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Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?

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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:49 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:Note that this is a real-world threat vector. Hidden flaws in random number generators can be used to decode secure communications, and why in the old days you couldn't export crypto with too big a key space.

tlb wrote:Just checking to see if we are on the same page.

It was my understanding that it was illegal to export a a cryto-system with too large a key, because too large a key meant that NSA would not be able to decrypt messages using that system in any reasonable amount of time.

Is that what you are saying, because it sounds like you said that too large a key made it easier to exploit flaws in pseudorandom number generators?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:He's saying that in the old days, too large keys were not allowed in exports because it would make it too hard for the NSA to crack. That's why the DES was using 56-bit keys back in the 1990s. I think ROT13 is more secure than that...

Loren Pechtel wrote:I'm comparing a flawed key generator to the restricted key space that was all that was allowed to be exported. Whether it's deliberate or accidental has nothing to do with the lack of difficulty in cracking it.

tlb wrote:I simply do not understand your point, because whether something is allowed to be exported is a legal issue and generally is related to the difficult of decryption. That is: the more difficult to decrypt, then the more restrictions on export.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Loren can answer what he meant, but what I understood and meant myself was comparing a flawed RNG to the limitations that existed before 1996 (and those that still do if you don't register or isn't Open Source). I'm old enough that my first crypto application was PGPi: the international version of PGP, which was exported from the US by printing a book, which enjoyed First Amendment protections, and OCR-scanning it elsewhere(*).

The problem isn't legality, it's the effect: a limited key space makes brute-force attacking the the possible solutions much, much easier.

(*) DVD Jon later printed the encryption keys for DVDs on T-shirts and that enjoyed similar protections. IIRC, there were also songs of someone singing them...

I have included more of the conversation, because at the very beginning he stated that large key spaces were illegal to export because flaws in the random number generator made them easy to decrypt.
I then stated my understanding of why large key spaces were illegal to export and you basically restated what I said and attributed it to him.

Now we have your current statement:
1) legality was very much the question, because the law would not have been set up the way it was if big key spaces were easy to decrypt.
2) a flawed RNG is NOT comparable to the limitations that existed before 1996 and in fact is irrelevant to the discussion of what cryptographic software can be exported without restriction. (functionally a flawed RNG makes the key space equivalent to that of a smaller key, but the law does not not provide an exception for such flaws)

I am aware of various free speech fights that eventually got the law changed, but there still are restrictions on the export of strong cryptographic software and those have nothing to due with possible flaws in a random number generator. Take a look at this article:
NORTHWESTERN JOURNAL OF TECHNOLOGY AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY 2013
Here is the relevant portion:
The export of encryption products from the United States is regulated by a variety of governmental agencies. The primary regulator of encryption exports is the Commerce Department's Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS), which administers the Export Administration Regulations (EAR). The EAR govern the export of any dual-use commodities, including encryption systems.

Encryption products are regulated under Category 5, Part 2 of the EAR. Generally, if an item to be exported uses or contains cryptography, is not designed for medical end use, and does not limit the use of cryptography to intellectual property or copyright protection functions (as with a DVD), then the item is regulated under Category 5, Part 2. The regulations governing cryptography export have been relaxed in recent years, but still require exporters to determine for themselves the licenses and other documentation required for their software exports, taking into account the software to be exported, the person or entity to whom the software is being sold, and additional factors.

The first factor exporters must consider is the attributes of the software to be exported. One primary consideration is key length: Category 5, Part 2 specifies that encryption systems with key lengths of 56 bits or less for symmetric systems, or 512 bits or less for asymmetric systems, can be exported without restriction; however, those key lengths represent weak encryption, and strong encryption systems, which must use longer keys, face export restrictions. Furthermore, there is an exemption for so-called "mass market" encryption products; if an encryption product is generally available to the public, for home or personal use, without continuing support by the supplier (e.g., a personal email security program), then its export is not restricted by this section. A final important exemption is for products "when accompanying their user for the user's personal use or as tools of the trade . . ."; this allows users to, for example, travel with laptops and mobile phones that contain encryption capabilities (as essentially all do).
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:32 pm

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tlb wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Note that this is a real-world threat vector. Hidden flaws in random number generators can be used to decode secure communications, and why in the old days you couldn't export crypto with too big a key space.

