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She shot him with her finger

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Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:04 pm

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Daryl wrote:I remember the $6 Million Man TV series.
Always amused that he could lift a car using his bionic arm, which was attached to his flesh and blood shoulder.
I'm heading towards being a cyborg.
A case of leukaemia that had a autoimmune component (What not scared by getting a nasty cancer? I'll throw in an AIDS equivalent set of symptoms.), led to my getting - a four way pacemaker (heart nerves eaten by the T cells), a Port a Cath (internal device permanently linked to my jugular to enable mass chemo), and now a titanium knee from my cartilage being eaten also.
As Covid is conquered and I resume travel, I expect to spend a lot of airport time being security vetted.

Wow. My heart goes out to you. I sincerely hope you are not suffering any chronic pain.

Ditto about the Bionic Man! I saw him pick up stuff that should have crushed his spine.

I must say that the many varied possibilities of the nanites should prove invaluable on a foreign planet like Australia. I've teased you and Annachie before. The planet down under has the biggest this. The baddest that. And the most venomous of everything. I would imagine nanites could save many a life on an alien planet like Australia, where a bite victim has little time before antivenom must be administered. Hardware can also warn of the proximity of foreign creatures by infrared or other sensors. You'd no longer step on or fall prey to a spider or other dangerous critters simply because you can't see them. So I agree there may be a market for certain tech. A niche market, like the military. Ground troops trekking through jungles would certainly opt for certain tech. Especially if it is reversible.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by cthia   » Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:27 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:NOT "always pursue." It should never become the default. Man should keep the lion's share of himself on the human side of the fence, as the norm.


Why? There may be philosophical or religious reasons for this and I don't want to dismiss them. In fact, they may very well be the reason why this isn't allowed or done in the first place. But is there a biological reason?

I commend and thank you for at least acknowledging the religious angle, in conjunction with philosophy the two are inseparable. But let's bracket that.

Is there a biological reason? Of course there is. The human condition is biological. But even if we cannot place a hand directly on a biological reason, (and we can) simply not knowing for sure should suggest allowing for the possibility. We are not Gods; thinking that they are is what led to the Final Wars.

But let's bracket that as well and put our hand on the biological reason. When Honor holds her kids, she specifically uses her flesh-and-blood hand. There is a connection felt by both mother and child. That connection has far reaching implications that one should never ever take for granted, or should ever want it to be engineered out of, and become lost to, humanity.

Let's not even consider the immeasurable and unfathomable developmental loss of a baby who breastfeeds. We discuss that topic seriously today. I was a breastfed baby. Look how well adjusted I am. Let's also acknowledge the inevitable loss of something very intangible when tubing a child as opposed to what Alison quite admirably decides to do the old-fashioned way. And with profound reasons. One wouldn't want to replace the warmth of a human touch with the coldness of metal or material. What effect would that have on a sociable creature in the long run?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Besides, replacing limbs with stronger artificial limbs may also require strengthening surrounding muscle and more. Again, man and woman are very vain creatures, and we like to retain as much of our original, basic "look and feel" as possible. At any rate, my point is that the resistance would come from the average man in the street. I imagine most people are horrified of the prospect of artificial limbs if they don't regenerate. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should. I think the proposition of "prosthetics" will always carry a stigma. Humanity likes to keep the body "stock" if it were an automobile. :D


"We like to retain as much of our original? Sorry, I don't think that's exactly true, not for the entirety of the population. Plastic surgery exists today, which adds to us. I'd even venture the reason we don't replace more is that we currently don't have the technology.

But the HV does.

There will always be divergent views and skewed datum found in the strata, but that is besides the point, totally unfair, and unrepresentative of the total truth. Yes, cosmetic surgery exists today. But that is nowhere near what we are discussing. That isn't a total departure from what is already there. Cosmetic surgery is usually sought to "augment" vain imperfections that are either present from birth or caused by some unfortunate accident. And yes, it "adds" to us. Which is a form of augmentation instead of prosthetics, which are two totally different things and would be treated as such as I stated upstream. Again, there is nothing inhuman contained in augmentations.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:You may be right that people in the HV are indeed horrified of replacing limbs with anything non-biologic and not generated from their own DNA. There may still be a lot of resentment from way back in the Final War, when those implanted and augmented cyborgs were created and unleashed.

