Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?

cthia wrote:They are simply asking to bury the hatchet. Peace. They are asking for peace. The Soul of Steel never thought she could forgive the Peeps for all of their wretched wickedness through the many long years. She would never have believed she could forgive the Peeps and let bygones be bygones. They assassinated her father! But lo and behold. An alliance built out of two gravely mortal enemies. Two vampires that feasted at each other's throats in the dark of space for an eternity.

But not now?

Really? The Alignment is not asking for much. And they are offering a lot. They are offering a grand prize to the Grand Alliance. Their collateral is huge, for the value of the Soul of Steel is priceless, a priceless commodity across all markets political, naval, and moral.

Didn't you read my post above?

If the MAlign wants to talk peace, them by all means talk peace. The GA is ready to listen and negotiate in good faith.

There will be need for some concessions, because the MAlign did attack first, skulking in the shadows, without regard to collateral damage to civilian populations. In fact, it struck AT civilian populations in Beowulf. So at a bare minimum a peace treaty would include a provision that the GA patrol all MAN production sites and their ships are not allowed for some time out of their own systems (like the terms imposed on the SL). They'd also need to free the entire slave population and allow for supervision of the genetic programmes.

There's no need for kidnapping to get to the negotiation table. The fact that someone would resort to that before opening lines of communication indicates they're not to be trusted. That they're criminals.

We do have one example of Honor engaged in a negotiation that involved duress: that was in Honor Among Enemies, where Andrew Warnecke was trying to get away from the planet Sidemore in the Marsh System. Honor had him trapped on the surface; but he was threatening to blow up cities, if not allowed to go free.

Honor put a lot of thought into how he could be prevented from blowing up additional cities as he left. I do not remember what Honor decided was the point that allowed her to consider the bargain broken and so take him prisoner.

tlb wrote:We do have one example of Honor engaged in a negotiation that involved duress: that was in Honor Among Enemies, where Andrew Warnecke was trying to get away from the planet Sidemore in the Marsh System. Honor had him trapped on the surface; but he was threatening to blow up cities, if not allowed to go free.

Honor put a lot of thought into how he could be prevented from blowing up additional cities as he left. I do not remember what Honor decided was the point that allowed her to consider the bargain broken and so take him prisoner.

She never gave her word to any bargain.

Honor Among Enemies wrote:She'd never once said she actually intended to let him go.
At every stage, she couched her own comments in conditionals. If Warnecke accepted her terms and if every point went as agreed, then he would be free to leave. But she'd already chosen the point at which she would make certain they were not carried out . . . and she'd never given her word that she wouldn't.

The only bargain she actually offered was the initial one that if he surrendered himself she'd turn him over to the Andies -- who'd promised he'd only be imprisoned, not executed. He refused that and tried to make his play for escaping with his repair ship, in exchange for his promise not to nuke the cities on the way out as a parting F U.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Here's the thing. Personally I am shocked. Shocked I tell you. Shocked at the cold-heartedness at the core of everyone's stance. We are talking about the Queen of Manticore. Queen Elizabeth III to be exact. One of the most decent people ever born in all of the Galaxy. We are talking about Honor Harrington's very good friend. We are talking about a woman who is an exalted member of the Winton Dynasty.

And she is alive. Captured. But. She. Is. Alive.

Her life is being offered to you as part of a negotiation between governments. All of you want to turn your back on her and ignore the opportunity to free her. You are implying that your soul is composed of stronger metal than the Soul of Steel.

Duty? All in the name of duty? Or revenge. That is what it boils down to. At the core of your decision is the human need of cold-hearted revenge. Well, spending Beth's life to get your revenge certainly serves the dish up something proper. Cold.

You are saying that you can turn down the demands and kill her, when you could have saved her. You are saying that you can forfeit her life and still be able to ever look into the eyes of every single spacer and citizen of Manticore again. Let alone the royal family. You are saying that you can live with the decision. You can sleep well at night.

You can't. The government can't. The Winton Dynasty can't. Eloise Pritchart can't. Grayson, can't. Way too many officers in the PRH, can't. The People can't. Not a single treecat would forfeit the life of the woman who fought for them, for the woman they named "Soul of Steel."

-snip-

But you would let her die to satisfy your need for revenge. So that is what is meant when the Galaxy echoes "For the Honor of the Queen."

I am reminded of a very bad unbalanced decision made by a man named Elvis Santino.

Although I detested the man, Oscar Saint-Just proved that diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means, when living to fight another day.

