Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?

I'm going to break in on this thread for a bit and as self disclosure state that I haven't read the most recent book. Doing so is on my bucket list, but I'm not there yet.

Just a couple comments and questions. The MA is capable of doing dumb stuff. Witness the Yawata Strike and the attack on Beowulf. That put the GA and the Solarian League hot on their trail, as well as drawing Haven and Manticore together. Now they face enemies with an icy determination to seek them out. I can't think of anything more likely to swing galactic opinion toward Manticore than an attempt to kidnap the queen and certainly the GA's resolve would be strengthened.

I'm on the side of those who wouldn't negotiate. Establish communication in hopes of establishing queen's whereabouts for a rescue attempt, yes. But negotiate, no. There would be zero chance of rescuing her that way. But it is even possible that Ariel could serve as a locater. But even that is only a slim hope. The instant she no longer serves a useful purpose for her kidnappers, she's dead.

Has there been any more discussion about breaking the cloak on the sharks and LDs? If they have been used at all, we would have more data for our geniuses at Bolthole to work with...

Don

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n7axw wrote:I'm going to break in on this thread for a bit and as self disclosure state that I haven't read the most recent book. Doing so is on my bucket list, but I'm not there yet.

Just a couple comments and questions. The MA is capable of doing dumb stuff. Witness the Yawata Strike and the attack on Beowulf. That put the GA and the Solarian League hot on their trail, as well as drawing Haven and Manticore together. Now they face enemies with an icy determination to seek them out. I can't think of anything more likely to swing galactic opinion toward Manticore than an attempt to kidnap the queen and certainly the GA's resolve would be strengthened.

I'm on the side of those who wouldn't negotiate. Establish communication in hopes of establishing queen's whereabouts for a rescue attempt, yes. But negotiate, no. There would be zero chance of rescuing her that way. But it is even possible that Ariel could serve as a locater. But even that is only a slim hope. The instant she no longer serves a useful purpose for her kidnappers, she's dead.

Has there been any more discussion about breaking the cloak on the sharks and LDs? If they have been used at all, we would have more data for our geniuses at Bolthole to work with...

Don

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There is a lot of stuff in this thread, including a discussion of the crytographic key size. There are discussions in this thread and others about how the spider-drive weapons will be used and what might follow.

But we do not know specifically what will happen, because then we would not need the next book.

I rechecked the thread and the discussion about the Queen was still going on at about page 17, but by then it had devolved into a discussion of the LD's raining KEW's on various planets in a Malign terror campaign.

n7axw wrote:I'm going to break in on this thread for a bit and as self disclosure state that I haven't read the most recent book. Doing so is on my bucket list, but I'm not there yet.

Just a couple comments and questions. The MA is capable of doing dumb stuff. Witness the Yawata Strike and the attack on Beowulf. That put the GA and the Solarian League hot on their trail, as well as drawing Haven and Manticore together. Now they face enemies with an icy determination to seek them out. I can't think of anything more likely to swing galactic opinion toward Manticore than an attempt to kidnap the queen and certainly the GA's resolve would be strengthened.

I'm on the side of those who wouldn't negotiate. Establish communication in hopes of establishing queen's whereabouts for a rescue attempt, yes. But negotiate, no. There would be zero chance of rescuing her that way. But it is even possible that Ariel could serve as a locater. But even that is only a slim hope. The instant she no longer serves a useful purpose for her kidnappers, she's dead.

Has there been any more discussion about breaking the cloak on the sharks and LDs? If they have been used at all, we would have more data for our geniuses at Bolthole to work with...

Don

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I agree with opening lines of communication for the sake of buying time for a rescue effort, as I indicated upstream. If indeed a rescue effort is the best that can be managed. And the sanest.

But I do not agree with a rescue effort at all. As I said, these are not the unprofessional idiots that Saburo X dealt with in the previous book. These are Alignment agents. They will not be startled and become frozen when the shooting starts, and the Queen will undoubtedly die when their nanite programming kicks in.

Besides, why embark on an ill-advisable rescue attempt against what you already know is a ruthless enemy when you don't have to. The MA is offering you your Queen back for certain concessions. Either you think that Beth is worth it or you don't. At the risk of being accused of moving the goalposts (???) again. Let me make sure I understand this correctly.

As I indicated upstream, I think Grayson would have made huge concessions to Haven to get Honor back had Haven offered the same terms. Anyone disagree with that? Does anyone truly think that Grayson would have turned their back on Honor and threw her under the bus in the same manner?

Governments have been negotiating with each other to retrieve VIPs for a very long time. I know this is sci-fi, but name just one person in the HV who is even more important than either Beth or Honor? Just one.

I really don't get it. The notion isn't science fiction.


P.S. I miss your input here, Don.

I'm talking about the Mesan Alignment. I doubt this enemy would even want to hide the fact that she is under duress. On the contrary, that is their point. Their prevailing point is that her duress will soon turn to death.

cthia wrote:

n7axw wrote:I'm going to break in on this thread for a bit and as self disclosure state that I haven't read the most recent book. Doing so is on my bucket list, but I'm not there yet.

