Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?

cthia wrote:It could be. The program can be preloaded onto a minicomp. Compulsion can get someone to make like Harkness and insert it into a terminal. And these are Alphas. I, personally, expect Alphas to have programming skills that are superior to even Anton's and Ruth's. Alphas have perfect memory.

That requires knowing what to program on that minicomp in the first place. It's a lot of knowledge about how to bypass regular checks that I doubt would be possible to extract with tactical time usefulness. We're talking about backdoors, which, if not intentional, would disappear over time as software would get updated. And of course, there's the issue one can't test that it works ahead of time, without an exact duplicate of the hardware and software. Last I checked, there aren't any Invictus or Harrington II available for sale, much less with the original software.

The point is that the macro that the Filareta Chief of Staff would have programmed he would have done so consciously, in the course of his regular job. It's not something that would ring of as traitorous. Therefore, having it ready for the occasion is believable.

Accepting a minicomp is within the realm of believability too. After all, the courier that took the Rat Poison gas did accept a briefcase he didn't remember why, and he rationalised somehow. We don't know how long that brainwashing took, but I can accept that it could have been improved in the intervening years so it only takes a nanite infection.

But then whoever this person is has to take the minicomp into a secure area like the flag bridge or main bridge, without arousing suspicion. I'd assume that all the top officers' devices are constantly being scanned for vulnerabilities and maintained by IT Sec in cooperation with CIC, so if this is an additional device, it'll raise flags; if it's the officer's own, the malware might be caught in a routine scan beforehand.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:It could be. The program can be preloaded onto a minicomp. Compulsion can get someone to make like Harkness and insert it into a terminal. And these are Alphas. I, personally, expect Alphas to have programming skills that are superior to even Anton's and Ruth's. Alphas have perfect memory.

That requires knowing what to program on that minicomp in the first place.

A very big difference with me in the forum is that I have never sweated over the small details, because they are something the author doesn't even have to waste pixie dust on. I have always aspired to the train of thought which says, "If you can imagine it, you can achieve it." As I can imagine is something Sonja preached in the jeune ecole.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It's knowledge about how to bypass regular checks that I doubt would be possible to extract with tactical time usefulness. We're talking about backdoors, which, if not intentional, would disappear over time as software would get updated. And of course, there's the issue one can't test that it works ahead of time, without an exact duplicate of the hardware and software. Last I checked, there aren't any Invictus or Harrington II available for sale, much less with the original software.

You seem to keep forgetting that these are Alphas. They work smart, not hard. Plus, they have access to crowbars (nanites) and fulcrums (nanites).

But you are thinking small. Harkness had to worry about the kinds of programs that were running on the computer so he could exploit one of them. None of that would have been necessary if he could have somehow gained administrative privileges. The MA can use compulsion to gain an administrative password, and even the layout of the land. I noticed that when you responded to my post you left out the question I posited about a hacker with perfect memory. That hacker can write a program to interact with the hardware and operating system on its native level. Once admin privileges are obtained, the sky is the limit. Finding out what OS is used on what hardware is child's play.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The point is that the macro that the Filareta Chief of Staff would have programmed he would have done so consciously, in the course of his regular job. It's not something that would ring of as traitorous. Therefore, having it ready for the occasion is believable.

Accepting a minicomp is within the realm of believability too. After all, the courier that took the Rat Poison gas did accept a briefcase he didn't remember why, and he rationalised somehow. We don't know how long that brainwashing took, but I can accept that it could have been improved in the intervening years so it only takes a nanite infection.

But then whoever this person is has to take the minicomp into a secure area like the flag bridge or main bridge, without arousing suspicion. I'd assume that all the top officers' devices are constantly being scanned for vulnerabilities and maintained by IT Sec in cooperation with CIC, so if this is an additional device, it'll raise flags; if it's the officer's own, the malware might be caught in a routine scan beforehand.

If the person infected is the head of ship security who has clearance to have a minicomp, problem solved. Think smart, not hard.

