Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?

This discussion makes me wonder how our government would have responded to a kidnapping of the President, his wife, or daughter. Bush or Obama, with similar demands. Let's say, in exchange for discontinuing the hunt for Bin Laden and burying the hatchet up to that point.

Until al-Qaeda screws up again. Which, of course, would be the one obvious demand made by Manticore. A treaty until the Alignment screws up by the numbers.


P.S. Josie and the Pussycats was also a very popular television show.

cthia wrote:This discussion makes me wonder how our government would have responded to a kidnapping of the President, his wife, or daughter. Bush or Obama, with similar demands. Let's say, in exchange for discontinuing the hunt for Bin Laden and burying the hatchet up to that point.

Until al-Qaeda screws up again. Which, of course, would be the one obvious demand made by Manticore. A treaty until the Alignment screws up by the numbers.

P.S. Josie and the Pussycats was also a very popular television show.

Isn't that true of every treaty or agreement, that it is valid until it is broken? So I do not think that has to be an explicit demand by either side.

I simply do not believe that it is functionally possible to force one side into "burying the hatchet" by kidnapping their leader.

Some humans can be trusted, some can not be. Some are just crazy. And then you are being presented with the Alignment- who are True Believers in The Plan by Detweiler and are acting with a veritable fanatic perspective on both the justness of their cause and the demonstrated willingness to kill vast numbers of people to achieve their ends.

So, who wants to trust the people who not only killed millions of people on the planet they used as an undercover base of operations for cover of pulling out several thousands of "key" people. That includes lots of nuclear weapons planted on the ground to incinerate physical evidence they were there. You know, the ones who set up another entire system as a misdirection and tried to get a 3rd party to kill just about everybody in said system just to repeat the same tactics of vanishing evidence. The ones who routinely plant nuclear weapons in orbital stations and habitats that kill, what was it- 10,000,000 just at Beowulf?

The individuals who used genetic slavery as a cover and laboratory experiments to tinker with humanity at the same time they were boasting to themselves of how they were going to "uplift" humanity. Uplift it into genetic cast system with themselves at the top and in full control of pumping out artificially adapted -and fully disposable-slaves. The ones who consider the non-Alignment, non-Star Line rest of humanity as "normals" and less than cattle to be used and disposed of at their need----or whim.

Oh THOSE paragons of enlightenment who can certainly be trusted to bathe a planet in blood to cover their tracks or in a fit of anger. Did they screw up tweeting the genetics of some child, that they designed to work with really high-end physics theory but it turns out that -again- the subject has massive psychological and other problems because of the experiment? Well, let's cull her and try again.

Perhaps the best solution is apply a Treecat approach to the Alignment......there are dead enemies and those who have not yet been dealt with.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:This discussion makes me wonder how our government would have responded to a kidnapping of the President, his wife, or daughter. Bush or Obama, with similar demands. Let's say, in exchange for discontinuing the hunt for Bin Laden and burying the hatchet up to that point.

Until al-Qaeda screws up again. Which, of course, would be the one obvious demand made by Manticore. A treaty until the Alignment screws up by the numbers.

P.S. Josie and the Pussycats was also a very popular television show.

Isn't that true of every treaty or agreement, that it is valid until it is broken? So I do not think that has to be an explicit demand by either side.

I simply do not believe that it is functionally possible to force one side into "burying the hatchet" by kidnapping their leader.

Which is why I didn't include it in the list of demands. It is implied.

You are correct that a treaty cannot be forced that way—if the government will simply throw the hostage under the bus.

It reminds me of the related scenes in many movies. The criminal comes out with a gun in a hostage's back. "If you don't—"

'Blam'

The party shoots his own person leaving him with a shocked look on his face. Well that was cold-hearted.

Brigade XO wrote:Some humans can be trusted, some can not be. Some are just crazy. And then you are being presented with the Alignment- who are True Believers in The Plan by Detweiler and are acting with a veritable fanatic perspective on both the justness of their cause and the demonstrated willingness to kill vast numbers of people to achieve their ends.