Just a couple comments and questions. The MA is capable of doing dumb stuff. Witness the Yawata Strike and the attack on Beowulf. That put the GA and the Solarian League hot on their trail, as well as drawing Haven and Manticore together. Now they face enemies with an icy determination to seek them out. I can't think of anything more likely to swing galactic opinion toward Manticore than an attempt to kidnap the queen and certainly the GA's resolve would be strengthened.

I'm on the side of those who wouldn't negotiate. Establish communication in hopes of establishing queen's whereabouts for a rescue attempt, yes. But negotiate, no. There would be zero chance of rescuing her that way. But it is even possible that Ariel could serve as a locater. But even that is only a slim hope. The instant she no longer serves a useful purpose for her kidnappers, she's dead.

Has there been any more discussion about breaking the cloak on the sharks and LDs? If they have been used at all, we would have more data for our geniuses at Bolthole to work with...

Don

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I agree with opening lines of communication for the sake of buying time for a rescue effort, as I indicated upstream. If indeed a rescue effort is the best that can be managed. And the sanest.

But I do not agree with a rescue effort at all. As I said, these are not the unprofessional idiots that Saburo X dealt with in the previous book. These are Alignment agents. They will not be startled and become frozen when the shooting starts, and the Queen will undoubtedly die when their nanite programming kicks in.

Besides, why embark on an ill-advisable rescue attempt against what you already know is a ruthless enemy when you don't have to. The MA is offering you your Queen back for certain concessions. Either you think that Beth is worth it or you don't. At the risk of being accused of moving the goalposts (???) again. Let me make sure I understand this correctly.

As I indicated upstream, I think Grayson would have made huge concessions to Haven to get Honor back had Haven offered the same terms. Anyone disagree with that? Does anyone truly think that Grayson would have turned their back on Honor and threw her under the bus in the same manner?

Governments have been negotiating with each other to retrieve VIPs for a very long time. I know this is sci-fi, but name just one person in the HV who is even more important than either Beth or Honor? Just one.

I really don't get it. The notion isn't science fiction.


P.S. I miss your input here, Don.

I keep thinking about the story in Beginnings where Alison is kidnapped and has to be rescued and admit that does a lot to shape my attitude. I admit also that the two situations are not congruent. But for me there is enough commonality to bring the story to mind.

Yes, the Queen -- or Empress -- is important. But not more so than the Empire. There have been times that the cost hass been too high and the ruler has been sacrificed in the interest of the state. In Manticore's case the their would be placed on the throne and things would keep marching on...just like they did when Roger was assassinated and Elizabeth came to the throne.

In one case when Richard the Lionhearted was captured his brother John paid his captors to keep him. How about that for brotherly love.

Don

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cthia wrote:

n7axw wrote:I'm going to break in on this thread for a bit and as self disclosure state that I haven't read the most recent book. Doing so is on my bucket list, but I'm not there yet.

Just a couple comments and questions. The MA is capable of doing dumb stuff. Witness the Yawata Strike and the attack on Beowulf. That put the GA and the Solarian League hot on their trail, as well as drawing Haven and Manticore together. Now they face enemies with an icy determination to seek them out. I can't think of anything more likely to swing galactic opinion toward Manticore than an attempt to kidnap the queen and certainly the GA's resolve would be strengthened.

I'm on the side of those who wouldn't negotiate. Establish communication in hopes of establishing queen's whereabouts for a rescue attempt, yes. But negotiate, no. There would be zero chance of rescuing her that way. But it is even possible that Ariel could serve as a locater. But even that is only a slim hope. The instant she no longer serves a useful purpose for her kidnappers, she's dead.

Has there been any more discussion about breaking the cloak on the sharks and LDs? If they have been used at all, we would have more data for our geniuses at Bolthole to work with...

Don

-

I agree with opening lines of communication for the sake of buying time for a rescue effort, as I indicated upstream. If indeed a rescue effort is the best that can be managed. And the sanest.

But I do not agree with a rescue effort at all. As I said, these are not the unprofessional idiots that Saburo X dealt with in the previous book. These are Alignment agents. They will not be startled and become frozen when the shooting starts, and the Queen will undoubtedly die when their nanite programming kicks in.

Besides, why embark on an ill-advisable rescue attempt against what you already know is a ruthless enemy when you don't have to. The MA is offering you your Queen back for certain concessions. Either you think that Beth is worth it or you don't. At the risk of being accused of moving the goalposts (???) again. Let me make sure I understand this correctly.

As I indicated upstream, I think Grayson would have made huge concessions to Haven to get Honor back had Haven offered the same terms. Anyone disagree with that? Does anyone truly think that Grayson would have turned their back on Honor and threw her under the bus in the same manner?

Governments have been negotiating with each other to retrieve VIPs for a very long time. I know this is sci-fi, but name just one person in the HV who is even more important than either Beth or Honor? Just one.

I really don't get it. The notion isn't science fiction.


P.S. I miss your input here, Don.

n7axw wrote:I keep thinking about the story in Beginnings where Alison is kidnapped and has to be rescued and admit that does a lot to shape my attitude. I admit also that the two situations are not congruent. But for me there is enough commonality to bring the story to mind.

