Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?

cthia wrote:If the MA captured the Queen, I don't think they would be as blind to the value of their prize as Cordelia Ransom was to the value of Honor. What possible ransom demands could the MA spend their valuable prize on? They would not ask for money. One simply cannot put a monetary value on QEIII anyway. So what could they possibly demand -- which would be valuable enough to them to trade their captured prize -- that would also be something the Manticoran government can agree to?

Glad you asked. Speaking of Michelle Henke, the MA could take a page out of Eloise's book ...


Ransom demands:

1. The RMN can no longer participate in any operations against us. Nor can any of their allies. (Sidelined like Michelle Henke.)

2. (As a prelude to coming out into the open)... Accept the Mesan Alignment and Detweiler's original vision.

3. Peace.

.

I don't have a problem with negotiation between belligerent parties. They can do that all they want. In fact, they should do that. War is diplomacy by other means.

I have a problem when the negotiation is under duress, such as when a hostage is being held. But ok, do negotiate for the release. There may be some concessions.

I certainly have a problem with a disproportionate demand. Asking for a full surrender is not going to be accepted. "Stop fighting, disarm your ships and military forces, allow our occupation to come in and we promise we'll be nice to you " says the kidnapper. Why would anyone trust that? Taking your example of WWII Japan, the Emperor was left in place because otherwise the Japanese wouldn't stop fighting. If he had been taken hostage and taken to US-controlled territory, the Japanese wouldn't stop fighting until he was safely returned.

Of your ransom demands (lowercase r), the only one I find reasonable is the discussion about genetic uplift. That can be done. As RFC has said more than once, the general improvement of humanity is not bad and has been happening anyway. If the Detweilers wanted to talk and present their case to the Galaxy of why this is a good thing, Manticore would talk and would force Beowulf to pinch its collective nose while talking.

The problem is of course that's not all the Detweilers want. What they really want, a caste system with them on top and a culling of humanity, is not going to be accepted, even to return a head of state. And neither is surrender of military forces, which is what your first point would be, even if without disarmament, and allowing the rest of the galaxy to be ravaged.

As for the third one... why did they have to kidnap someone in the first place? If they wanted to talk peace, talk peace. It's not the GA is the intransigent party here that needs a blow to the head to force them to listen.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:If the MA captured the Queen, I don't think they would be as blind to the value of their prize as Cordelia Ransom was to the value of Honor. What possible ransom demands could the MA spend their valuable prize on? They would not ask for money. One simply cannot put a monetary value on QEIII anyway. So what could they possibly demand -- which would be valuable enough to them to trade their captured prize -- that would also be something the Manticoran government can agree to?

Glad you asked. Speaking of Michelle Henke, the MA could take a page out of Eloise's book ...


Ransom demands:

1. The RMN can no longer participate in any operations against us. Nor can any of their allies. (Sidelined like Michelle Henke.)

2. (As a prelude to coming out into the open)... Accept the Mesan Alignment and Detweiler's original vision.

3. Peace.

.

I don't have a problem with negotiation between belligerent parties. They can do that all they want. In fact, they should do that. War is diplomacy by other means.

I have a problem when the negotiation is under duress, such as when a hostage is being held. But ok, do negotiate for the release. There may be some concessions.

I certainly have a problem with a disproportionate demand. Asking for a full surrender is not going to be accepted. "Stop fighting, disarm your ships and military forces, allow our occupation to come in and we promise we'll be nice to you " says the kidnapper. Why would anyone trust that? Taking your example of WWII Japan, the Emperor was left in place because otherwise the Japanese wouldn't stop fighting. If he had been taken hostage and taken to US-controlled territory, the Japanese wouldn't stop fighting until he was safely returned.

Of your ransom demands (lowercase r), the only one I find reasonable is the discussion about genetic uplift. That can be done. As RFC has said more than once, the general improvement of humanity is not bad and has been happening anyway. If the Detweilers wanted to talk and present their case to the Galaxy of why this is a good thing, Manticore would talk and would force Beowulf to pinch its collective nose while talking.