So, who wants to trust the people who not only killed millions of people on the planet they used as an undercover base of operations for cover of pulling out several thousands of "key" people. That includes lots of nuclear weapons planted on the ground to incinerate physical evidence they were there. You know, the ones who set up another entire system as a misdirection and tried to get a 3rd party to kill just about everybody in said system just to repeat the same tactics of vanishing evidence. The ones who routinely plant nuclear weapons in orbital stations and habitats that kill, what was it- 10,000,000 just at Beowulf?

The individuals who used genetic slavery as a cover and laboratory experiments to tinker with humanity at the same time they were boasting to themselves of how they were going to "uplift" humanity. Uplift it into genetic cast system with themselves at the top and in full control of pumping out artificially adapted -and fully disposable-slaves. The ones who consider the non-Alignment, non-Star Line rest of humanity as "normals" and less than cattle to be used and disposed of at their need----or whim.

Oh THOSE paragons of enlightenment who can certainly be trusted to bathe a planet in blood to cover their tracks or in a fit of anger. Did they screw up tweeting the genetics of some child, that they designed to work with really high-end physics theory but it turns out that -again- the subject has massive psychological and other problems because of the experiment? Well, let's cull her and try again.

Perhaps the best solution is apply a Treecat approach to the Alignment......there are dead enemies and those who have not yet been dealt with.

I think it is a given that the Alignment cannot be trusted. Certainly in the long run. But we need to focus. Can they be trusted in the short run? Can we bring the Queen home safely? We know they're going to screw up down the road. We'll get them then.

cthia wrote:Here's the thing. You want to keep your Queen in play on the board. If you lose her, you can "promote" someone else to a Queen later. But your strategic and tactical position changed immediately after the loss and later it may be too late. It very well might turn out to be an untenable position at the moment of her loss. And you cannot be sure the new Queen's power in this particular position at this particular juncture helps. On the chessboard, sometimes, a bishop, knight or rook is best.

IOW, Beth's successor may be all wrong in the middle of a war. Especially against this enemy. Any change of ruler and associated government may be all wrong. The Peeps thought so too. That is why King Roger was assassinated. Against the Alignment, Beth's 'Soul of Steel' will be tested. Any other mettle in the form of any other Queen and her government might be bent or broken. Manticore got lucky when it was forced to "promote" QEIII. You think they should roll the dice twice?

On the chessboard I've seen brilliant Queen sacrifices for overwhelming position. My niece likes to use it (the little snot). She'll dangle her out seemingly unprotected like bait. You take. She pounces. It is usually a quite brutal and decisive strike.

You do have a point in all of the above. But the question is just how much all of that weighs compared to the demands being made for her safe return. Are they worth it?

Especially if you don't think the other side is negotiating in good faith. They're criminals and murderers, after all.

All of you aim at a decisive counterstrike. Which is impossible if you don't know where to find the foe. You also seem to care more about your position, which is logical. So a Queen sacrifice seems reasonable, even if it is out of necessity instead of by design. It is simply that it will hurt as much as it oftentimes does on the board. It could turn out to be a losing proposition.

Not exactly. The aim is a successful and decisive rescue. The queen can't simply vanish and reappear at an undisclosed location. There will be some trace of how she got taken where she went and how she was taken there. Therefore, a rescue operation is very much a possibility and has a high chance of getting there. In fact, the very last thing the kidnappers would want is to take Beth to Darius.

Now, once the rescue operation narrows down the search field, when to execute the rescue operation is another decision. Attempting to is likely going to cause the kidnappers to kill her, so at this point there needs to be a pause for negotiations. The GA is likely going to control the entire space around the planet in question, whichever that is, so they will also control all lines of communication. The kidnappers will not get news from the outside Galaxy and will need to make decisions based on only what they had known prior to the GF showing up. That means the negotiation can be allowed to last for long, as that has no impact on any other operations currently being run.

Actually, now that I think of it, there is one planet that the GF could not successfully blockade for long, prevent any news from going in or out, and also not successfully track down the kidnappers to a very small area: Earth.