Yes, the Queen -- or Empress -- is important. But not more so than the Empire. There have been times that the cost hass been too high and the ruler has been sacrificed in the interest of the state. In Manticore's case the their would be placed on the throne and things would keep marching on...just like they did when Roger was assassinated and Elizabeth came to the throne.

In one case when Richard the Lionhearted was captured his brother John paid his captors to keep him. How about that for brotherly love.

Don

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Alison was kidnapped but it was her very own capable husband who managed the rescue. And he wasn't up against what is essentially a bunch of well trained fanatics who have nanite programming in case of shooting to prevent indecision. But if a simple ransom demand was being asked for her safe return, would he have chosen that far more easier option instead?

Speaking of Alison, she would have had no say so in the matter. But if it had been Alison's daughter - and a ransom was being demanded for her safe return - I think Alison would have demanded the same response as any sane parent (mother at least, as in movies when dealing with the macho police). "Just pay the damn ransom! The kidnappers said no police and no tricks. This is my baby they've got!"

You are correct, no one person is more important than state. And someone will undoubtedly succeed her and carry on. But there is a caveat to that. It has something to do with why the Peeps chose to assassinate King Roger. I get the impression that Roger was a thorn in Haven's side. The logic was that if you can remove a capable ruler and replace them with someone who is far weaker - politically and militarily - your chances of winning the war will increase dramatically. It is not written in stone that any given ruler will have what it takes when the shooting starts. Rulers are chosen by order of succession, not by competence.

Manticore got lucky with QEIII. The MBS is truly charmed. I am sure Manty luck surprised the hell out of Haven. At any rate, is it wise to risk it again, in the middle of a war? You might get a government that is even weaker all around than the High Ridge government. Which was a real doomsday machine. The High Ridge government may have been equal in value to anything that ever came out of Bolthole. LOL

cthia wrote:Alison was kidnapped but it was her very own capable husband who managed the rescue. And he wasn't up against what is essentially a bunch of well trained fanatics who have nanite programming in case of shooting to prevent indecision.

I checked to make sure that Alison was kidnapped by agents of Manpower Inc, rather than the Mesan Alignment, to make sure that you were correct that they would not have had nanite treatment.

1) Why do you think that they were less well trained or less fanatical than those that might have the nanite treatment; after all most with the treatment might not even know that it is there?
2) Why do you think that the treatment prevents indecision (except by the death of the host); since it does not change any mental process prior to activation? Basically the nanite just sits in the background waiting to force the host to execute the imbedded instructions.

PS: I am sure you know he was not her husband at the time and would have no real power over whether or not her family was to pay a ransom (which he probably could not afford).

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Alison was kidnapped but it was her very own capable husband who managed the rescue. And he wasn't up against what is essentially a bunch of well trained fanatics who have nanite programming in case of shooting to prevent indecision.

I checked to make sure that Alison was kidnapped by agents of Manpower Inc, rather than the Mesan Alignment, to make sure that you were correct that they would not have had nanite treatment.

1) Why do you think that they were less well trained or less fanatical than those that might have the nanite treatment; after all most with the treatment might not even know that it is there?
2) Why do you think that the treatment prevents indecision (except by the death of the host); since it does not change any mental process prior to activation? Basically the nanite just sits in the background waiting to force the host to execute the imbedded instructions.

PS: I am sure you know he was not her husband at the time and would have no real power over whether or not her family was to pay a ransom (which he probably could not afford).

Good points. I may have missed a memo that Manpower agents were generally fitted with suicide protocols and nanite programming.

At any rate, I will always consider anyone associated with Manpower to be less competent than MA agents by the very fact that the MA thought of the entire lot of them as a bunch of bumbling idiots. They were patsies. Besides, suicide protocols and nanite programming are both forms of technology. The MA used them sparingly, and still haven't - how did Henke put it - taken the gloves off.

But yes. I would tend to think MA agents will be a cut above Manpower agents. The MA recruited the best. Think Harahap. At any rate, the nanite programming would prevent indecision quite easily. The trigger would be when the shooting starts, Beth dies. There is no option of indecision when the programming kicks in. I can't think of anyone who actually fell under compulsion having the option of yielding to indecision. Actually, I am sure there was no indecision at all. Nobody has ever been undecided about wanting to live.

"Hmm, should I drive my aircar into this mountain?"

cthia wrote: I may have missed a memo that Manpower agents were generally fitted with suicide protocols and nanite programming.

I specifically did not not say that; I thought that I was agreeing with you that they would NOT have the nanite suicide protocol, because they were from Manpower Inc.

Yes, Harahap was more capable; but he was anything but fanatical, instead his motivations were always practical. Whereas anyone thinking that kidnapping a member of the family of a Planetary Director was a good idea has to be somewhat fanatical.

Remember that it was Elizabeth who tolerated the High Ridge government. She could have gone toe to toe with the Lords and said no. Roger certainly would have.

The House of Winton has produced a whole bunch of very capable rulers. Remember Elizabeth II?

Don

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