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Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?

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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:22 am

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No one is crying. The GA will happily live in "peace", until they find the Malign hideout. But they are aware, as you do not seem to be, that is is not true peace until the Malign is forced to give up its plan; that any agreement is just a respite, until the Malign tries something lethal again. So the threat of a rain of KEW's is always present, no matter what the words on the paper may say.

This whole discussion, is gotten to the point of repetition; you are repeating yourself and forcing us to repeat our responses in turn.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:45 am

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tlb wrote:No one is crying. The GA will happily live in "peace", until they find the Malign hideout. But they are aware, as you do not seem to be, that is is not true peace until the Malign is forced to give up its plan; that any agreement is just a respite, until the Malign tries something lethal again. So the threat of a rain of KEW's is always present, no matter what the words on the paper may say.

This whole discussion, is gotten to the point of repetition; you are repeating yourself and forcing us to repeat our responses in turn.

Of course I am aware it is not true peace! The MA can't have peace until their plan is complete. The GA can't have peace until the cancer is eradiated with energy weapons.

None of that is the immediate concern. Get Beth home safely! Let them play their games. Stubbornness all the way to Beths's grave is ridiculous.

BTW, the MA is not part of any conventions. Cherwell or otherwise. They don't even respect the Beowulf Code. So, they can not be held to any of those standards. And they have been quite clear about their rules of engagement.

Frankly, this maneuver of theirs speaks better of them than what the Peeps pulled. The Peeps just went ahead and assassinated the current ruler. The MA simply captured her and used her as a bargaining tool. Would you have preferred they killed her like the Peeps killed Roger?

Do you really think the government will not deal to get Beth back if the offer is on the table? Hostages have been taken since time eternal, and Governments have been bargaining ever since. What did you bump your head on? You obviously didn't digest the link I included. This is real life with real lives on the line. This is not sci-fi. Although your stance is.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:13 am

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Here's the thing. You want to keep your Queen in play on the board. If you lose her, you can "promote" someone else to a Queen later. But your strategic and tactical position changed immediately after the loss and later it may be too late. It very well might turn out to be an untenable position at the moment of her loss. And you cannot be sure the new Queen's power in this particular position at this particular juncture helps. On the chessboard, sometimes, a bishop, knight or rook is best.

IOW, Beth's successor may be all wrong in the middle of a war. Especially against this enemy. Any change of ruler and associated government may be all wrong. The Peeps thought so too. That is why King Roger was assassinated. Against the Alignment, Beth's 'Soul of Steel' will be tested. Any other mettle in the form of any other Queen and her government might be bent or broken. Manticore got lucky when it was forced to "promote" QEIII. You think they should roll the dice twice?

On the chessboard I've seen brilliant Queen sacrifices for overwhelming position. My niece likes to use it (the little snot). She'll dangle her out seemingly unprotected like bait. You take. She pounces. It is usually a quite brutal and decisive strike.


You do have a point in all of the above. But the question is just how much all of that weighs compared to the demands being made for her safe return. Are they worth it?

That is what it comes down to, isn't it? Is Beth worth it? :o

"Honor! Stop choking him!"

Please do think on that one a bit longer. Every single person who ever died under Harrington's command was worth it. She would have gladly bargained for their lives if she could have. And she always tried. She even bargained for the enemy's lives. But if their death was unavoidable, then what more could she have done. But she was always left with nightmares asking herself that very same question.

Beth's death is unavoidable. And your stance will either leave you with Honor's same nightmares of guilt, or else your lack of compassion shows that you are an MA sleeper, or a lost line.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Especially if you don't think the other side is negotiating in good faith. They're criminals and murderers, after all.

Back to this ridiculous waste of time at the negotiating table. People. Hear me. You don't think anything of the sort! You know for a fact! That this enemy is not negotiating in good faith! They are biding for time just like Saint-Just did. Give them the time. You can just put that same time to good use for yourself. Plus bring Beth home safely. Her death is needless. More than unnecessary. Much greater that pointless.

cthia wrote:All of you aim at a decisive counterstrike. Which is impossible if you don't know where to find the foe. You also seem to care more about your position, which is logical. So a Queen sacrifice seems reasonable, even if it is out of necessity instead of by design. It is simply that it will hurt as much as it oftentimes does on the board. It could turn out to be a losing proposition.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:Not exactly. The aim is a successful and decisive rescue. The queen can't simply vanish and reappear at an undisclosed location. There will be some trace of how she got taken where she went and how she was taken there. Therefore, a rescue operation is very much a possibility and has a high chance of getting there. In fact, the very last thing the kidnappers would want is to take Beth to Darius.