You flights of fantasy in defense of thinking someone could seriously try to negotiate for the return of a kidnapped Queen are in no way believable,

I don't quite understand you here. Are you saying that you don't believe that a nation would negotiate for the return of their Queen? The more important the hostage, the more likely there will be a negotiation. I'll await clarification of your intent on that point.

tln wrote:because the idea that someone could trust the Malign to negotiate in good faith is not believable.

Of course there is an unspoken question of whether the MA can be trusted. That question exists in every hostage negotiation. However, it is painfully obvious that the MA can be trusted to return the hostage, in this case.

How can I be so sure? Look at their demands! They would get just about everything that has been at the top of their list since their founding. And they would get peace. No more looking over their shoulders. And they would get to assume their rightful place in the Galaxy. It is a no-brainer they would deal in good faith. They know that it may be only a matter of time before they are found. As far as honoring the frontend of the bargan (releasing the Queen unharmed) they can be no more expected to renege on that part of the deal than Saint-Just would have been to renege on a temporary cease-fire. It is in their best interest. A detente would be a windfall for the MA at this point, especially now that their original plans are off the rails. Besides, do you really believe a nation would go through so much trouble to kidnap a Queen to force a negotiation if their demands aren't something they truly want?

Actually, the demands they made are the most common in the Galaxy. The release of certain people of their own being held as prisoners by the other government. In this case, the people belonging to the Alignment that are being held captive by the entire galaxy is the whole of the population of the Alignment. They are essentially hostages in absentia when they are forced to remain hidden.

tlb wrote:We are not in favor of killing her;

I know what you mean on this point, although, I am certain you have heard the phrase "Your actions would kill her as though your own hand pulled the trigger." At any rate, good luck trying to explain that to the entire galaxy at large.

tlb wrote:we simply do not believe that it is possible to have a successful negotiation and it will be the Malign that kills her, unless there is a successful rescue. This is not due to a cold-hearted wish for revenge (that will come when it is proved that the Queen died in their hands), instead it is a clear-headed understanding of the moral worth of the Malign.

See above. No kidnapper goes through this much trouble if their demands aren't worth it. The Queen will die in their hands for certain, but essentially it is your actions that are on the trigger.

tlb wrote:What Saint-Just proved was that the offered diplomacy was just a ploy to buy time until the war could be resumed on advantageous terms. The Manticoran government made the mistake of accepting and then made a second mistake by not getting a peace treaty when Haven's government changed to one that could be trusted.

That is my whole point. It is the MA's entire point. I am sure they think there is at least one Alpha on the planet. Consider Saint-Just's example and buy Beth more time. She has lots of decades still left on her clock. At the core of this negotiation, who gives a shit about the moral worth of the enemy? That has long since been determined. That is why they are an enemy.

Focus! All we need to know is 'can we get the Queen back alive'. Focus!

cthia wrote:The Alignment is not asking for Manticore's surrender. They aren't even asking for any of the demands the RMN sortied upon the Sollies. The are not asking for control of the MWJ. They are not intending to occupy the MBS. They did not destroy a single bit of infrastructure.

They are simply asking to bury the hatchet. Peace. They are asking for peace. The Soul of Steel never thought she could forgive the Peeps for all of their wretched wickedness through the many long years. She would never have believed she could forgive the Peeps and let bygones be bygones. They assassinated her father! But lo and behold. An alliance built out of two gravely mortal enemies. Two vampires that feasted at each other's throats in the dark of space for an eternity.

But not now?

Really? The Alignment is not asking for much. And they are offering a lot. They are offering a grand prize to the Grand Alliance. Their collateral is huge, for the value of the Soul of Steel is priceless, a priceless commodity across all markets political, naval, and moral.

tlb wrote:This is just the purest drivel; if you really believe it (which I doubt), then I wonder what the color of the sky is in your world.

Yes, I do believe that those demands would be too important to the Alignment to make or take lightly. Why would they screw the object of their successful kidnapping?

Why, tlb, the sky in my world is redshifted. It has been falling since our last presidency and -- and his handling of -- the pandemic. Doh! Strike that political statement please!


.

Accept, just like Elvis Santino should have accepted, that you have been outmaneuvered by this savvy enemy because you were not prepared for what they might do. But unlike Elvis Santino, don't throw away countless more lives.

How many citizens of Manticore AND the Galaxy is Queen Elizabeth worth?

cthia wrote:

tlb wrote:Your flights of fantasy in defense of thinking someone could seriously try to negotiate for the return of a kidnapped Queen are in no way believable,

I don't quite understand you here. Are you saying that you don't believe that a nation would negotiate for the return of their Queen? The more important the hostage, the more likely there will be a negotiation. I'll await clarification of your intent on that point.

tlb wrote:because the idea that someone could trust the Malign to negotiate in good faith is not believable.