As for cars... well, you do know there's a very large after-market mod community, don't you?

Agreed on being horrified. But I think you are wrong about, and belittling, the cause. At the crux of it, it has nothing to do with the Final Wars, and all to do with an attachment to what the average person considers is intrinsic in humanity.

Yes, there is a very large aftermarket mod community. I once had a BMW tuned by Dinan. Kick-Ass! But, in support of the discussion, are you aware that aftermarket mods oftentimes, if not usually, naturally decrease the resale value of the vehicle? Especially unofficial aftermarkets. And even with official tuners one is usually left with having to find a niche buyer.

cthia wrote:Agreed. And interesting. But those capabilities would be, for all intents and purposes, noninvasive. Humanity likes that word.

Albeit, these types of abilities would have to be a copper-plated Ransom to law enforcement. I can see some planets outlawing the ability if it is developed.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:But why limit to non-invasive? Why not allow an extra pair of arms? I could even imagine this becoming popular in Sphinx, where the native fauna is six-limbed.

Women have a hard time with perverts who already have six arms and six hands. LOL

Surely you are not suggesting the Cats would accept additional arms? It takes them forever to make decisions, for one. And would you want them to have to learn to count all over again?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Or vice versa. It would have been a significant help if Honor could have shut down her aggressive metabolism when she was captured and held "for Ransom."


Quite true. So if the Meyerdahl Mods that she had inherited had been technological in nature, allowing comfortable living on Sphinx, they could easily be turned off when not on Sphinx.

There would also be no Great Cookie Heist to get Travis Long busted and thus forming a friendship with Chomps.

Agreed. And perhaps that would make it readily available to more people. But being genetic in nature, I would bet on it being more stable, and needing no maintenance. But to be fair, perhaps a technological application would eliminate certain side-effects like Honor's temper.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Brilliant use of the tech! But it borders the unethical by crossing the bridge into mind control. In the hands of the unscrupulous it would be used to swindle, pilfer or even murder. Albeit, a mother would use it to control her kids. "Go to sleep you brats!"


Oh, yeah. Many a parent would like to command their newborns to sleep when it's time to sleep and to be awake when it's time to be awake. Though most transhumanist sci-fi I've read says that implants and nanite technology is only given to young adults after puberty. Sometimes, the reason given is biological development; sometimes, it's ethical as the people need to reach age of informed consent to make their choices.

In one of them (Peter F Hamilton's Commonwealth Saga series; specifically, in the Void Trilogy), one of the characters reminisces about using his newly-installed ability to enlarge a certain body part to impress a girl, with unexpected side-effects. Earlier in the series, Justine Burnelli remembers how she's been slowly adding to her height over R&R periods, and that in one of them she decided to have bigger breasts, but reverted that in her next Rejuv because it wasn't worth all the bad pickup lines she was getting.

Incidentally, the Commonwealth Saga is the best depiction of transhumanism I've ever read. If you haven't, I highly recommend; it may change your view of the topic and thus this thread. In the original Saga, it's very reachable from where our technology is today and even informative on what we could be as a species. By the Void Trilogy, like the Gordianverse, it's at "indistinguishable from magic" Clarketech level, but still made me want to be that way.


cthia wrote:It could be a boon to the medical professional too, if you could be ordered not to feel pain and/or to hold very still.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:We have anaesthetics today. Injecting someone with a serum or injecting someone with nanites that shut down peripheral nerve perception and major limb control is not very different from one another.

The advantage would be if the nanites are already in your body and all you have to do is grant the doctor access to your internal network. (incidentally, "internal network" is the name that Glynn Stewart gives the same topic in his Peacekeepers of Sol series) Just click Yes/No/Cancel.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:The operative phrase being "if one wants it." Again, I think the "humanity" found in the general market would offer the resistance to certain aspects.


I'm curious as to why you think they would.

And I'm also curious if your opinion should change after reading the two Gordianverse novels and the Commonwealth Saga, if you haven't.

See upstream. Mostly it has to do with the innate and intimate relationship man has with his humanity.

But you may have a point that a lot of views would be different in thousands of years, especially shaped by the extremes of galactic space. But personally, I don't think for one minute the core ideals of humanity will ever change. The core of humanity is what makes us human.

