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Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy

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Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:05 am

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Howdy All!

Going from a system defense force with a large cruiser force to protect its shipping and search for slave smugglers, is going to be a challenge. What should they build first?

What should Hypatia follow and in turn copy?

Early textev often mentioned that Beowulf had one of the largest merchant marines in the SL (3rd or 4th), initially even bigger than the MMM, although gradually in the textev the MMM eclipsed and surpassed it to easy domination, the process taking RFC several years. but given ship lives lasting centuries I doubt all the freighters etc present 20 years ago in the textev 30 years in real life) suddenly disappeared, so I suspect Beowulf still has a very large MM by SL standards at least, but what should they build first?

"Serve on a destroyer to see what the navy's about."
Presumably Beowulf built most of it's lesser warships insystem, while the SD's may have ordered from elsewhere.

Bolthole has concentrated on building the biggest warships, SD's, SDP's and CLAC's, so aside from experimental work, it may not be a supplier for the smaller types.

What upgrades should Beowulf make for its own Roland's?
First, Beowulf doesn't have the potential crew shortage problem with a population 2-3 time's that of the SKM's when the Roland was designed (9-12 billion people?)so keeping the crew to 67-72 isn't necessary.

I don't know when RFC first drafted the Saltash chapters that Abigail features as CO of the station assault force of sailors so Abby could command it because there's no room aboard the Roland class for marines, but when he first described the Roland years ago, apparently to deliberately set up Abby's command opportunity. .

However, the flag bridge isn't needed in the non flag Rolands, so the flag quarters could hold at least a couple squads of marines while the flag bridge equipment could be stored away, and the space used for a gym or a VR simulator for training, so out of a 4 ship division of Rolands, the other 3 could carry at least 6 squads, not great but better than nothing. Besides the marines there would need to be at least an extra hydroponicist, a cook, an armorer and or tech or both to support the marines equipment; suits, weapons, as well as an extra SBA for 4-5 more, not counting any command echelons distributed among the 3 ships which might have only a single LT as CO for this rump company, and any extra navy spacers for redundancy on the navy side.

Beowulf could include an entire marine company aboard its Flight II Roland's. Honor's light cruiser HMS Fearless (C-56) massed about 84,000 tons in OBS, less than the new 85,000 ton Chanson class DD's, with a crew around 455 for an average of ~185 tons per crewman. Assuming that crew quarters and amenities hasn't improved in over a century (very unlikely IMO), 140 men would require almost 26,000 tons; but marines probably require lest privacy and space, so it could be less but I'll use it as a general estimate.

The second criticism is the lack of missiles, only 240. At 94 tons each that's 22,560 tons or less than 12% of the ship's mass, rather low compared to the Sag-C and Nike, but a lot of the ship's mass is necessary for the simple ship's structure. But Beowulf could add at least another 60 missiles for 5640 tons for a total of 31,540 tons without the increased ship structure, more hydroponics, mess, gym, and sanitation facilities etc, going well over the 220,290tons of the known figures.

Nonetheless the flight two Roland would be a much better fit for what the BSN and the GA need, and quite superior to the Avalon light cruiser which apparently has only 5 missile tubes per broadside. As the genesis of a Mark-16 light cruiser, the flight two could match the old heavy cruisers in the 227-234-240,000 ton range if even more missiles were added, though vastly superior tactically.
The step up building Sag-C's from the Roland seems natural enough, with the primary criticism being the lack of redundancy in the crew. Again Beowulf's much larger high tech trained population ought to answer this concern besides providing a full marine company of 155 if not more.

While ultimately the BSDF will get Alliance built Invictus type SDP's from Bolthole, it's going to take at least a couple of years just build them in Bolthole before the many months long fitting of RMN tech in Beowulf. Until then it might get some of the older SDP's from its allies, if they 're willing to share ;) , but one solution might be building their own BCP's, albeit again with improvements.

