpoint to their deaths(back to the USSR where most were murdered) to get back ~ 20,000 USA/UK personnel which the USSR would not release. Even though ~1 Million of them had been out of the USSR for going on 10-->25+ years since the Civil war. Most of whom were hiding, working, fighting in Germany, Netherlands etc and even fought for the Germans against the USSR as they HATED the Communists. The Communists demanded their repatriation as they could not let this symbol of hatred for everything they stood for and had knowledge of all of the genocidal murders perpetuated by the USSR which would have DESTROYED the USSR's ability to gain technology from the west... After all it was Commies in both the USA/UK which were funneling technology to the USSR as they agreed with the utopian fool premise of Communism. This was a big goal of Stalin's in Yalta.

When reading the FULL account of history, not the headlines of chapters, one gets the obvious impression that Politicians do the convenient thing EVERY time even when they are said to do something great. Just look at the headlines from the Cold war for the most part. Once you actually dig down, there were obvious reasons why leaders in the USSR/USA backed down at different points and had next to nothing to do with being 'hard nosed' diplomats. The rare, very RARE instances when politicians say, step down after 8 years of being president setting precedent for civil handing over of power after a fixed period of time is the extreme rarity and not only that gave freedom to all of his slaves by setting them up with money etc. Guess that is why we have named a city/state, enormous numbers of streets, counties etc after the man and is on the USA $1 bill. Washington. The very rare exception

So, who, which, what, where has the MALIGN edited out of history books just as operation Keelhaul has been? I am sure it is WELL groomed with a VERY fine comb.
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:12 am

cthia
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Relax wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:I don't see the Alignment giving up their plans as the overlords and arbitrator of everything human. That is what "The Plan" has evolved to even if they still mouth the words and dreams of ongoing uplift.
Did you miss the couple of side pieces in the books about the very careful rewriting of accepted history of the Alignment
So, no, I don't see them becoming peace loving nice people.

Does anyone know what Operation Keelhaul was from WWII...? Keelhaul, conveniently left out of all history books, was a UK/US operation which sent 2 Million Russians, Cosaks, Poles, Yugoslavs, Italians, etc at gunpoint to their deaths(back to the USSR where most were murdered) to get back ~ 20,000 USA/UK personnel which the USSR would not release. Even though ~1 Million of them had been out of the USSR for going on 10-->25+ years since the Civil war. Most of whom were hiding, working, fighting in Germany, Netherlands etc and even fought for the Germans against the USSR as they HATED the Communists. The Communists demanded their repatriation as they could not let this symbol of hatred for everything they stood for and had knowledge of all of the genocidal murders perpetuated by the USSR which would have DESTROYED the USSR's ability to gain technology from the west... After all it was Commies in both the USA/UK which were funneling technology to the USSR as they agreed with the utopian fool premise of Communism. This was a big goal of Stalin's in Yalta.

When reading the FULL account of history, not the headlines of chapters, one gets the obvious impression that Politicians do the convenient thing EVERY time even when they are said to do something great. Just look at the headlines from the Cold war for the most part. Once you actually dig down, there were obvious reasons why leaders in the USSR/USA backed down at different points and had next to nothing to do with being 'hard nosed' diplomats. The rare, very RARE instances when politicians say, step down after 8 years of being president setting precedent for civil handing over of power after a fixed period of time is the extreme rarity and not only that gave freedom to all of his slaves by setting them up with money etc. Guess that is why we have named a city/state, enormous numbers of streets, counties etc after the man and is on the USA $1 bill. Washington. The very rare exception

So, who, which, what, where has the MALIGN edited out of history books just as operation Keelhaul has been? I am sure it is WELL groomed with a VERY fine comb.

This is a very interesting post, Relax. Although it makes me want to puke. Wholesale killing in job lots tend to do that to me. I wasn't aware of any of that. I've often admitted that History was never my strong suit. So, even if it hadn't been redacted from the pages, I probably wouldn't have been aware of it. The overactive brain in my head has always provided me with visual images of killing and it makes me sick. When I was a kid it was somewhat debilitating. Even news broadcasts were difficult to watch. The mere mention of a baby being found in a dumpster crying, immediately put me there at the scene. In a dumpster. With rats and rodents crawling all around and all over me and the baby. News broadcasts can be as sickening as history.

At any rate, after wiping my mouth and gargling, what would you suggest is the convenient thing to do here? For Manticore it would seem to be to agree to the demands and get the Queen back.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:26 am

cthia
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cthia wrote:Also, we have no idea what glue the Soul of Steel wields to keep her government functioning. There is no guarantee that Beth's successor will command the same power or allegiance. You don't want to find out the hard way just how valuable an asset you gave up.


...just how valuable an asset and position you gave up.

For instance. How long has Queen Elizabeth ruled since her father's assassination? She has led Manticore for a very long time. It takes a long time to horse trade your way into her particular political position of power, which we all know is a tedious balancing act that can tip over at any time.