How far should man go? Will complete replacement of all biological parts "from toe to neck" still leave us human? And by human, it includes the intangibles. And of course the brain will not be left alone. So where is our humanity? My overarching theme is that the average man in the street will value his humanity above all else. As the indisputable norm.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Hands off buddy! Mine! Mine! Mine! I hope all of the doting and slobbering affections I bestowed upon her in the Eridani Edict Violation of the Most Dismissive Kind thread didn't somehow affect the author and made him jealous.


Okay, okay, you can have Aldona, if I get Ruth!

Damn! You slid in under the radar! Ok, fair enough. But Ruth comes with a lot of royal baggage and armsmen.

P.S. Between you and me, Aldona isn't the type of girl you take home to meet the family. They will recognize something malicious and malignant about her right away. Megan Petersen is going home to meet the family!

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Anyway, we now know roughly where you are in the book. I'm sure we'll know when you get to some of the juicier bits towards the end, because you will be posting. Can't wait.

I'm ready to post now! As soon as the game warden gives the signal and the go-ahead.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:31 pm

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cthia wrote:But let's bracket that as well and put our hand on the biological reason. When Honor holds her kids, she specifically uses her flesh-and-blood hand. There is a connection felt by both mother and child. That connection has far reaching implications that one should never ever take for granted, or should ever want it to be engineered out of, and become lost to, humanity.


Why can't she use her prosthetic arm? If she has enough dexterity and has enough feedback there, she probably can't tell the difference. And no one touching her arm with their own bare hands could tell the difference either: it's not like it's going to be cold and hard. In fact, it may have superior sensation, allowing her to easily tell if one of her kids is running a fever.

Let's not even consider the immeasurable and unfathomable developmental loss of a baby who breastfeeds. We discuss that topic seriously today. I was a breastfed baby. Look how well adjusted I am. Let's also acknowledge the inevitable loss of something very intangible when tubing a child as opposed to what Alison quite admirably decides to do the old-fashioned way. And with profound reasons. One wouldn't want to replace the warmth of a human touch with the coldness of metal or material. What effect would that have on a sociable creature in the long run?


How will the kid know the difference?

Breastfeeding has two important differences compared to bottle-feeding, today at least: first, it's the closeness of the mother, the cradling that the process provides the child, the feeling of security, etc.. Second, it's the nutritional content of the milk. This second is pretty much solvable technologically: there's no reason why we can't make milk that is indistinguishable from what a mother would feed. That leaves the first, so I ask: at what point does a prosthetic change to the mother affect the baby?

Agreed on being horrified. But I think you are wrong about, and belittling, the cause. At the crux of it, it has nothing to do with the Final Wars, and all to do with an attachment to what the average person considers is intrinsic in humanity.


I'm not trying to belittle it. I am trying to separate it from the actual biological and technological aspects. I fully agree that there is likely some component that is deeply rooted belief in what one may consider what humanity is, a line (or grey area) that shall not be crossed.

But that can be changed with time. If someone (Beowulf of Mesa) had tried to uplift through technological means and used marketing, they may have succeeded in pushing that boundary. I've given examples of other sci-fi universes where that has happened.

So if it can be changed, is there a biological limit? Or is it all depending on what people will accept?

See upstream. Mostly it has to do with the innate and intimate relationship man has with his humanity.

But you may have a point that a lot of views would be different in thousands of years, especially shaped by the extremes of galactic space. But personally, I don't think for one minute the core ideals of humanity will ever change. The core of humanity is what makes us human.


So if we uplifted dolphins and chimps (like in David Brin's Uplift Saga) and granted them full citizenship, would there still be a point in having a distinction between human and non-human, aside from reproductive questions? It could border on discrimination to call something inhuman. That reminds me of a scene in Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country when someone mentions "inalienable human rights" to the Klingons (aliens).

The Zeroth Law of Robotics is often said to be to protect Humanity at all costs, but then we're also told of the Minus-One Law which would be to protect life or sentience itself.

My point is: right now, humanity is the only sentient species we know of. Once we know of more, will that core belief in humanity change?

How far should man go? Will complete replacement of all biological parts "from toe to neck" still leave us human? And by human, it includes the intangibles. And of course the brain will not be left alone. So where is our humanity? My overarching theme is that the average man in the street will value his humanity above all else. As the indisputable norm.