I have included more of the conversation, because at the very beginning he stated that large key spaces were illegal to export because flaws in the random number generator made them easy to decrypt.


Ah, I see the problem. You understood the "and why" as a cause-consequence. That's not how I understood / interpreted it and I guess that's not what Loren meant. It's probably imprecise wording on Loren's part and my reading between the lines too.

I understood him as saying that the two things had a common cause, which was implied: restricted key spaces.

Anyway, we're now violently agreeing with each other, so I guess we can let the matter aside and go back to discussing how the MAlign would not do stupidly reckless things for little gain.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:13 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:Note that this is a real-world threat vector. Hidden flaws in random number generators can be used to decode secure communications, and why in the old days you couldn't export crypto with too big a key space.

tlb wrote:I have included more of the conversation, because at the very beginning he stated that large key spaces were illegal to export because flaws in the random number generator made them easy to decrypt.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Ah, I see the problem. You understood the "and why" as a cause-consequence. That's not how I understood / interpreted it and I guess that's not what Loren meant. It's probably imprecise wording on Loren's part and my reading between the lines too.

I understood him as saying that the two things had a common cause, which was implied: restricted key spaces.

Anyway, we're now violently agreeing with each other, so I guess we can let the matter aside and go back to discussing how the MAlign would not do stupidly reckless things for little gain.

You are correct, that is the way I was reading it and do no see any other way to read it. Because there is no other reason for adding the bit about "why in the old days you couldn't export crypto with too big a key space"; it is a total non sequitur, unless it is related to the concern about the flawed random number generator.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:40 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Loren can answer what he meant, but what I understood and meant myself was comparing a flawed RNG to the limitations that existed before 1996 (and those that still do if you don't register or isn't Open Source). I'm old enough that my first crypto application was PGPi: the international version of PGP, which was exported from the US by printing a book, which enjoyed First Amendment protections, and OCR-scanning it elsewhere(*).

The problem isn't legality, it's the effect: a limited key space makes brute-force attacking the the possible solutions much, much easier.


Yeah, you understand what I was saying.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:08 pm

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Between Galton and and the new line being fed to Audrey O'Hanrahan (and we have to guess that is the same line being spread to other True Believers and persons where it will do the most good) the water has truly been muddied again as to what the Alignment wants, where it is and there is yet another "bad guys" group as a splinter of the Alighment which is -so far- not yet visible to the GA

The Arsenal System of Galton has been defeated, massive loss of life -a bunch of it self inflicted- and much information lost. We are supposed to presume that with the destruction (obliteration) of those last giant forts/habitats/industrial centers, that ALL of the people who knew the truth about Galton vis the Alighment are now safely dead and all the records gone.

We, the readers, know this isn't true. The question is where will the existing threads --Anton Zilwicki, Princess Ruth and company--have at least one that appears to ultimately be going to lead to that clandestine wormhole with Darius on the other side. They know there is something odd about the traffic but they are going to have to go looking for what it is.

Is it possible that the Alignment has a 3rd (well 4th if you count Mesa) system which is all staffed up and expanding it's industrial capasity and R&D as we speak? Sure. The Alighment has already figured out to "manage" a population of genetic cloned people including two (Galton and Darius) which the Genetic Slaves have no idea they are slaves and there is a massive top set of layers of StarLine individuals on top. Back to the whole Cast format and inculcated belief by the non-star people that this is the way it is and must be.

One little challenge with Darius is there a lot of people from various levels of the Onion who know better, having grown up on Mesa etc and are being kept separate from that underclass part of the population.

To this point, the Alpha Lines appear to have taken the approach that they will be (mostly) invisible pupetmasters and the subduing of the rest of humanity is going to take a little bit longer because of this pesky Manticorian and Haven messing with the program. They also seem- right from the 1st introduction of the Alighment where Albrect is thinking about ultimately rubbing Beowulf's face in the supremacy of the Detweiler philosophy over Beowulf's philosophy.
Then they blew up the three habitats at Beowulf.......not exactly subtle. Go ahead, tweek the sort of impotent (against us) GA because we are going to win in the end and take pleasure in revealing our mastery.