Nope. The aim is a successful return of the Queen. A rescue is a risky and pointless venture against a foe that has fanatics willing to suicide without a second thought. And they certainly won't have a second thought of taking Beth with them. These aren't street thugs who don't have a clue.

I don't think the plan will be to get her off the planet. It isn't necessary. And the RMN is not that incompetent anyway. All ingress and egress points to/from space will be sealed shut. This mission is a one-way trip for the kidnappers. It is a suicide mission. Suicide missions are a way of life for this enemy. They eat them for lunch. They have a special tooth.

.
Last edited by cthia on Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:40 am

cthia
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cthia wrote:Renege on your agreement with this enemy, and THEY WILL KEW YOUR PLANET INTO COMPLIANCE.

This exposes a weakness of the GA. The GA's moral fiber is influenced and decided by the Queen, by Honor, by the forces she commands.

The MA is not above KEWING a planet. Honor won't allow the RMN to become their enemy. The MA knows that too. They can kill a planet, knowing the act won't be reciprocated.

This is a smart enemy that hijacked the entire government and brought them to the negotiating table in front of the entire Galaxy. Audrey O'Hanrahan reporting.

Don't misstep again and step on a much bigger landmine.

It is insane to back a snake into a corner and make it go to plan B. Unless you are without a doubt prepared to kill it. For certain. Cancers are hard to pin down.

The GA ain't prepared.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:04 pm

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cthia wrote:The demands stand. In front of God, Tester, and the entire Galaxy. The MA is demanding peace. They used whatever means they thought necessary to get to the negotiating table. And there is no need for bloodshed, unless your actions bid it necessary. Accept the demands and we will return your Queen.


How do we know that?

Later you wrote:
Nope. The aim is a successful return of the Queen. A rescue is a risky and pointless venture against a foe that has fanatics willing to suicide without a second thought.


What shred of proof does the GA have that these perps will return the Queen, once they have got whatever they wanted (which may not be what they asked for)?

None. Therefore, a rescue operation MUST be planned and executed if at all possible. Sure, while the perps still talking, the Queen is still verified to be alive, and the rescue has a below-threshold-to-be-determined chance of success, keep talking and don't launch it. The moment any of those conditions change, the rescue operation is launched. And if that was because the Queen is dead, then it changes from rescue to simple criminal capture.

In fact, you said:
Back to this ridiculous waste of time at the negotiating table. People. Hear me. You don't think anything of the sort! You know for a fact! That this enemy is not negotiating in good faith! They are biding for time just like Saint-Just did. Give them the time. You can just put that same time to good use for yourself.


You're agreeing with us that they're not negotiating in good faith. Therefore, there's absolutely no reason to believe they have the intention of returning the Queen safe and sound. In fact, it would be very much to their interests to not return her alive, because we've established she's critical enough to the populace and morale to warrant kidnapping in the first place.

So, knowing the perps do not plan on returning her safe and sound, your stance on biding for time and not launching a rescue operation is counter-productive. You know they won't comply with any agreements, you know the best chance of the Queen being returned is to launch a rescue. So why the hell not do it? Why agree to anything?

Moreover:
Call the demands whatever you like. What is implied is that the Galaxy knows Manticore agreed to the demands. And the Queen was returned no worse for wear.


Setting aside the fact that I don't think the Queen would be returned at all, why would Manticore put its reputation on the line in agreeing to anything but a stoner's "peace and love and prosperity?"

They know the MAlign is not going to stop until they're successful in their nefarious plan. They know the MAlign is not negotiating in good faith. But they also know that their word is bond.

On one hand, you seem to imply that Manticore should say anything the perps want to hear just to get the Queen back, with no intention of following up on it. On the other, you say Manticore's reputation is on the line. So which one is it?

Oh, sure, the perps would want to do that. They want Manticore to promise things that it cannot comply with without losing reputation. That's not the problem in this discussion. The problem is why the GA and Manticore would agree to make those promises in the first place, even for the Queen.

Renege on your agreement with this enemy, and THEY WILL KEW YOUR PLANET INTO COMPLIANCE.

Hard heads make soft asses.


And this changes the situation how, exactly? Because you wrote:

If you don't think this enemy will KEW your planet, you're living in a fantasy world. Galactic opinion is preventing them from doing it now. You renege on your agreement in front of the Galaxy, then your blood is on your hands.


Your first sentence is correct and is all that is needed. The enemy will KEW the planet if they think it's in their best interests. The rest of the paragraph is pretty much irrelevant.

The second sentence is actually accurate, with the keyword being "now." That means the situation can change at any time, without the reneging. So this ruthless enemy can KEW the planet at any time. Therefore, why give a word of bond to an enemy that can't be trusted to honour their side of the bargain?

The third sentence is drivel. Whoever commits the atrocity has the blood on their hands. Don't blame the victims.