Well, I am disputing it.

Why can't one replace all limbs and internal organs?

Why must one keep the brain and not have it replaced with a synthetic equivalent that has all the same capabilities?

Of course that can be more than what people will accept at a given point in time. Surely it is so today.

P.S. Between you and me, Aldona isn't the type of girl you take home to meet the family. They will recognize something malicious and malignant about her right away. Megan Petersen is going home to meet the family!


Well, going back to your "Mine!" I'm pretty sure we're all hers, actually, if she wanted. At least the vast majority of men would do anything she asked...
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Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by cthia   » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:24 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Why must one keep the brain and not have it replaced with a synthetic equivalent that has all the same capabilities?

Like, WOE! Now you are freaking me way the hell out. Although I admit that it could simply be me and my own shortcomings. Hey, I still get queasy at the sight of my own blood. But accepting, allowing, and living with my brain being changed into a computer would really freak me out. As I imagine it would do to the average person even in the HV. I can't imagine waking up after such a procedure. Afraid to bump into anything that would really knock a screw loose. That would have to be the source of a completely new phobia in the HV. The fear of embedded technology. Embedophobia? Heck, mini EMPs can drop the population of an entire city. Helmets optional?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by tlb   » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:00 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Why must one keep the brain and not have it replaced with a synthetic equivalent that has all the same capabilities?

cthia wrote:Like, WOE! Now you are freaking me way the hell out. Although I admit that it could simply be me and my own shortcomings. Hey, I still get queasy at the sight of my own blood. But accepting, allowing, and living with my brain being changed into a computer would really freak me out. As I imagine it would do to the average person even in the HV. I can't imagine waking up after such a procedure. Afraid to bump into anything that would really knock a screw loose. That would have to be the source of a completely new phobia in the HV. The fear of embedded technology. Embedophobia? Heck, mini EMPs can drop the population of an entire city. Helmets optional?

Not sure how that would work: how can you be sure that all the memories and favored brain paths are included that make you the person you are? What if you ended up with a similaricum that could only impersonate the person you were, but not change or grow? Anyway, it is at best a clone of you under the Beowulf Code and not the real you (the you that died, when the organic brain was destroyed). If an artificial brain could be built that was at least as capable as the human brain, would it be used this way or to make robots?

When I was young, I was freaked about the movie "The Thing from Another World", based on the short story "Who Goes There?" by John W. Campbell Jr (apparently inspired by his mother having an evil identical twin). I worried what if this took me and my memories over and made me do all sorts of bad things. I finally resolved the dilemma by realizing that the thing masquerading as me was just a creature that had my looks and memories, but was not me; since I would have been eaten and was dead.
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Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:59 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Why must one keep the brain and not have it replaced with a synthetic equivalent that has all the same capabilities?

cthia wrote:Like, WOE! Now you are freaking me way the hell out. Although I admit that it could simply be me and my own shortcomings. Hey, I still get queasy at the sight of my own blood. But accepting, allowing, and living with my brain being changed into a computer would really freak me out. As I imagine it would do to the average person even in the HV. I can't imagine waking up after such a procedure. Afraid to bump into anything that would really knock a screw loose. That would have to be the source of a completely new phobia in the HV. The fear of embedded technology. Embedophobia? Heck, mini EMPs can drop the population of an entire city. Helmets optional?

Not sure how that would work: how can you be sure that all the memories and favored brain paths are included that make you the person you are? What if you ended up with a similaricum that could only impersonate the person you were, but not change or grow? Anyway, it is at best a clone of you under the Beowulf Code and not the real you (the you that died, when the organic brain was destroyed). If an artificial brain could be built that was at least as capable as the human brain, would it be used this way or to make robots?

When I was young, I was freaked about the movie "The Thing from Another World", based on the short story "Who Goes There?" by John W. Campbell Jr (apparently inspired by his mother having an evil identical twin). I worried what if this took me and my memories over and made me do all sorts of bad things. I finally resolved the dilemma by realizing that the thing masquerading as me was just a creature that had my looks and memories, but was not me; since I would have been eaten and was dead.

Good question about how to keep the memories intact. I suppose the area that will be kept untouched is the amygdala. Transforming it into what would be called the Abdullah oblongdata.