However, referencing your thread on augmentations, I don't think augmentations are caught by security programs, or surely the Andermani would have detected the danger in Honor's finger. An interface can be built-into a body part. At any rate, that problem is small potatoes.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But then whoever this person is has to take the minicomp into a secure area like the flag bridge or main bridge, without arousing suspicion. I'd assume that all the top officers' devices are constantly being scanned for vulnerabilities and maintained by IT Sec in cooperation with CIC, so if this is an additional device, it'll raise flags; if it's the officer's own, the malware might be caught in a routine scan beforehand.

And the nanites can't be programmed for something like deception--everything we have seen them do is strictly programmed, no decision trees or the like.

Loren Pechtel wrote:And the nanites can't be programmed for something like deception--everything we have seen them do is strictly programmed, no decision trees or the like.

Right and that's my point. I wasn't pointing out the difficulty as a problem for the hacking. I'd like to believe we have better information security 2000 years in the future than we do today. There's no reason for an administrative password to exist. There's also not a single person that is the admin user; instead, everyone in security is cross-checked by everyone else.

But that's neither here nor there. The point is what Loren is also making: that the boundaries the author has established for the technology today imply that it can't be more than simple rote movements that can be copied from person to person, or something the host would know to do in the first place.

We can and should expect the technology to improve in the years before such a thing could happen. But the MAlign will not get enough time to do make revolutionary changes.

So, the issues is that these are Alphas, not Q.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:And the nanites can't be programmed for something like deception--everything we have seen them do is strictly programmed, no decision trees or the like.

Right and that's my point. I wasn't pointing out the difficulty as a problem for the hacking. I'd like to believe we have better information security 2000 years in the future than we do today. There's no reason for an administrative password to exist. There's also not a single person that is the admin user; instead, everyone in security is cross-checked by everyone else.

That is impossible, impractical, and irresponsible. With varying levels of expertise, everyone simply cannot be allowed administrative privileges. And even if everyone does have the same level of expertise (hardly), then the lack of god privileges promises anarchy. It is a recipe for disaster. Besides, aboard Tepes, Harkness mentioned that he was looking for and eventually found a program with the wrong privileges set. He got in by getting administrative privileges in an indirect fashion. Without a system with administrative privileges, you will run into the common problem of having too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But that's neither here nor there. The point is what Loren is also making: that the boundaries the author has established for the technology today imply that it can't be more than simple rote movements that can be copied from person to person, or something the host would know to do in the first place.

We can and should expect the technology to improve in the years before such a thing could happen. But the MAlign will not get enough time to do make revolutionary changes.

So, the issues is that these are Alphas, not Q.

There is no need to bring Q into it. Simply the capabilities of an Alpha will suffice.

You are still experiencing a shortage of imagination, and you consistently get caught up in brute force methods.

Simple rote movements are the basics of the first Turtle Graphics. A few of these simple rote movements can conspire to make an elaborate big picture. IOW, one cannot program several or more things into a victim, but the MA can take the lid off of compulsion and have several or more people infected to carry out several different rote movements that make-up the big picture. And if a spy is also in the group, that is even better.

Also, why would the MA be concerned with deception? The subjects are never aware that they have nanites awaiting activation. And activation won't come until each subject is in the right position / department. Like the time the Klingons reprogrammed Geordi's visor to show them the frequency of Enterprise's shields. They had to wait until Geordi actually went down to Engineering. And the Treecats cannot detect the nanites until they activate. It should be too late by then. The pawns may be captured, but that "one ping" will be sent.

cthia wrote:That is impossible, impractical, and irresponsible. With varying levels of expertise, everyone simply cannot be allowed administrative privileges. And even if everyone does have the same level of expertise (hardly), then the lack of god privileges promises anarchy. It is a recipe for disaster. Besides, aboard Tepes, Harkness mentioned that he was looking for and eventually found a program with the wrong privileges set. He got in by getting administrative privileges in an indirect fashion. Without a system with administrative privileges, you will run into the common problem of having too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

Indeed that was a hack. But it took Harkness weeks with direct access to the ship, with tacit if unknowing approval. The stakes of penetrating an RMN ship with an active counter-hacking team aboard are much different.

I also think there are certain privileges that simply shouldn't be allowed on a ship underway. Unless you put the ship into dry-dock mode. I think it would be nice to hear from someone who has served aboard a modern (<30 years old) wet-navy vessel about how these things are done or at least meant to be done.