Sigh
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by cthia   » Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:19 am

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Brigade XO wrote:Between Galton and and the new line being fed to Audrey O'Hanrahan (and we have to guess that is the same line being spread to other True Believers and persons where it will do the most good) the water has truly been muddied again as to what the Alignment wants, where it is and there is yet another "bad guys" group as a splinter of the Alighment which is -so far- not yet visible to the GA

The Arsenal System of Galton has been defeated, massive loss of life -a bunch of it self inflicted- and much information lost. We are supposed to presume that with the destruction (obliteration) of those last giant forts/habitats/industrial centers, that ALL of the people who knew the truth about Galton vis the Alighment are now safely dead and all the records gone.

We, the readers, know this isn't true. The question is where will the existing threads --Anton Zilwicki, Princess Ruth and company--have at least one that appears to ultimately be going to lead to that clandestine wormhole with Darius on the other side. They know there is something odd about the traffic but they are going to have to go looking for what it is.

Yeah, I think the idea that there will be loose ends found in all of the captuted data being sorted and cross-referenced by Ruth that leads to Darius is strong. I'd wager it is a given. I also wonder if there will be any yield when questioning people in the captured system. Although, one would have to wonder if everyone at Galton is conditioned and will begin to drop dead at the beginning of interrogations. At what point will the RMN cease interrogations? They can't kill, even indirectly, an entire population.

Brigade XO wrote:Is it possible that the Alignment has a 3rd (well 4th if you count Mesa) system which is all staffed up and expanding it's industrial capasity and R&D as we speak? Sure. The Alighment has already figured out to "manage" a population of genetic cloned people including two (Galton and Darius) which the Genetic Slaves have no idea they are slaves and there is a massive top set of layers of StarLine individuals on top. Back to the whole Cast format and inculcated belief by the non-star people that this is the way it is and must be.

Personally, I think there is a big chance there is yet another system. Such a paranoid entity would not have stopped searching for ever more hiding places. And what better use of their genetic brilliance than to use it to adapt to the most extreme systems. That would ensure Detweiler's original vision of sticking a thumb in Beowulf's eye, even if they lost in the end. And if the author can do it once, he can do it a second or third time. In for a penny, in for a pound. Besides, "only a poor rat has one hole to run to," always applies.

Brigade XO wrote:One little challenge with Darius is there a lot of people from various levels of the Onion who know better, having grown up on Mesa etc and are being kept separate from that underclass part of the population.

To this point, the Alpha Lines appear to have taken the approach that they will be (mostly) invisible pupetmasters and the subduing of the rest of humanity is going to take a little bit longer because of this pesky Manticorian and Haven messing with the program. They also seem- right from the 1st introduction of the Alighment where Albrect is thinking about ultimately rubbing Beowulf's face in the supremacy of the Detweiler philosophy over Beowulf's philosophy.
Then they blew up the three habitats at Beowulf.......not exactly subtle. Go ahead, tweek the sort of impotent (against us) GA because we are going to win in the end and take pleasure in revealing our mastery.

Sigh

You know, I always wonder how many layers of the Onion there really are. Even inside the Onion. What does being brought inside the Onion actually mean? Do you have full clearance on all matters? Is there complete transparency? The true Inner Onion is the Detweilers and/or LRPB? So, I cannot fathom there not being an out or an escape designed into the overall scheme of things. A truly inner core of need to knowers who can start the whole thing over again. That core would be the Detweilers. Blood is thicker than water. Cloned blood must be even thicker and everlasting than mud.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by tlb   » Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:48 am

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Brigade XO wrote:The Arsenal System of Galton has been defeated, massive loss of life -a bunch of it self inflicted- and much information lost. We are supposed to presume that with the destruction (obliteration) of those last giant forts/habitats/industrial centers, that ALL of the people who knew the truth about Galton vis the Alighment are now safely dead and all the records gone.

We, the readers, know this isn't true. The question is where will the existing threads --Anton Zilwicki, Princess Ruth and company--have at least one that appears to ultimately be going to lead to that clandestine wormhole with Darius on the other side. They know there is something odd about the traffic but they are going to have to go looking for what it is.

cthia wrote:Yeah, I think the idea that there will be loose ends found in all of the captuted data being sorted and cross-referenced by Ruth that leads to Darius is strong. I'd wager it is a given. I also wonder if there will be any yield when questioning people in the captured system. Although, one would have to wonder if everyone at Galton is conditioned and will begin to drop dead at the beginning of interrogations. At what point will the RMN cease interrogations? They can't kill, even indirectly, an entire population.