There is no way the Alignment will know if the GA continues to search for them, so that demand has a foregone conclusion. But I don't think Beth should be sacrificed over these demands. Especially if you do not know where to find the lair. If you do, then do what you must. I'm not onboard with it, but I understand the decision.

You very likely know where to find the kidnappers' lair.

cthia wrote:I think it is a given that the Alignment cannot be trusted. Certainly in the long run. But we need to focus. Can they be trusted in the short run? Can we bring the Queen home safely? We know they're going to screw up down the road. We'll get them then.

To do what? Talk about peace?

Just talk to the hostage. Once you come to an agreement, send her home with it. Done. And do it quickly, before the RMMC mounts a successful hostage rescue operation.

This still sounds like a Underpants Gnomes plan:

1. Kidnap Queen
2. ?
3. Profit

See Wikipedia or Forbes

Frankly, I think the Manticoran government would quickly accept the offer for mostly any member of the royal family. Even Honor. Beth would also accept the offer it was Monroe or Nimitz or Samantha who was held hostage. IMO.

cthia wrote:Frankly, I think the Manticoran government would quickly accept the offer for mostly any member of the royal family. Even Honor. Beth would also accept the offer it was Monroe or Nimitz or Samantha who was held hostage. IMO.

Again, what offer? Can you give a brief outline of what the demands would be? Try to be specific. Please include how the Alignment would authenticate itself too.

From what you've posted, yes, I'd say they'd agree. But I don't think it's believable anyone would go to the trouble of kidnapping anyone, much less the Queen, for those demands. No one with that level of resources would give up the hostage for so little demands and almost none of which can be relied upon.

I wasn't kidding when I said it looks like the Underpants Gnomes' plan. It does sound like someone saw an opportunity they hadn't expected, succeeded where all odds said they wouldn't, then didn't know what to do with the hostage, so came up with quarter-assed demands on the fly.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Frankly, I think the Manticoran government would quickly accept the offer for mostly any member of the royal family. Even Honor. Beth would also accept the offer it was Monroe or Nimitz or Samantha who was held hostage. IMO.

Again, what offer? Can you give a brief outline of what the demands would be? Try to be specific. Please include how the Alignment would authenticate itself too.

From what you've posted, yes, I'd say they'd agree. But I don't think it's believable anyone would go to the trouble of kidnapping anyone, much less the Queen, for those demands. No one with that level of resources would give up the hostage for so little demands and almost none of which can be relied upon.

I wasn't kidding when I said it looks like the Underpants Gnomes' plan. It does sound like someone saw an opportunity they hadn't expected, succeeded where all odds said they wouldn't, then didn't know what to do with the hostage, so came up with quarter-assed demands on the fly.

The Alignment isn't kidding either.

The demands stand. In front of God, Tester, and the entire Galaxy. The MA is demanding peace. They used whatever means they thought necessary to get to the negotiating table. And there is no need for bloodshed, unless your actions bid it necessary. Accept the demands and we will return your Queen.

Call the demands whatever you like. What is implied is that the Galaxy knows Manticore agreed to the demands. And the Queen was returned no worse for wear.

Renege on your agreement with this enemy, and THEY WILL KEW YOUR PLANET INTO COMPLIANCE.

Hard heads make soft asses.

When the ceasefire was agreed to with Saint-Just, the Galaxy was watching. The forthright Manticore's hands were tied until the Peeps sortied first. The MA may or may not be biding their time. If the demands are accepted to return your captured Queen, you damn well better honor it. Or the Lennys ride. I think the government better get you away from the negotiating table.

BTW, aren't all hostage demands made under duress? Stop crying.

Aren't all wars fought under duress? Stop crying.

If you don't think this enemy will KEW your planet, you're living in a fantasy world. Galactic opinion is preventing them from doing it now. You renege on your agreement in front of the Galaxy, then your blood is on your hands.

You still don't know where their lair is. Until you find it, you need as much time as they do. Unlike your position when you were dealing with Saint-Just.

You may be dealing with the devil. But then, you already knew that. GET BETH BACK!

The MA outmaneuvered you. Stop crying.