Of course there is an unspoken question of whether the MA can be trusted. That question exists in every hostage negotiation. However, it is painfully obvious that the MA can be trusted to return the hostage, in this case.

How can I be so sure? Look at their demands! They would get just about everything that has been at the top of their list since their founding. And they would get peace. No more looking over their shoulders. And they would get to assume their rightful place in the Galaxy. It is a no-brainer they would deal in good faith. They know that it may be only a matter of time before they are found. As far as honoring the frontend of the bargan (releasing the Queen unharmed) they can be no more expected to renege on that part of the deal than Saint-Just would have been to renege on a temporary cease-fire. It is in their best interest. A detente would be a windfall for the MA at this point, especially now that their original plans are off the rails. Besides, do you really believe a nation would go through so much trouble to kidnap a Queen to force a negotiation if their demands aren't something they truly want?

Actually, the demands they made are the most common in the Galaxy. The release of certain people of their own being held as prisoners by the other government. In this case, the people belonging to the Alignment that are being held captive by the entire galaxy is the whole of the population of the Alignment. They are essentially hostages in absentia when they are forced to remain hidden.

tlb wrote:We are not in favor of killing her;

I know what you mean on this point, although, I am certain you have heard the phrase "Your actions would kill her as though your own hand pulled the trigger." At any rate, good luck trying to explain that to the entire galaxy at large.

tlb wrote:we simply do not believe that it is possible to have a successful negotiation and it will be the Malign that kills her, unless there is a successful rescue. This is not due to a cold-hearted wish for revenge (that will come when it is proved that the Queen died in their hands), instead it is a clear-headed understanding of the moral worth of the Malign.

See above. No kidnapper goes through this much trouble if their demands aren't worth it. The Queen will die in their hands for certain, but essentially it is your actions that are on the trigger.

tlb wrote:What Saint-Just proved was that the offered diplomacy was just a ploy to buy time until the war could be resumed on advantageous terms. The Manticoran government made the mistake of accepting and then made a second mistake by not getting a peace treaty when Haven's government changed to one that could be trusted.

That is my whole point. It is the MA's entire point. I am sure they think there is an least one Alpha on the planet. Consider Saint-Just's example and buy Beth more time. She has lots of decades still left on her clock. At the core of this negotiation, who gives a shit about the moral worth of the enemy? That has long since been determined. That is why they are an enemy.

If the kidnapper kills the hostage, because demands are not met, it is still the kidnapper that is legally and morally responsible for the death; not the person that refused those demands.

I thought I made it clear that while I might open communication, I will not acquiesce to demands; unlike you, I do not believe the Queen would be returned alive, no matter what I do do.

Do not try to argue that the Malign can be trusted, because it was in their best interests; if they had followed their best interests, then could have gotten most systems to modify the Beowulf code through the means of advertising instead of slavery and violence.

Do you believe that as the result of any negotiation, the Malign would both return the Queen and give up on the Detweiler Plan? I do not believe they would do either, so the only purpose in discussions is to buy time.

tlb wrote:If the kidnapper kills the hostage, because demands are not met, it is still the kidnapper that is legally and morally responsible for the death; not the person that refused those demands.

That is like saying that an enemy who places landmines in your path is responsible for your death if you step on one, but you still haven't lifted your foot, yet, when there is a negotiation team (bomb squad) nearby to "negotiate" your release. Whatever you may think you think, the truth is that your life is now in your hands. Or rather your foot.

tlb wrote:I thought I made it clear that while I might open communication, I will not acquiesce to demands; unlike you, I do not believe the Queen would be returned alive, no matter what I do do.

Right back to you allowing The Queen of Manticore to die without firing at least one diplomatic shot. Because you have a hunch.

Riddle me this. If you agree to the demands and the Queen is not returned, what is lost besides the Queen?

tlb wrote:If the kidnapper kills the hostage, because demands are not met, it is still the kidnapper that is legally and morally responsible for the death; not the person that refused those demands.

cthia wrote:That is like saying that an enemy who places landmines in your path is responsible for your death if you step on one, but you still haven't lifted your foot, yet, when there is a negotiation team (bomb squad) nearby to "negotiate" your release. Whatever you may think you think, the truth is that your life is now in your hands. Or rather your foot.

The situation is not completely the same, since the final action in the kidnapper case is by the kidnapper (who could have decided to keep the hostage alive awhile longer - there is nothing that forces the death of the hostage).

In the case of the landmine, it would be my error if I lift my foot knowing that it is on a landmine; but a bomb squad is not in negotiation with the enemy, so that part of the analogy fails. It is more similar to rescuing the Queen by force.

tlb wrote:I thought I made it clear that while I might open communication, I will not acquiesce to demands; unlike you, I do not believe the Queen would be returned alive, no matter what I do do.

cthia wrote:Right back to you allowing The Queen of Manticore to die without firing at least one diplomatic shot. Because you have a hunch.