The problem is of course that's not all the Detweilers want. What they really want, a caste system with them on top and a culling of humanity, is not going to be accepted, even to return a head of state. And neither is surrender of military forces, which is what your first point would be, even if without disarmament, and allowing the rest of the galaxy to be ravaged.

As for the third one... why did they have to kidnap someone in the first place? If they wanted to talk peace, talk peace. It's not the GA is the intransigent party here that needs a blow to the head to force them to listen.

Aren't all hostage negotiations made under duress?

The demands may be high, but the value of the captured asset is, also, high. Part of Jonathan's sentiment rings true. 'The government shouldn't have lost such a valuable asset'. There wasn't anything foolish the RMN or the Queen's Own did. It just is what it is. This enemy is too fit to be tied.

However, the demand is playing the violin hard on the entire planet's emotions. Consider that Prince Justin is devastated and the Queen's Cat, Monroe, is beyond comforting. Let's assume Monroe was not captured. To refuse the demands will kill the Queen, widow Justin, and force the government to witness Monroe's death following quickly on the heels of the Queen's.

Incidentally, tlb, Monroe will know whether the Queen lives. Or the exact moment of her death.

cthia wrote:Incidentally, tlb, Monroe will know whether the Queen lives. Or the exact moment of her death.

If she is a light year away, would the tree-cat know before the year was up? Don't they have to be within some maximum range for the ESP to work? And isn't that maximum range under a mile? When Nimitz re-met Samantha after captivity, they had to be face to face to realize his telepathy no longer worked.

If Monroe were in mental contact with the Queen, then they could locate and attempt to free her.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Incidentally, tlb, Monroe will know whether the Queen lives. Or the exact moment of her death.

If she is a light year away, would the tree-cat know before the year was up? Don't they have to be within some maximum range for the ESP to work? And isn't that maximum range under a mile? When Nimitz re-met Samantha after captivity, they had to be face to face to realize his telepathy no longer worked.

If Monroe were in mental contact with the Queen, then they could locate and attempt to free her.

I never assumed the MA managed to get her off the planet. Any kidnapping would have to be instantly known by all parties involved, and that would immediately close all access to space. Everything would be grounded. The Queen would be held at some undisclosed location on the planet.

I am unsure about the range of the connection. I thought it was much farther than a mile. More like several. Anyone know for certain? I don't recall it being specifically stated. The Yawata Strike is our best indication, and I recall it being somewhat vague.

I don't think the bond works like that. How would they locate her depending on the bond? Unless their bond is as unprecedented as Honor's and Nimitz'. Then they can share images. But if the Queen is blindfolded the entire time, or at critical times as is the norm with smart kidnappers, that is a no go.

It also brings up a question I asked long ago. Is the bond still active when either of the subjects is drugged? Or asleep?

cthia wrote:I am unsure about the range of the connection. I thought it was much farther than a mile. More like several. Anyone know for certain? I don't recall it being specifically stated. The Yawata Strike is our best indication, and I recall it being somewhat vague.

I don't think the bond works like that. How would they locate her depending on the bond? Unless their bond is as unprecedented as Honor's and Nimitz'. Then they can share images. But if the Queen is blindfolded the entire time, or at critical times as is the norm with smart kidnappers, that is a no go.

If we agree that the strength of the bond decreases with distance (and I think that we do), then you can eventually triangulate. Move Monroe along a road, if the signal remains nearly constant, then she is off in some way to the side. So move along a road that is perpendicular to the first and see in which direction the signal gets stronger to get a general direction toward her. Repeat this procedure from some widely separated points and find the area where these these pointers come closest to each other to get to the suspect neighborhood. Then repeat, getting closer and closer.