You still don't know where their lair is. Until you find it, you need as much time as they do. Unlike your position when you were dealing with Saint-Just.


Correct, but irrelevant. The perps won't keep the hostage alive for that long. No one, including and especially the Manticore government, knows how long it will take to find the lair. They also don't know that finding the lair will lead to a rescue of the Queen and the end to hostilities. They can't gamble on stalling the release negotiations until they find the lair.

Therefore, the expiration on the negotiations has nothing to do with the operations to find Darius. And the perpetrators know this too: they will kill their hostage if their demands aren't met by a given time of their own choosing. That's the deadline everyone is operating under.

You may be dealing with the devil. But then, you already knew that. GET BETH BACK!

The MA outmaneuvered you. Stop crying.


If the MAlign manages to get the Queen, yes, they've somehow outmanoeuvred the GA. But I don't see a workable path to the Queen's return.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:01 am

cthia
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Excusez-moi.

Let's put some things into perspective.

The Manticoran government accepted the cease-fire offered by Saint-Just, who was also known to be the devil in disguise.

Wait, move to strike. What disguise!

The man is the author of so much dishonesty and cold-blooded killing. He had a known bloodthirsty sadistic maniac working for him named Cordelia Ransom.

Saint-Just launched a Black Ops scheme called Operation Hassan for the sole purpose to buy time, by killing the leadership of BOTH Manticore AND Grayson. Hot on the heels of that failed attempt, he offered a truce that the Manticoran government accepted!

Saint-Just's cease-fire cost Manticore a much earlier victory and end to the war. It stopped cold White Haven's direct thrust to the heart of the Haven System.

By comparison, what is different in accepting this truce?

Manticore's cost dealing with Saint-Just

1. An early victory. An end to the war.
2. The initiative.
3. More lives were lost when Saint-Just unceremoniously resumed hostilities.


What did Manticore gain?

Not a damn thing.


What would Manticore lose accepting the cease-fire offered by the MA?

Nothing. There are presently no operations against Darius.


What would Manticore gain accepting this cease-fire with the MA?

1. Queen Elizabeth's life.


Make me understand your stance at the bargaining table.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:35 am

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cthia wrote:The MA is demanding peace. They used whatever means they thought necessary to get to the negotiating table. And there is no need for bloodshed, unless your actions bid it necessary. Accept the demands and we will return your Queen.

Call the demands whatever you like. What is implied is that the Galaxy knows Manticore agreed to the demands. And the Queen was returned no worse for wear.

You say the Malign is demanding "peace" in order to return the Queen. I think we are all in agreement that if "peace" is the only demand made, then the paper will be signed and the Queen will be returned.

Here is the part of the claimed Malign demand that I do not understand and I need your explanation: the Malign already has as much "peace" as they ever will get, because no one knows where they are except for their Renaissance Factor guards at the gate. So what additional "peace" have they achieved by this ploy? Meanwhile the kidnapping advertises to the galaxy that this criminal conspiracy exists (which seems to make them less safe).
Last edited by tlb on Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:54 pm

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cthia wrote:Excusez-moi.

Let's put some things into perspective.

The Manticoran government accepted the cease-fire offered by Saint-Just, who was also known to be the devil in disguise.


No, High Ridge saw an opportunity to prolong the state of war (and its tax income) while not having to fight it and he used Saint-Just for that.

To the point, you have to answer "what's in it for them."

Saint-Just launched a Black Ops scheme called Operation Hassan for the sole purpose to buy time, by killing the leadership of BOTH Manticore AND Grayson. Hot on the heels of that failed attempt, he offered a truce that the Manticoran government accepted!


A short-sighted government that saw that ploy come back to bite them in their behinds later. Are you assuming that such a short-sighted government will be in power at the moment of the Queen's kidnapping and ransom demands?

Or are you assuming a capable government like Baron Grantville? And advised by the Alexander-Harringtons.

By comparison, what is different in accepting this truce?

Manticore's cost dealing with Saint-Just

1. An early victory. An end to the war.
2. The initiative.
3. More lives were lost when Saint-Just unceremoniously resumed hostilities.


What did Manticore gain?

Not a damn thing.


Given how much it lost and how little it gained, why in the Galaxy would any Manticore government accept a deal like that again?

"Those who don't read history are doomed to repeat it." In a prolong society where the people actually lived that history, it's quite unlikely to repeat the same mistakes that soon.


What would Manticore lose accepting the cease-fire offered by the MA?

Nothing. There are presently no operations against Darius.


Your own arguments work against you. You've just proven that Manticore lost a lot in dealing with Saint-Just, then you go on and say it wouldn't lose anything in dealing with the MAlign.