First, starting with increasing its size at least 38% to the range of the Nike if not larger would eliminate most of the criticisms, adding another 40 pods to the HoS figure would bring it up to 400, for a half hour launch time for 5600 Mk-16's or 3200 Mark-23's, while adding mini-keyholes from the outset, besides extra armor. Adding pods would gross almost 3MT, or battleship tonnage range. I suspect such an improved BCP would be quite popular with the BSN and the GA.

CLAC's shouldn't be that hard for Beowulf to build since they don't require all the armoring of the wall despite their battle steel framing, and provide early prototyping of the latest design proposals. Its quite possible the ratio of CLAC's to SDP's might be one for every two SDP's if the RMN and GSN's new construction continued to expand before OB.

The numbers of each type to be built is another point given the rebuilding of the habitats, but the sooner the better for the BSN to become an equal partner in the GA.

Your wise contributions will be appreciated, so thanks ahead of time.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy
Post by tlb   » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:23 pm

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With the end of Manpower Inc, will there be a need for a large slave hunting force?

Depending on where Beowulf trades, there also may not be a need for a large anti-pirate force.

However, Beowulf may decide to expand its forces anyway as part of the GA. But being part of the GA means, I believe, that there will be a commonality of design classes across the Alliance. That need not mean that everyone has the same proportions of each class, but that there is no relearning as people cross-train between ships of the various members.

So I think the low manpower designs will be standard, but with an allowance for larger Marine contingents depending on task.
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Re: Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:25 pm

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lyonheart wrote:Howdy All!

Going from a system defense force with a large cruiser force to protect its shipping and search for slave smugglers, is going to be a challenge. What should they build first?


The BSDF was the largest system defence force in existence outside of the Haven Sector. I think that short of Manticore and Grayson, it was the largest single-system defence force anywhere. And Manticore isn't single-system any more.

The Wiki says "In 1922 PD, the First Fleet consisted of thirty-six superdreadnoughts" and gives ART and UH as references. I've just checked ART and it quite clearly shows Adm. Holmon-Sanders bringing up the impellers on her thirty-six superdreadnoughts in front of Adm. Tsang before that worthy attempted transiting the junction to "help" Filareta.

What should Hypatia follow and in turn copy?

Early textev often mentioned that Beowulf had one of the largest merchant marines in the SL (3rd or 4th), initially even bigger than the MMM, although gradually in the textev the MMM eclipsed and surpassed it to easy domination, the process taking RFC several years. but given ship lives lasting centuries I doubt all the freighters etc present 20 years ago in the textev 30 years in real life) suddenly disappeared, so I suspect Beowulf still has a very large MM by SL standards at least, but what should they build first?

"Serve on a destroyer to see what the navy's about."
Presumably Beowulf built most of it's lesser warships insystem, while the SD's may have ordered from elsewhere.


UH told us clearly that the BSDF was already getting GA-quality superdreadnoughts. They hadn't arrived, but they were coming.

We also know the only reason they hadn't had them before was so the SLN wouldn't find out about the Haven Sector designs ahead of time. Otherwise, they'd have got SD(P)s ten years earlier.

More than that, we also know that from way back in Travis' time, Beowulf had yards capable of building at least battlecruisers. We are told that they were only 200,000 tonnes back then (I'm expecting HMS Nike BC-01 to be a revolution in design), but there were Beowulfan designs and manufacture.

So, no, Beowulf home industry is quite capable of building anything up to and including superdreadnoughts. The same passage in UH that talks about the BSDF getting SD(P)s is talking about how they are built bare-bones in Bolthole then shipped to Beowulf for final fitting. Beowulf was also producing Mk16 and Mk23 missiles.

First, Beowulf doesn't have the potential crew shortage problem with a population 2-3 time's that of the SKM's when the Roland was designed (9-12 billion people?)so keeping the crew to 67-72 isn't necessary.


Why put any more people aboard a ship than you have to? If you have the automation, use it.

