Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:50 am

tlb
Admiral

Posts: 2775
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

cthia wrote:Heck, I believe Grayson would have made huge concessions to Haven to get Honor back in the wake of her torture. And she wasn't even the Protector.

Although it is true that the Protector was so convinced that Honor would die in the fight against Burdette, that he was prepared to let William Fitzclarence walk away free; before Honor stopped him and forced the duel (thereby saving the Protector's honor) - that is different from bowing to an enemy that shows itself to be so unscrupulous as to torture an prisoner.

In WW2 the Japanese would execute some prisoners in an effort to show how ruthless they were. Instead of having the intended effect of making the Americans afraid to fight; it made them so angry and eager to fight and kill the Japanese, that the command had to bribe soldiers with ice cream to get them to bring in prisoners for interrogation.

The simple fact is that an enemy which cannot be trusted to treat prisoners correctly, then cannot be trusted to carry out an exchange. With the capabilities of CGI in the Honorverse, it is not even possible to be sure the captive is still alive: witness how believable the realistic HD replay of Honor's "execution" was.
Top
Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by Theemile   » Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:22 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4605
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Heck, I believe Grayson would have made huge concessions to Haven to get Honor back in the wake of her torture. And she wasn't even the Protector.

Although it is true that the Protector was so convinced that Honor would die in the fight against Burdette, that he was prepared to let William Fitzclarence walk away free; before Honor stopped him and forced the duel (thereby saving the Protector's honor) - that is different from bowing to an enemy that shows itself to be so unscrupulous as to torture an prisoner.

In WW2 the Japanese would execute some prisoners in an effort to show how ruthless they were. Instead of having the intended effect of making the Americans afraid to fight; it made them so angry and eager to fight and kill the Japanese, that the command had to bribe soldiers with ice cream to get them to bring in prisoners for interrogation.

The simple fact is that an enemy which cannot be trusted to treat prisoners correctly, then cannot be trusted to carry out an exchange. With the capabilities of CGI in the Honorverse, it is not even possible to be sure the captive is still alive: witness how believable the realistic HD replay of Honor's "execution" was.


If memory serves, Honor's (and her Grayson and Manty staff) thoughts on Grayson's reaction to knowing about her survival, was that Grayson would pull all available units and mount an expedition to secure Honor, at the expense of their current Alliance Tasking.

On the Side, See the 8th Fleet Grayson contingent's actions at Basilisk - They had secretly pre-planned an overwhelming Alpha Strike against the outnumbered attacking PRN fleet and launched without White Haven's order. The Launch code was definitely showing the Grayson thinking about their Loss of Honor.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:32 pm

tlb
Admiral

Posts: 2775
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

Theemile wrote:If memory serves, Honor's (and her Grayson and Manty staff) thoughts on Grayson's reaction to knowing about her survival, was that Grayson would pull all available units and mount an expedition to secure Honor, at the expense of their current Alliance Tasking.

On the Side, See the 8th Fleet Grayson contingent's actions at Basilisk - They had secretly pre-planned an overwhelming Alpha Strike against the outnumbered attacking PRN fleet and launched without White Haven's order. The Launch code was definitely showing the Grayson thinking about their Loss of Honor.

True, but neither of those eventualities required an accommodation with the enemy.
Top
Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by Theemile   » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:07 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4605
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

tlb wrote:
Theemile wrote:If memory serves, Honor's (and her Grayson and Manty staff) thoughts on Grayson's reaction to knowing about her survival, was that Grayson would pull all available units and mount an expedition to secure Honor, at the expense of their current Alliance Tasking.

On the Side, See the 8th Fleet Grayson contingent's actions at Basilisk - They had secretly pre-planned an overwhelming Alpha Strike against the outnumbered attacking PRN fleet and launched without White Haven's order. The Launch code was definitely showing the Grayson thinking about their Loss of Honor.

True, but neither of those eventualities required an accommodation with the enemy.


The code phrase was "Honor Harrington... And No Quarter." Which does suggest the Grayson Military's thoughts on accommodating said enemies.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:24 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14386
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Ah, but then the Graysons thought Honor was dead, thus it was too late for accommodations at that point even if they were amenable. But I wonder how differently things would have went if Ransom hadn't lived up to her reputation of "Her Royal Heinous."

When Michelle Henke was captured, Eloise surely didn't miss the bargaining opportunity. Even if it wasn't forced, it went a long way.

Ransom had bargaining power when she had Honor. But she didn't care at all. Removing that piece off the board and boosting morale was worth more to her. But I wonder how much negotiating she could have milked out of that particular captured asset.