In any case, the problem with a transmission is that it needs a receiver. What kind of ship is the MAN going to send to shadow a GA formation? Don't answer spider, because it can't keep up.

I think penetrating the warship formation is both impractical for all the reasons stated and also pointless because the information is too late. It's probably far easier to penetrate and extract information from the Admiralty or ONI, in Landing.

Simple rote movements are the basics of the first Turtle Graphics. A few of these simple rote movements can conspire to make an elaborate big picture. IOW, one cannot program several or more things into a victim, but the MA can take the lid off of compulsion and have several or more people infected to carry out several different rote movements that make-up the big picture. And if a spy is also in the group, that is even better.

I don't think you can program someone to type their password unless you already know it beforehand. But I'll grant this is likely the first of many improvements we could expect in this technique.

In any case, two issues in the previous paragraph. First, you need to have an active, knowing spy to do some things in the hacking. That's not Audrey and that's not someone exposed to treecats. This level of infiltration is possible, but unlikely.

Second, the issue of many parts getting together to trigger the whole. The more parts you have, the more is difficult it is for the circumstances to happen, so they'll happen less and less frequently. To the point where it might not happen until it's too late to make use of said information.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't think you can program someone to type their password unless you already know it beforehand. But I'll grant this is likely the first of many improvements we could expect in this technique.

The nanites do not appear to have access to the brain of the host, just sensory ability and motor control.

I do think decision trees would be possible, but they'll be limited to what the programmer knows.

In any case, two issues in the previous paragraph. First, you need to have an active, knowing spy to do some things in the hacking. That's not Audrey and that's not someone exposed to treecats. This level of infiltration is possible, but unlikely.

It depends on the number of ships. So long as they have enough cats for the job I would expect everyone boarding a ship on an important mission to be checked. Even if not every ship is checked trying to slip an agent in is a very risky maneuver. Cats can't see latent nanites but they can see MAlign agents.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't think you can program someone to type their password unless you already know it beforehand. But I'll grant this is likely the first of many improvements we could expect in this technique.

The nanites do not appear to have access to the brain of the host, just sensory ability and motor control.

I do think decision trees would be possible, but they'll be limited to what the programmer knows.

You are overthinking it. To acquire someone's password should be child's play. Simply slip a thumb drive in his pocket and compel him to insert the drive before typing the password. The drive will capture the password. There are a plethora of other very simple methods limited only by the imagination.

Loren Pectel wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:In any case, two issues in the previous paragraph. First, you need to have an active, knowing spy to do some things in the hacking. That's not Audrey and that's not someone exposed to treecats. This level of infiltration is possible, but unlikely.

It depends on the number of ships. So long as they have enough cats for the job I would expect everyone boarding a ship on an important mission to be checked. Even if not every ship is checked trying to slip an agent in is a very risky maneuver. Cats can't see latent nanites but they can see MAlign agents.

If the agent has been in place for quite some time, the Treecats shouldn't be able to read him. No more than Honor could read the entangled emotions of O'Hanrahan. Also, the agent could be an engineer deep down in the bowels of the ship where Treecats don't get to tread.

Never underestimate stupidity or laziness.
I remember a Dilbert cartoon, where the pointy haired boss had noticed that all of his passwords displayed as ******, so to save time he made all of his ******.
In a work military situation I authorised security sweeps, finding passwords written on yellow post it notes on the side of monitors, pins of the operator's birthdays, passwords comprising the operator's children's names, 123456, qwerty, and lots similar. Even found one "password".

Daryl wrote:Never underestimate stupidity or laziness.
I remember a Dilbert cartoon, where the pointy haired boss had noticed that all of his passwords displayed as ******, so to save time he made all of his ******.
In a work military situation I authorised security sweeps, finding passwords written on yellow post it notes on the side of monitors, pins of the operator's birthdays, passwords comprising the operator's children's names, 123456, qwerty, and lots similar. Even found one "password".

LOL

That is hilarious Daryl. And to think I almost suggested that someone's password can be obtained by looking into their desk drawer. But then I thought, 'No way, nobody will ever believe that.'

It is simply the human element in human nature.