The problem the Rolands had was lack of Marine support for boarding actions. Then sure, add more Marines and BSC agents where necessary. But you don't need more Navy.

I don't know when RFC first drafted the Saltash chapters that Abigail features as CO of the station assault force of sailors so Abby could command it because there's no room aboard the Roland class for marines, but when he first described the Roland years ago, apparently to deliberately set up Abby's command opportunity. .


I find it unlikely that a 225,000-tonne ship would lack volume for a couple dozen more people. The way I see it, it was lack of personnel, not lack of space. Which would tell me that the RMN had lots of Rolands and Wolfhounds, meaning they also had no need to buy into service any FF obsolescent War Harvests or Ramparts captured from Crandall.

Beowulf could include an entire marine company aboard its Flight II Roland's. Honor's light cruiser HMS Fearless (C-56) massed about 84,000 tons in OBS, less than the new 85,000 ton Chanson class DD's, with a crew around 455 for an average of ~185 tons per crewman. Assuming that crew quarters and amenities hasn't improved in over a century (very unlikely IMO), 140 men would require almost 26,000 tons; but marines probably require lest privacy and space, so it could be less but I'll use it as a general estimate.


There's some discussion that the Rolands are a war-time production compromise. They're large destroyers designed around firing Mk16 and to be produced in large quantities for force multiplication. They're not good peace-time ships; the Wolfhounds that Sarnow got for Silesia might be better at that, or maybe some new design. There's also some discussion of Minimum Viable Combatant and that we'll see a size creep, so light cruisers may be the tool of choice in the future.

We'll need to wait.

While ultimately the BSDF will get Alliance built Invictus type SDP's from Bolthole, it's going to take at least a couple of years just build them in Bolthole before the many months long fitting of RMN tech in Beowulf. Until then it might get some of the older SDP's from its allies, if they 're willing to share ;) , but one solution might be building their own BCP's, albeit again with improvements.


All indications is that it's less time than you think. Especially since after the end of the war with the SL, the GA demobilised some of its own, extant fleet. Not only does that free up Bolthole production, it just makes sense to transfer some of those ships to the Republic of Beowulf, who already had 36 x 6000 spacers trained on superdreadnoughts. The BSDF can easily man and operate 48 modern SD(P)s and cover both Beowulf and Hypatia.

I don't think any "older SD" makes sense at all. I suspect that the prior BSDF SDs, the ones that Adm. Holmon-Sanders commanded, were equivalent to pre-war RMN designs, meaning they were already above anyone else's SDs of the time. The flagship was described as being forty years old and, though the text makes it seem that's a long time (especially compared to Havenite, Manticore and Grason ships which were all less than 10), we're talking about a ship built in 1880. That's contemporary to an RMN King William or Anduril. Newer ships would be contemporary to Victory and Sphinx.

And I don't think there may be many of those left. What didn't get sold by the High Ridge government to allies or scrapped, was probably destroyed when Home Fleet was on the Battle of Manticore.
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Re: Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:11 pm

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What's the mission range look like?

If it's commerce protection then a range from DDs to BCs is what your going to want first.
At the moment, it is quite possible that Beowulf could accept the transfer of some of the more modern ships Manticore might be looking to take off the commissioned list as part of training up the SDF personnel on the equipment.

Even the existing BSDF ships below the wall are probably good enough in the short term to handle expanded duties of commerce protection and at least some of the dealing with former OFS or non-league/former league system difficulties with pirates of adventurism
Again, new construction does have the bottle neck of Manticore (and Grayson) needing to finish rebuilding their starship industries and other manufacturing. And, there is the whole question of which way the GA sees the needs developing beyond the oversight of the SL.2 and related problems.
Probably a shift back to new variations of the longer ranged/duration ships rather than warfighters.

They do have a good number of SDs but they are probably going to start recycling the eldest first as they upgrade to the Manticore current Podnaughts etc.