Of course if the bond has a directional component then Monroe does not have to be driven to monitor signal strength, but can just point in the direction toward his person. We know from the short story about rescuing children buried by an avalanche, "The Long Way Home", that Nimitz could home in on the direction to mind glows.

I do not think the Yawata Strike will necessarily tell you a distance for two individuals, since then the disappearance of an entire community caused a disturbance in the force. The information of that might have passed from clan to clan outward from the impact site and it might have involved individuals moving to get to a point where the message could be relayed.

The closest we get in the books is the short story where Honor's father (in the years before she was born) could locate her kidnapped mother outside the city on Beowulf.

However one important point is that if the Queen were being held on the other side of the planet, then Monroe would not be able to sense if she were dead or alive.

The question about a separation of a light-year was to point out that the information is limited by the speed of light and most likely decreases in intensity by the inverse square of the distance. So if the Malign could spirit her away on a Ghost ship with a spider drive, then Monroe could not know anything more than you or I would.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I am unsure about the range of the connection. I thought it was much farther than a mile. More like several. Anyone know for certain? I don't recall it being specifically stated. The Yawata Strike is our best indication, and I recall it being somewhat vague.

I don't think the bond works like that. How would they locate her depending on the bond? Unless their bond is as unprecedented as Honor's and Nimitz'. Then they can share images. But if the Queen is blindfolded the entire time, or at critical times as is the norm with smart kidnappers, that is a no go.

If we agree that the strength of the bond decreases with distance (and I think that we do), then you can eventually triangulate. Move Monroe along a road, if the signal remains nearly constant, then she is off in some way to the side. So move along a road that is perpendicular to the first and see in which direction the signal gets stronger to get a general direction toward her. Repeat this procedure from some widely separated points and find the area where these these pointers come closest to each other to get to the suspect neighborhood. Then repeat, getting closer and closer.

Of course if the bond has a directional component then Monroe does not have to be driven to monitor signal strength, but can just point in the direction toward his person. We know from the short story about rescuing children buried by an avalanche, "The Long Way Home", that Nimitz could home in on the direction to mind glows.

I do not think the Yawata Strike will necessarily tell you a distance for two individuals, since then the disappearance of an entire community caused a disturbance in the force. The information of that might have passed from clan to clan outward from the impact site and it might have involved individuals moving to get to a point where the message could be relayed.

The closest we get in the books is the short story where Honor's father (in the years before she was born) could locate her kidnapped mother outside the city on Beowulf.

However one important point is that if the Queen were being held on the other side of the planet, then Monroe would not be able to sense if she were dead or alive.

The question about a separation of a light-year was to point out that the information is limited by the speed of light and most likely decreases in intensity by the inverse square of the distance. So if the Malign could spirit her away on a Ghost ship with a spider drive, then Monroe could not know anything more than you or I would.

Triangulation using the strength of the bond is brilliant. I considered that but we cannot be sure if the bond is so accommodating. It could be that it is either in range, or not. It would certainly make it interesting if the strength of the bond changes with distance. I am more willing to accept that it does. But are we certain from textev? The ability to home in on the direction could be critical, but that requires the subjects to be within range.

It is certainly instrumental as to whether the MA has managed to find out particulars about the bond. That kind of information seems to be getting out more and more. Any infiltration within the government, even at low levels, might provide that information from gossip. However, I have always maintained that the particulars of Beth and Monroe's bond holds official secrets. The author always has a hole card up his sleeve as far as their bond is concerned.

At any rate, if the kidnappers know enough information, they could hold the Queen out of range, until the opportune time.

But what could be done anyway? Storming the hideout will result in the Queen's death. The captors' nanites will activate immediately.

cthia wrote:The demands may be high, but the value of the captured asset is, also, high. Part of Jonathan's sentiment rings true. 'The government shouldn't have lost such a valuable asset'. There wasn't anything foolish the RMN or the Queen's Own did. It just is what it is. This enemy is too fit to be tied.