I don't think any of you are taking into account the possible lost of "position" that changing rulers can cause. Not to mention the loss of momentum. It isn't that the Peep's were wrong about their tactics and the possible effects of a successful assassination. It was extremely possible the next ruler and associated government wouldn't be up to the task at hand. A 'Soul of Steel' is an unnatural resource. Quite rare.

On the chessboard, the development of your pieces (government, trust, military, lobbyists (Cathy Montaigne), foreign relations, allies and spies) takes time. Lots of it. A lifetime in most cases. As it is on the chessboard, one wrong move can upset the entire board as each piece and move was predicated on the previous move that is made with several more moves planned in advance. All of a sudden your momentum is disrupted, your tactical and strategic situation has changed across all boundaries political and naval ...

Your Queen is in check, threatened to be removed from the board. Your position will be very different. Untenable? Are sure sure?

It is like playing Jenga with a house of cards. Remove the wrong piece and the house comes tumbling down.

Have you ever found yourself in a hopeless position on the chessboard because of the unexpected removal of one piece? No? Surely you have never played against my niece.


P.S. If you haven't watched the series The Queen's Gambit then do yourself a favor. It is a great series! And maybe you won't be reminded of my niece. The little snot.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:00 pm

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cthia wrote:I don't think any of you are taking into account the possible lost of "position" that changing rulers can cause.


Yes, we are.

Your Queen is in check, threatened to be removed from the board. Your position will be very different. Untenable? Are sure sure?


Again, it's a lose-lose situation. The question is which one is the least bad of the alternatives.

We've said, time and again, that if the offer from the MAlign is "peace, cease-fire," then the Government will accept and get the Queen back. Then continue searching for Darius and provoke them, so they can either show they really meant peace or violating their own clauses for cease-fire. And besides, you can always declare war again, with Parliament's approval.

We just think the chance that the MAlign offers those terms is ZERO.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:00 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I don't think any of you are taking into account the possible lost of "position" that changing rulers can cause.


Yes, we are.

Your Queen is in check, threatened to be removed from the board. Your position will be very different. Untenable? Are sure sure?


Again, it's a lose-lose situation. The question is which one is the least bad of the alternatives.

We've said, time and again, that if the offer from the MAlign is "peace, cease-fire," then the Government will accept and get the Queen back. Then continue searching for Darius and provoke them, so they can either show they really meant peace or violating their own clauses for cease-fire. And besides, you can always declare war again, with Parliament's approval.

We just think the chance that the MAlign offers those terms is ZERO.

No, that is not how I recall it. You and tlb stated acceptance only of the cease-fire, though tlb seems to be on the fence with that. So too are you straddling the fence as I recall, as witnessed in this post. You are not accepting the demands in their entirety. There are three distinct demands. A cease-fire being only one of the three demands. The MA doesn't really need a cease-fire at the moment, because they have that by design. They are hidden.

Their third demand is peace. I don't think the action of trying to instigate a war by provocation is found in the meaning of peace. Besides, that is the sleazy tactic the MA used by pitting the RMN against the SL. Are you no better than they?

Always remember, "The Honor of the Queen."

And... one thing Honor will never do is to allow the RMN to become The MA.

So, all or nothing. It is "your testicles" in a vise. Not ours.


P.S. I don't see it as a lose-lose situation for Manticore. A recovered lost Queen is priceless. And nobody had to surrender to do so. No demolished infrastructure.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:28 pm

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cthia wrote:If the MA gets a second chance in life by getting this agreement, then why would they need to continue to do the things they did? After all, they were planning to come out into the open anyways


You are correct that coming out into the open need not imply revealing the location of Darius.

But why do you think that they are planning to come out into the open before they had achieved dictatorial control over humanity? Do you think the Malign have given up on the plan for Galaxy domination (which would be the only reason for changing behavior)? Since their plan was to use the Renaissance Factor as a front for this takeover, I doubt that that they were going to be open before then; since that would cloud the RF connection.

Let's be clear, when O'Hanrahan's contact told her that that they would have come into the open but for the current snafu, that was a lie said to comfort the news woman into thinking she was working for the good guys. But the only good guys are the ones that were left behind on Mesa.

We learned in UH that there are two Mesan Alignments: the bad one that we have known about since about The Shadow of Saganami (2004), which has the Detweiler Plan for genetic domination and fled Mesa under cover of Houdini; and the good one that is faithful to the original ideas of the founding Leonard Detweiler.

That Benign Alignment is now part of the government of Mesa and they are the ones that could see their dream come true. People are agreeable to a loosening of the Beowulf Code.

The Malign Alignment is no closer to their plans coming true, since the Renaissance Factor is in no position to consolidate control of humanity. If they were to come into the open, they would have to explain about all those people that died during Houdini.

As for the question about a kidnapped Queen: I do not care, I will think about it if RFC every writes it.
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