If things were done right, then anyone who knew about Darius died when the final two fortresses were blown up by the internal suicide bombs. Also there should not be anything explicit anywhere else in Galton. So we, the readers, do not know anything that differs from that state of affairs.

The only trace that I can imagine which might still exist is traffic records of visitors from outside, who then went to the main fortress. But I do not know how you could correlate that with anything else known.

Moreover the traffic records that Anton Zilwicki, Princess Ruth and company were looking at, are the ones that led to Galton. They were able to get to a general area precisely because a wormhole is not involved with that traffic.

We know that a an attack through a wormhole, that is not in support of a conventional attack through hyperspace (such occurred at Trevor's Star), is suicide. The saving grace is that if the wormhole to Darius were ever found, then the forces of Mannerheim would have a lot of explaining to do; the result of which might include the coordinates of Darius. But that presupposes that a way to defeat the viral nanotech that causes people to die would have been found (perhaps at Galton?).
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:49 am

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cthia wrote:Yeah, I think the idea that there will be loose ends found in all of the captuted data being sorted and cross-referenced by Ruth that leads to Darius is strong. I'd wager it is a given. I also wonder if there will be any yield when questioning people in the captured system. Although, one would have to wonder if everyone at Galton is conditioned and will begin to drop dead at the beginning of interrogations. At what point will the RMN cease interrogations? They can't kill, even indirectly, an entire population.


That's a good question. I think the MAlign solved the problem of OpSec by simply not having the information in Galton, ever, aside from the handful of people who knew of Darius existence. And by "handful," I really mean five or less. We know of only two, actually, but I'm being generous and assuming that there were a couple more high-level people in the know. For example, there may have been someone who was able to insert the data carried over from Darius into the computer systems of Galton -- we don't expect the top military commanders to be doing that.

And making sure those people died during the Alamo Contingency was easy. They were True Believers with capital T and capital B, so they wouldn't have tried to escape their fate or defect, like Jack McBryde did. But in any case, there must have been fail-safes and contingencies in case they didn't die. For example, they could have the nanites and they're all keyed to one another: if one dies, all of them die, with a reset only being possible if N-1 or N-2 people from the entire N agreed on it (in case of accidental death).

So there shouldn't be a need for captured people in Galton to die of nanites because there shouldn't be anyone left with important information.

But that doesn't mean the MAlign didn't leave some more people with infected nanites, just to screw with the GA.

And that leads me... is the nanite tech to be found at Galton?
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:59 pm

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My thought is that Anton Zilwicki, Princess Ruth and company have the threads to connect the traffic to that clendestine wormhole over there at the star Mannerheim is "borrowing" for naval exercises.. They have an estimate of how far the ships they have been interested in could have gotten (even with some really fun speed numbers) and still get back to the Transtellar base node on the various trips.
If it take you ---to just pick a number- 4 months in hyper to get from point X and back, that gives you a sphere of Y radius from where ever they last commonly used a wormhole. Use our own number. Even if you decide that these ships have some astounding speed/distance capability with their hyper drives, if all they did was to to point Q and do a drop/grab messages and turn turn, it means they only got no more than R distance. So it's hypothetical? What is POSSIBLY out there: You really only have a couple of options. 1) a star that has a system in which an operating base is located. It doesn't have to have a habitable planet, just enough materials to be "usefull". 2) some otherwise empty piece of the universe where "The Other Guys" have built some level of usefull base -with or without benefit of a star and related systems materials- to become the secrete lair. 3) there is a fixed meet point in deep space which is used as a courier stop and transferring all messages/materials from "the hidden base". of course there is 4) There is a wormhole that goes from ? point to said secret lair. but that is a bit odd (although it is the actual thing) but there has to be some good reason all that shipping is falling into this set of parameters.
Fun stuff.
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Re: Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:53 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:My thought is that Anton Zilwicki, Princess Ruth and company have the threads to connect the traffic to that clendestine wormhole over there at the star Mannerheim is "borrowing" for naval exercises.. They have an estimate of how far the ships they have been interested in could have gotten (even with some really fun speed numbers) and still get back to the Transtellar base node on the various trips.


Actually, they don't. There were three ships that never returned, so you don't have data on how far they could have gone. All the others were gone for a time that could have allowed them to travel 200 light-years. The wormhole is just 12 light-years away.

Maybe they captured some more data we haven't heard from, but it wasn't those slaver ships.
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