However, the demand is playing the violin hard on the entire planet's emotions. Consider that Prince Justin is devastated and the Queen's Cat, Monroe, is beyond comforting. Let's assume Monroe was not captured. To refuse the demands will kill the Queen, widow Justin, and force the government to witness Monroe's death following quickly on the heels of the Queen's.

Incidentally, tlb, Monroe will know whether the Queen lives. Or the exact moment of her death.

I understand what you're saying. I just don't think you're right. Instead of a morose populace clamouring for giving in and getting their beloved head of state back (whether it's the Queen/Empress, the Andermani Emperor, or the Protector of Grayson), I expect they'd be enraged and demanding the military and security forces take any and all possible actions to get them back. If this beloved ruler is actually harmed or worse, that would send the population into an uncontrollable rage that would only be quenched by time or by the perpetrators' heads on spikes.

And the treecats would be the ones leading this charge, with Monroe as the tip of the spear. They do understand the "Soul of Steel's Clan" importance to their two-legs. Remember they only have two categories for enemies: those that are dead and those who still need to be dealt with. They don't understand (or care for) the nuances of diplomacy and negotiation.

tlb wrote:Of course if the bond has a directional component then Monroe does not have to be driven to monitor signal strength, but can just point in the direction toward his person. We know from the short story about rescuing children buried by an avalanche, "The Long Way Home", that Nimitz could home in on the direction to mind glows.

[cut]

The closest we get in the books is the short story where Honor's father (in the years before she was born) could locate her kidnapped mother outside the city on Beowulf.

We actually have a better reference and it tells us the bond is highly directional. In "A Beautiful Friendship," both Climbs Quickly and Stephanie could point directly at where the other was, even at some distance away. We have a passage of Stephanie at her home choosing a direction and pointing to where Climbs Quickly was because she just knew. And of course, after her glider accident, it was this directionality that allowed Climbs Quickly to quickly reach her before the deathfang (hexapuma) could fatally injure her.

The case of Alfred and Allison is the only known one between two humans.

Here's the thing. Personally I am shocked. Shocked I tell you. Shocked at the cold-heartedness at the core of everyone's stance. We are talking about the Queen of Manticore. Queen Elizabeth III to be exact. One of the most decent people ever born in all of the Galaxy. We are talking about Honor Harrington's very good friend. We are talking about a woman who is an exalted member of the Winton Dynasty.

And she is alive. Captured. But. She. Is. Alive.

Her life is being offered to you as part of a negotiation between governments. All of you want to turn your back on her and ignore the opportunity to free her. You are implying that your soul is composed of stronger metal than the Soul of Steel.

Duty? All in the name of duty? Or revenge. That is what it boils down to. At the core of your decision is the human need of cold-hearted revenge. Well, spending Beth's life to get your revenge certainly serves the dish up something proper. Cold.

You are saying that you can turn down the demands and kill her, when you could have saved her. You are saying that you can forfeit her life and still be able to ever look into the eyes of every single spacer and citizen of Manticore again. Let alone the royal family. You are saying that you can live with the decision. You can sleep well at night.

You can't. The government can't. The Winton Dynasty can't. Eloise Pritchart can't. Grayson, can't. Way too many officers in the PRH, can't. The People can't. Not a single treecat would forfeit the life of the woman who fought for them, for the woman they named "Soul of Steel."

The Alignment is not asking for Manticore's surrender. They aren't even asking for any of the demands they sortied upon the Sollies. The are not asking for control of the MWJ. They are not intending to occupy the MBS. They did not destroy a single bit of infrastructure.

They are simply asking to bury the hatchet. Peace. They are asking for peace. The Soul of Steel never thought she could forgive the Peeps for all of their wretched wickedness through the many long years. She would never have believed she could forgive the Peeps and let bygones be bygones. They assassinated her father! But lo and behold. An alliance built out of two gravely mortal enemies. Two vampires that feasted at each other's throats in the dark of space for an eternity.