.
Last edited by cthia on Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:42 am, edited 3 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:40 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3052
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

Theemile wrote:The code phrase was "Honor Harrington... And No Quarter." Which does suggest the Grayson Military's thoughts on accommodating said enemies.


As in "return her alive or else." There doesn't seem to have been room for negotiation.
Top
Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:04 pm

Brigade XO
Admiral

Posts: 2889
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

cthia wrote:
Didn't know King Richard was captured. Thanks for that bit of trivia.



If not from various history material, do you remember either the Errol Flynn "Robin Hood" or the Kevin Costner "Robin Hood Prince of Thieves" ?

They didn't create all the backstory out to of some writhers head. Took massive amounts of liberties with history and chopped up lots of legends and stories about Richard and the problems in England at the time to come up with what we see in the movies. Sigh

More or less this was a continuation of the earlier history of Harold (of England) and William ( the Conqueror) which was part of an earlier power struggle in Europe over who (which noble/royal) owned what and the intrigue, plotting and outright warfare to settle said claims

Richard went on the Third Crusade but ran afoul of other interests (France, Italy, Sicily and many many others) and was taken captive in the 1190s. At that point a ransom was demanded. England had already been drained of a lot of wealth by Richard essentially mortgaging England to fund arms and participation in the Crusade and earlier ventures by Richard.

Either way, in the movies and various stories Richard's brother John (of course he's a self interested sleeze-ball but that wasn't unknown in younger siblings of royalty) but this supposed to be serving as Richard's caretaker in England but is scheming to take the crown.
Any actual connection by Richard with the Robin Hood of legend is iffy.

On the other hand, most of the ransom was organized and Richard returned to England. European and Middle Eastern politics at its dubious and quite intricate complications and exchanges of promises and oaths of allegiance of one sort or another. Richard ends up dying later in France trying to nail down yet more of what he thinks he is entitled to own through a massive web of historic marriages, treaties, conquests, agreements under duress and general intrigue. :)
Top
Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by Theemile   » Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:50 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4605
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:The code phrase was "Honor Harrington... And No Quarter." Which does suggest the Grayson Military's thoughts on accommodating said enemies.


As in "return her alive or else." There doesn't seem to have been room for negotiation.


"No Quarter" means to take no prisoners - any who are captured or wounded are to be killed outright, usually ordered in reciprocity for a previous atrocity.

At the time those words were spoken, the GSN thought she was dead, and would only be satisfied in the "...Damnation of the Peeps." The "...no quarter" launch phrase was an indication of how much her loss had affected them and their state of mind, since just a mention of said action in battle bordered on a violation of the Denebian Accord. (to White Haven's relief, no follow up targeting was done against the peep survivors of the GSN Alpha strike, though given the fact the the GSN had launched on the Peeps without waiting for his command (and the command phrase to launch) made him fear that they would.)

The GSN would not have negotiated for her - they would have burned the People's Republic down planet by planet until they found her, had they known she had survived.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:03 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 7511
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Theemile wrote:The code phrase was "Honor Harrington... And No Quarter." Which does suggest the Grayson Military's thoughts on accommodating said enemies.

Actually, to White Haven's great relief, that wasn't the message.

Echoes of Honor wrote:"Admiral Yanakov to all Grayson units," it said, and White Haven could almost hear the clangor of clashing swords in its depths. "The order is—Lady Harrington, and no mercy!"
[snip]

Alexander Hamish grabbed for his own com with frantic haste with Judah Yanakov's order still ringing in his ears. He was horrified by the implications, and his horror grew as the Graysons' fire control continued to sweep the tumbling wreckage and the handful of life pods which had escaped. But none of them fired, and as he slowly relaxed in his chair once more, his memory replayed the words once more. "No mercy," Yanakov had said, not "No quarter," and a long, quavering breath sighed out of him as he realized he was not about to see a vengeful atrocity by units under his command.
Top
Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:58 pm

tlb
Admiral

Posts: 2775
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

Brigade XO wrote:They didn't create all the backstory out to of some writhers head. Took massive amounts of liberties with history and chopped up lots of legends and stories about Richard and the problems in England at the time to come up with what we see in the movies. Sigh

More or less this was a continuation of the earlier history of Harold (of England) and William ( the Conqueror) which was part of an earlier power struggle in Europe over who (which noble/royal) owned what and the intrigue, plotting and outright warfare to settle said claims

The mother of Richard and John was just as famous as either of them: Eleanor of Aquitaine, Queen of England after being Queen of France. King Henry II wanted to give Aquitaine to John, but Richard objected that it was already his; so the King let Eleanor out of her imprisonment and forced Richard to give Aquitaine back to his mother. See The Lion in Winter for a dramatization of that family life.
Top

Return to Honorverse