Riddle me this. If you agree to the demands and the Queen is not returned, what is lost besides the Queen?

It depends on what I may have done in the mistaken belief that the Queen would be returned.

For example, imagine that they demand the plans for the miniature fusion reactor that powers our missiles. Then they refuse to return the Queen after verifying that the plans are accurate?

No one is saying "no negotiations."

What the rest of us are saying is that the negotiations are unlikely to come to an agreement. The list of demands from the MAlign is going to be unacceptable to the GA and the list of demands from the GA is going to be unacceptable for the MAlign. I doubt they will reach a compromise.

If they do, sure, everyone wins (because everyone is equally unhappy).

As for "what did you lose if you negotiated?" Time. The enemy can drag the negotiations and stall for time. Now, this may be in the GA's interest, if they can make use of that time to prepare for a sucker punch in the inevitable case that the negotiations fall apart. The problem is that the MAlign can do the same and is quite likely to do so. Can you trust them not to be preparing something and have no intention of ever coming to an agreement? Can you trust them not to be creating yet another contingency plan?

And I said this several times before: you don't kidnap someone to get something you could get without the kidnapping. Consequently, they want something that they couldn't otherwise get. Either it's the stall for time above, or they want the GA to acquiesce to a demand that is not otherwise acceptable. And you have to remember who would be the first person to say it's not acceptable: one certain Elizabeth Adrienne Samantha Annette Winton.

tlb wrote:If the kidnapper kills the hostage, because demands are not met, it is still the kidnapper that is legally and morally responsible for the death; not the person that refused those demands.

cthia wrote:That is like saying that an enemy who places landmines in your path is responsible for your death if you step on one, but you still haven't lifted your foot, yet, when there is a negotiation team (bomb squad) nearby to "negotiate" your release. Whatever you may think you think, the truth is that your life is now in your hands. Or rather your foot.

tlb wrote:The situation is not completely the same, since the final action in the kidnapper case is by the kidnapper (who could have decided to keep the hostage alive awhile longer - there is nothing that forces the death of the hostage).

Now you are simply arguing semantics. The point still stands. Beth stepped on a landmine, and her bomb squad can negotiate her release.

tlb wrote:In the case of the landmine, it would be my error if I lift my foot knowing that it is on a landmine; but a bomb squad is not in negotiation with the enemy, so that part of the analogy fails. It is more similar to rescuing the Queen by force.

On the contrary, as far as Beth is concerned, that damn landmine is the more immediate enemy!

tlb wrote:I thought I made it clear that while I might open communication, I will not acquiesce to demands; unlike you, I do not believe the Queen would be returned alive, no matter what I do do.

cthia wrote:Right back to you allowing The Queen of Manticore to die without firing at least one diplomatic shot. Because you have a hunch.

Riddle me this. If you agree to the demands and the Queen is not returned, what is lost besides the Queen?

tlb wrote:It depends on what I may have done in the mistaken belief that the Queen would be returned.

For example, imagine that they demand the plans for the miniature fusion reactor that powers our missiles. Then they refuse to return the Queen after verifying that the plans are accurate?

That is not in the ransom demands. The MA's request is somewhat reasonable.

I understand your reluctance to negotiate with this enemy. They might be stalling for time just like Saint-Just. But then, since their plans are off the rails, they may be actually planning to go straight. Probably not, but you can't afford not to give them that chance. When Eloise hypered into the MBS with her offer of an alliance, that could have been a ploy as well. But there comes a time when you have to know when to hold and know when to fold. Or simply know not to get busted so that you can live to play another hand.

If the MA turn out to be rats in the eyes of the entire galaxy, then what is the problem? You get to kick their ass after all.

The MA is like a cancer, you want to kill it, yes. But, like all aggressive cancers, if you fail to get it all it will come back with a vengeance.

Beth stepped on a landmine. And your final actions can free her. Worry about tomorrow when tomorrow comes.

I can imagine Beth's thoughts if she were a part of this negotiation ...

"Now hold on a minute you little warmonger. I do want to live you know. No shame in that. There is a time and there is a place to fight. This is neither.

Her eyes narrow. "You're not even on my side. You're in the Opposition party! You want me dead! Get him out of here!"

It does beg the question. Who would be authorized to make that decision?

Also, we have no idea what glue the Soul of Steel wields to keep her government functioning. There is no guarantee that Beth's successor will command the same power or allegiance. You don't want to find out the hard way just how valuable an asset you gave up.