Especially when you're also being clear that this binds Manticore to its word and therefore having to honour whatever agreement was made, and you've said that the GA would never be happy until it eradicated this cancer. So if it did find Darius, it would fight.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:18 am

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Excusez-moi.

Let's put some things into perspective.

The Manticoran government accepted the cease-fire offered by Saint-Just, who was also known to be the devil in disguise.


No, High Ridge saw an opportunity to prolong the state of war (and its tax income) while not having to fight it and he used Saint-Just for that.

To the point, you have to answer "what's in it for them."

Queen Elizabeth's life is in it for them. Please. Focus.

Like I said, there was no military gain. The fact that a few rubles were made or saved is irrelevant. That was simply a deal of the devil to make the rich richer.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Saint-Just launched a Black Ops scheme called Operation Hassan for the sole purpose to buy time, by killing the leadership of BOTH Manticore AND Grayson. Hot on the heels of that failed attempt, he offered a truce that the Manticoran government accepted!


A short-sighted government that saw that ploy come back to bite them in their behinds later. Are you assuming that such a short-sighted government will be in power at the moment of the Queen's kidnapping and ransom demands?

Well, it could end up as such if a new government takes power. But in general, heck no. That is my point, only a short-sighted government would be so consumed with jumping at shadows that they would not accept the Queen's return.

Let's also put that in perspective ...

"Nah, you can keep her. She is tainted goods? We don't trust that there are no strings attached? Our astrology says no? It is not in the tarot cards? We might pay for it later?"

The entire Galaxy mourned Honor's capture and her torture. When did Honor become more valuable than Queen Elizabeth on the board?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Or are you assuming a capable government like Baron Grantville? And advised by the Alexander-Harringtons.

Yes! One that won't turn down saving the Queen's life! High Ridge's government would have thrown her in front of an air lorry.

And people, a rescue like what Saburo X commanded would only get the Queen killed. Conditioned kidnappers would not be shocked into inaction as on Mesa when the commode exploded and shit hit the fan. LOL

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:By comparison, what is different in accepting this truce?

Manticore's cost dealing with Saint-Just

1. An early victory. An end to the war.
2. The initiative.
3. More lives were lost when Saint-Just unceremoniously resumed hostilities.


What did Manticore gain?

Not a damn thing.


Given how much it lost and how little it gained, why in the Galaxy would any Manticore government accept a deal like that again?

The Queen's life. 'tap tap tap' ... Is this mic on?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Those who don't read history are doomed to repeat it." In a prolong society where the people actually lived that history, it's quite unlikely to repeat the same mistakes that soon.

So you want to make a bigger mistake by allowing the Queen to die? Repeating what history? No ruler has ever been kidnapped. This is unprecedented. Uncharted space.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:What would Manticore lose accepting the cease-fire offered by the MA?

Nothing. There are presently no operations against Darius.


Your own arguments work against you. You've just proven that Manticore lost a lot in dealing with Saint-Just, then you go on and say it wouldn't lose anything in dealing with the MAlign.

Especially when you're also being clear that this binds Manticore to its word and therefore having to honour whatever agreement was made, and you've said that the GA would never be happy until it eradicated this cancer. So if it did find Darius, it would fight.

Yes, Manticore lost a lost. And they went into it with their eyes open. They saw what they were losing. They knew what they had on their plate.

What would they be losing that is on their plate now? There are no operations. They don't even know where to find the prey. They might never find the enemy. Or, if they do, it could be another century. Which leaves only the one concern of actually having to give up the hunt. You could have brought your much loved Queen home. Instead of bowing in fear to the unknowns that may lie ahead. That is ridiculous. You seem to be blind to the fact that even in turning down the offer, lives will still inevitably and unavoidably be lost down the road anyway?

I did mention that Beth has been kidnapped and her life is being offered in return for a cease-fire?

Besides, why can't someone else hunt?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:59 am

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cthia wrote:The MA is demanding peace. They used whatever means they thought necessary to get to the negotiating table. And there is no need for bloodshed, unless your actions bid it necessary. Accept the demands and we will return your Queen.

Call the demands whatever you like. What is implied is that the Galaxy knows Manticore agreed to the demands. And the Queen was returned no worse for wear.

You say the Malign is demanding "peace" in order to return the Queen. I think we are all in agreement that if "peace" is the only demand made, then the paper will be signed and the Queen will be returned.

Here is the part of the claimed Malign demand that I do not understand and I need your explanation: the Malign already has as much "peace" as they ever will get, because no one knows where they are except for the Renaissance Factor guards at their gate. So what additional "peace" have they achieved by this ploy? Meanwhile the kidnapping advertises to the galaxy that this criminal conspiracy exists (which seems to make them less safe).

Is this question unanswerable (because you seem to be ignoring it)?
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