The merchant side is a differnt question. New builds of old designs (last 50 years and newer etc) with updated equipment and tech would probably be cost effective if you want to lay down new ships. How many merchant shipping companies went out of business and the hulls are available for purchase from the finances etc? If you could by 100 former Manticore Merchant Marine ships that had been foreclosed on as a result of the effects of Lacoon I & II, it probably wouldn't take anywhere as much money to put them back into service a contracting and waiting- for new builds of any particular design. Besides, new construction might be difficult to acquire with so many places needing to rebuild their trade and given the losses to SL flagged ships -mostly to losses after ships were take up into service by the SLN and lost in one way or another. That includes anyting grabbed to make up the logistics train of Fillerta etc.
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Re: Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:17 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Even the existing BSDF ships below the wall are probably good enough in the short term to handle expanded duties of commerce protection and at least some of the dealing with former OFS or non-league/former league system difficulties with pirates of adventurism


I think that the BSDF ships below the wall were no worse than FF. There's no reason for them to have worse ships since they could just buy the same ships that the SLN bought. So it would come down to improvements they'd gleaned from Manticore in the past half-century before the war broke out, and training.

Again, new construction does have the bottle neck of Manticore (and Grayson) needing to finish rebuilding their starship industries and other manufacturing. And, there is the whole question of which way the GA sees the needs developing beyond the oversight of the SL.2 and related problems.


The problem with that statement is that Manticore is rebuilding its starship industry with Beowulf's help. Beowulf is a major partner in all that is happening in the MBS right now. They're this close to just joining as a single nation and I don't know what's stopping them. Beowulf is certainly closer geographically than Lynx. And even compared to San Martin, they have a closer cultural relationship, lasting 4 centuries.

So while Beowulf may come second after RMN Home Fleet for the best of anything, I doubt they come behind much anything else.

Probably a shift back to new variations of the longer ranged/duration ships rather than warfighters.

They do have a good number of SDs but they are probably going to start recycling the eldest first as they upgrade to the Manticore current Podnaughts etc.


Yup. ART and UH told us they had 36 SDs and the oldest were 40 years old. That's actually better age than the RMN before the outbreak of the war. The RMN had quite a lot of SDs that were nearly 60 years old at the time and one of them was over 150. Of course, the RMN had over 5x as many SDs at the time, plus another 3.3x in DNs.

So I imagine Leander, the 40-year-old BSDF flagship, may be the first to be retired and decommissioned, replaced by a brand, new Invictus II with hybridised Havenite, Manticore and Andermani tech (which of course the Graysons will call a Honor Harrington III?). The rest may be more quickly replaced by existing Invictus and possibly some Sovereign of Space hulls.

Remember that the RHN had about 1000 SD(P)s after the second wave from Bolthole finished production. The end of UH tells us that the RoH could not hope to keep that many ships in service in a time of peace, even with a strong economy. So they'd demobilise them.

And ditto for Grayson. Unlike the other three powers of the Haven Sector, they're a single-system polity, albeit with a population the size of the MBS. Fielding a force of 150+ SD(P) in a time of peace is also unnecessary. And those Honor Harrington II ships can easily go to Beowulf as part of payment for Beowulf helping Grayson's reconstruction.
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Re: Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy
Post by kzt   » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:12 am

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SDF is just a term. It has no meaning other then what the state that maintains it decides it means. And Beowulf it means a full range of space capabilities.

Beowulf operates a large number of lighter warships under cover as civilians. And, at the other end, have multiple SD squadrons. The only thing that they might lack are logistics for long-range large-scale operations.

David has stated that Beowulf has a very good understanding of RMN tech. The reason that they don't use it in their warships isn't that they are unable, it's that they don't want to expose it. And they didn't see the need.