But not now?

Really? The Alignment is not asking for much. And they are offering a lot. They are offering a grand prize to the Grand Alliance. Their collateral is huge, for the value of the Soul of Steel is priceless, a priceless commodity across all markets political, naval, and moral.

But you would let her die to satisfy your need for revenge. So that is what is meant when the Galaxy echoes "For the Honor of the Queen."

I am reminded of a very bad unbalanced decision made by a man named Elvis Santino.

Although I detested the man, Oscar Saint-Just proved that diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means, when living to fight another day.

cthia wrote:Here's the thing. Personally I am shocked. Shocked I tell you. Shocked at the cold-heartedness at the core of everyone's stance. We are talking about the Queen of Manticore. Queen Elizabeth III to be exact. One of the most decent people ever born in all of the Galaxy. We are talking about Honor Harrington's very good friend. We are talking about a woman who is an exalted member of the Winton Dynasty.

And she is alive. Captured. But. She. Is. Alive.

Her life is being offered to you as part of a negotiation between governments. All of you want to turn your back on her and ignore the opportunity to free her. You are implying that your soul is composed of stronger metal than the Soul of Steel.

Duty? All in the name of duty? Or revenge. That is what it boils down to. At the core of your decision is the human need of cold-hearted revenge. Well, spending Beth's life to get your revenge certainly serves the dish up something proper. Cold.

You are saying that you can turn down the demands and kill her, when you could have saved her. You are saying that you can forfeit her life and still be able to ever look into the eyes of every single spacer and citizen of Manticore again. Let alone the royal family. You are saying that you can live with the decision. You can sleep well at night.

You can't. The government can't. The Winton Dynasty can't. Eloise Pritchart can't. Grayson, can't. Way too many officers in the PRH, can't. The People can't. Not a single treecat would forfeit the life of the woman who fought for them, for the woman they named "Soul of Steel."

-snip-

But you would let her die to satisfy your need for revenge. So that is what is meant when the Galaxy echoes "For the Honor of the Queen."

I am reminded of a very bad unbalanced decision made by a man named Elvis Santino.

Although I detested the man, Oscar Saint-Just proved that diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means, when living to fight another day.

You flights of fantasy in defense of thinking someone could seriously try to negotiate for the return of a kidnapped Queen are in no way believable, because the idea that someone could trust the Malign to negotiate in good faith is not believable. We are not in favor of killing her; we simply do not believe that it is possible to have a successful negotiation and it will be the Malign that kills her, unless there is a successful rescue. This is not due to a cold-hearted wish for revenge (that will come when it is proved that the Queen died in their hands), instead it is a clear-headed understanding of the moral worth of the Malign.

What Saint-Just proved was that the offered diplomacy was just a ploy to buy time until the war could be resumed on advantageous terms. The Manticoran government made the mistake of accepting and then made a second mistake by not getting a peace treaty when Haven's government changed to one that could be trusted.

The Alignment is not asking for Manticore's surrender. They aren't even asking for any of the demands they sortied upon the Sollies. The are not asking for control of the MWJ. They are not intending to occupy the MBS. They did not destroy a single bit of infrastructure.

They are simply asking to bury the hatchet. Peace. They are asking for peace. The Soul of Steel never thought she could forgive the Peeps for all of their wretched wickedness through the many long years. She would never have believed she could forgive the Peeps and let bygones be bygones. They assassinated her father! But lo and behold. An alliance built out of two gravely mortal enemies. Two vampires that feasted at each other's throats in the dark of space for an eternity.

But not now?

Really? The Alignment is not asking for much. And they are offering a lot. They are offering a grand prize to the Grand Alliance. Their collateral is huge, for the value of the Soul of Steel is priceless, a priceless commodity across all markets political, naval, and moral.

This is just the purest drivel; if you really believe it (which I doubt), then I wonder what the color of the sky is in your world.