Logically this would mean that there is likely to have MAN penetration of the technology, as Beowulf had quite a few people somewhat sympathetic to the goals of what became the MA, but whatever....
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Re: Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:05 am

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I'm all for Beowulf creating a bonafide navy. And I suggested it would do just that - in the Beowulf the Karma Suitsya thread - when they shed their Solarian-made ball and chain.

It also makes way for interesting new strategies when war breaks out. Either one would be able to come to the aid of the other. The RMN would no longer need to worry about the door being kicked in on the other side of the junction. And Grayson wouldn't be needed as badly for support. Strengthening Beowulf's defenses naturally should help quite a bit too if revanchism overtakes the SL and the Juggernaut rolls again. A BSN might also be instrumental against the MAN in a distant future when they choose to leave the weight room.

And! Beowulf can certainly afford to pay for this on their own now that the SL isn't milking them anymore. But, before the SK starts sending ships their way, what about Gryphon and Sphinx? I would raise unholy hell if I were Gryphon or Sphinx if Beowulf was upgraded from a SDF before they were. Heck, strategically, Beowulf can be covered by the RMN faster than Gryphon or Sphinx. No?

Yes, I'm still crying for Argentina, er, Gryphon and Sphinx.

.
Last edited by cthia on Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:21 am

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Hi tlb,

Possible spoiler for those who haven't yet read TEIF. :o












From TEIF, it's confirmed Jessyk is wholly owned by Manpower and its huge, with lots of slave depots scattered throughout the SL and beyond, enough to keep the SLN busy enforcing its own laws, but Beowulf isn't going to wait or stand idly by.

Beowulf's wall was small as a member of the SL, constrained more by other member's attitudes and the need of setting a good example of not building a threateningly large fleet.

They only joined the GA in May 1922, and TIEF last only through the fall, so its going to be at least another 18 -24 months before Bolthole completes the first alliance Invictus type SDP.

Given the large if not huge populations of Haven (400-500B), Beowulf (9-12B), and now the SEM (SKM's 4B + SM's 2B + Lnyx's 2B + TQ ~30B = 38B, not counting the ex- Silesian Confed protectorates), manning shouldn't really be problem any more, and larger crews with more self programming mobile repair carbon based units would probably be quicker and cheaper to build; a probable source of contention and discussion among GA members for some time to come.
After the destruction of Beowulf, Gamma, Beta, and Alpha, I doubt recruiting is going to be a problem for the BSN or the GA Navy in general.

The early SDP's had just 40% of the SD's 6000 man crews, the Invictus only 11075, or about s 1/6 of the old SD's, so the BSDF SD crews could crew 200 Invictus type SDP's.

I suspect Beowulf trades almost everywhere, in part to insert agents looking for Manpower etc, with obvious exceptions like Mesa, working through apparent third parties for those.

Since the very reduced manning designs were begun during the first Haven war, before San Martin joined the SKM with the tech literate population, and the RMN had over 14 million spacers and marines in HAE [1908-1910 PD], I suspect the reduced crewing designs were intended for a far longer war than just the ten years and were adopted in the second in fear of another much longer war, Apollo not being a design factor, then being very experimental.

Given the drastically reduced pressure for small crews, I suspect crew increases for redundancy as well as additional marines. After all, given the 3-4 million marines mentioned in HAE, there wasn't really a need to reduce them so much and drop them completely from the Roland except to spotlight Abigail.

Best wishes,



tlb wrote:With the end of Manpower Inc, will there be a need for a large slave hunting force?

Depending on where Beowulf trades, there also may not be a need for a large anti-pirate force.

However, Beowulf may decide to expand its forces anyway as part of the GA. But being part of the GA means, I believe, that there will be a commonality of design classes across the Alliance. That need not mean that everyone has the same proportions of each class, but that there is no relearning as people cross-train between ships of the various members.

So I think the low manpower designs will be standard, but with an allowance for larger Marine contingents depending on task.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:54 am

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We saw the Beowulf Biological Survey in action, they being a front for at least an anti-slavery operations. So they are a variation on a Marine Special Operations Brigade. I don't recall any real discussion of the actual Biological Survey operations though if was going to be a good cover there must be a substantial number of people and probably ships assigned to doing they types of things the name implies.

We know that Beowulf had a group of trading partners (beyond it's daughter colonies) and at least one of the was maneuvering -by the time of the convention to declare them in revolt- to cripple them in the merchant and economic sphere of that group and take over as it's leader. That alone would seem to indicate that Beowulf would need to ramp up it's coverage as far as both diplomacy and commerce protection. On the other hand, with the shifting of alliances and the spinning off of various SL members into either independent single polities or small groups and associations, Beowulf is going to want to have a higher level of naval coverage for it's (and its no-GA friends) merchant shipping.

I agree that at least the FF ships are probably competent on the technical side to handle difficulty with non-GA ships within the SL.2 and that in the short term would certainly provide more coverage in Talbot and the Manticore portion of Silesia but not sure using captured FF ships based out of Beowulf would be a good idea politically. Too much of a rub-the SLN's-nose in it. It's not that the BSDF should have too much difficulty taking over FF ships that were close to what it already has in commission from the same building sources as the SLN, but the bad feelings from the SL.20, the SLN etc.

What is in production at Beowulf and what is hoped to be in production at both Manticore and Grayson is probably going to be what is the short term (5 to 10 years) for the related navies and spare parts and rebuilds for the existing fleets. That includes upgrades on existing ships and weapons productions once fabrication and building can shift from infrastructure and general manufacturing in the infrastructure rebuild.

On a practical note, much of Silesia and probably of Talbot is at a present level to be able to make a transition to operating below-the-wall former SLN ships, relatively quickly and get plugged into regional defense and commerce protection. That, at least for Talbot, could include having enough people to be able to come in as officers with at least ship handling skills with that tech. There certainly are going to be plenty (at the moment any way) of RMN people who could move to assignments in Talbot and Silesia to provide leadership and OJT in being in the RMN as RMN ships are being mothballed or recycled. And, no, not along the lines of creating a two tiered navy system.

Hope to hear more along these lines as more books come out.
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Re: Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:22 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:We saw the Beowulf Biological Survey in action, they being a front for at least an anti-slavery operations. So they are a variation on a Marine Special Operations Brigade. I don't recall any real discussion of the actual Biological Survey operations though if was going to be a good cover there must be a substantial number of people and probably ships assigned to doing they types of things the name implies.


I'm not clear yet whether the BSC is an open secret as an anti-slavering special ops team or whether it's a front. But either way, they don't have warships and aren't tasked with defending the system.

By the way, do note that the Sigma Draconis system has two inhabited planets. So the BSDF, as the name says was a system defence force, not a planetary one. There's no reason for Gryphon or Sphinx to have their own defence forces. They have the premier navy in the Galaxy and have been part of it for 5 T-centuries.

We know that Beowulf had a group of trading partners (beyond it's daughter colonies) and at least one of the was maneuvering -by the time of the convention to declare them in revolt- to cripple them in the merchant and economic sphere of that group and take over as it's leader. That alone would seem to indicate that Beowulf would need to ramp up it's coverage as far as both diplomacy and commerce protection. On the other hand, with the shifting of alliances and the spinning off of various SL members into either independent single polities or small groups and associations, Beowulf is going to want to have a higher level of naval coverage for it's (and its no-GA friends) merchant shipping.


Indeed. It's unclear whether Hypatia joined the Republic of Beowulf forming a multi-system polity, as UH hinted. Moreover, the final few chapters of ART do make it sound like more (Core) systems within 35 light-years of Beowulf were planning on having their own plebiscites in short order. Whether they strike out on their own or join Beowulf is also to be determined, though my guess is that the bigger ones will simply become independent. The closest of those, described in ART as the one Beowulf had the most commerce and intermarriage with, short of Manticore, will probably closely align with the GA. The others may not and may be come neutrals. I didn't get the feeling they'd become antagonists to Beowulf: if those get independence from the SL, that means their populations liked what Beowulf started.

No, Beowulf's biggest worry is the remnant of the SL, which they're pretty much in the middle of. Right now, and knowing what we know from TEiF, that doesn't look like a near-term problem. The old BSDF couldn't hold the massed SLN, even if they were superior 1:1. With Mycroft and a couple of modern battle squadrons, they can, though. So that's what's going to drive them.

I agree that at least the FF ships are probably competent on the technical side to handle difficulty with non-GA ships within the SL.2 and that in the short term would certainly provide more coverage in Talbot and the Manticore portion of Silesia but not sure using captured FF ships based out of Beowulf would be a good idea politically. Too much of a rub-the SLN's-nose in it. It's not that the BSDF should have too much difficulty taking over FF ships that were close to what it already has in commission from the same building sources as the SLN, but the bad feelings from the SL.20, the SLN etc.


I don't think there's a need to use captured SL ships at all. Shipbuilding does not seem to be a problem for the GA. Bolthole is described in UH as having a production rate matching the Manticore yards at their peak, with quality being added by fitting Beowulf-produced components, including Keyholes.

The best use those captured ships could hope for is to be sold to minor polities in the Verge that have just got liberated, like in the Madras Sector. The Kingdom of Meyers may want them at just above scrap metal price, like when High Ridge sold the older SDs from the RMN to Grayson and the rest of the Manticore Alliance. That is, after all, what Torch is doing. We can probably assume that SLN FF and PN hardware was more or less equal.

If not the best, those ships can only be broken up for scrap metal to feed the smelters.

What is in production at Beowulf and what is hoped to be in production at both Manticore and Grayson is probably going to be what is the short term (5 to 10 years) for the related navies and spare parts and rebuilds for the existing fleets. That includes upgrades on existing ships and weapons productions once fabrication and building can shift from infrastructure and general manufacturing in the infrastructure rebuild.


The fleet rebuilds will be done before the new Manticore and Grayson yards are finished. In fact, the GA didn't seem to be short of ships even before the end of the war. They're talking about decommissioning ships and rotating them in and out of reserve.

Upgrades, yes. There's going to be a bevy of new hybridised Havenite-Manticore technology (Foraker-Hemphill technology, to be precise). And most of this is only possible because of the GA, so I don't see either the Andermani or Beowulf being shafted.

In fact, the biggest component of rebuild and upgrade is actually Haven. Of the GA components, they had the largest fleet with the lowest tech base. The BSDF had lower technology on their ships, but the system's tech base was much better. And the BSDF is more than 20x smaller than the RHN. However, the Havenite yards are ALL still there and so are the Andermani ones.

So no, I don't see the BSDF or should we say the Republic of Beowulf Navy getting shafted. If they get every tenth or fifteenth ship to come out of the yards (whether new or refit), they'll reach the necessary force levels before Haven.

On a practical note, much of Silesia and probably of Talbot is at a present level to be able to make a transition to operating below-the-wall former SLN ships, relatively quickly and get plugged into regional defense and commerce protection. That, at least for Talbot, could include having enough people to be able to come in as officers with at least ship handling skills with that tech. There certainly are going to be plenty (at the moment any way) of RMN people who could move to assignments in Talbot and Silesia to provide leadership and OJT in being in the RMN as RMN ships are being mothballed or recycled. And, no, not along the lines of creating a two tiered navy system.

Hope to hear more along these lines as more books come out.


They can. They just won't. At a minimum they'd get demobilised RHN ships below the wall, which if not technologically superior to the SLN, would at least have the advantage of coming from suppliers where you can easily get spare parts from.

And as you're saying, no two-tiered navy system. The navy of the Star Empire of Manticore is the Royal Manticore Navy. They will operate RMN hardware.
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