I wonder what kind of problems can manifest itself. Schizophrenic bouts with a ghost image of the past mind? Plus, the body is said to be a resilient thing able to evolve. What would these interfaces mean for evolution down the road? It makes me think of the theories that aliens are humans who once became so advanced that they left the Earth, and evolved into the images of how we depict aliens appear. Or how we know for a fact how aliens appear because of Area 51. But I digress.

wiki wrote:amygdala, region of the brain primarily associated with emotional processes. The name amygdala is derived from the Greek word amygdale, meaning “almond,” owing to the structure's almondlike shape. ... The amygdala is part of the limbic system, a neural network that mediates many aspects of emotion and memory.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by tlb   » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:01 pm

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cthia wrote:Transforming it into what would be called the Abdullah oblongdata.

Is "Abdullah oblongdata" a joke that I do not get? I do see the "data" pun, but why "Abdullah" instead of "medulla" (as in medulla oblongata)?

Unless it is possible to move the consciousness (wherever that resides), then whatever results will be a thing that might have your memories; but it will not be you. The same as the organic copies of people made by the creature, that seemed to be the real person; but were not, because the person was dead. Your consciousness will die with your organic brain, so why worry about schizophrenia?

Even if consciousness could be copied, the one that is you is that one which is left behind (not the one in the cybernetic replacement, however that one will think he is you; so he won't care).

Generally theories should have some data to support them, otherwise they are just speculations or harebrained ideas.
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Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:02 am

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Transforming it into what would be called the Abdullah oblongdata.

Is "Abdullah oblongdata" a joke that I do not get? I do see the "data" pun, but why "Abdullah" instead of "medulla" (as in medulla oblongata)?

Unless it is possible to move the consciousness (wherever that resides), then whatever results will be a thing that might have your memories; but it will not be you. The same as the organic copies of people made by the creature, that seemed to be the real person; but were not, because the person was dead. Your consciousness will die with your organic brain, so why worry about schizophrenia?

Even if consciousness could be copied, the one that is you is that one which is left behind (not the one in the cybernetic replacement, however that one will think he is you; so he won't care).

Generally theories should have some data to support them, otherwise they are just speculations or harebrained ideas.

A very singed joke. And lots of inuendo.

Wiki wrote:Muslim: from the Arabic personal name ? Abdullah 'servant of Allah'. This was the name of the father of the Prophet Muhammad, who died before Muhammad was born.


You wouldn't be a servant of God any longer. You would be a servant of the god Leonard Detweiler. Except he is the father of the new prophets who have gone awry.

Recall that the sign of the beast is 666 which many people say will identify those who take the sign of the beast in the form of a computer chip embedded in their hand. To accept the new financial system without currency.

Computer chip = Apple Computer = (Don't bite) the apple.

NPP! No pitchforks please! I am just the messenger.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by Daryl   » Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:28 am

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There have been some good takes on this by some good authors. One has a PICA which is a complete artificial human, and the opinion of if they are human is well thrashed out, to the point of discussing souls. Can't quite remember the author's name, will hold it safe?
Another of that author's series has inter universe travel to places where people are routinely mind stripped and put into a computerised universe.
One of the Eric Flint spinoffs has a cruise ship sent back to ancient Greece times, and the point of ethics changing over time is considered. No Christian turn the other cheek, or guilt over what we would consider to be bad practice there.
There have been some BC era books with rampant promiscuity, as the Christian puritanism wasn't around.
For me, as a sort of atheist/agnostic, who is in his seventies having survived some big health scares; if in time, if I felt my mental capabilities diminishing, if I was facing yet another big health deal, and if transference to a PICA was practical, I would do it.
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Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by tlb   » Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:44 am

tlb
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cthia wrote:Transforming it into what would be called the Abdullah oblongdata.

tlb wrote:Is "Abdullah oblongdata" a joke that I do not get? I do see the "data" pun, but why "Abdullah" instead of "medulla" (as in medulla oblongata)?

Unless it is possible to move the consciousness (wherever that resides), then whatever results will be a thing that might have your memories; but it will not be you. The same as the organic copies of people made by the creature, that seemed to be the real person; but were not, because the person was dead. Your consciousness will die with your organic brain, so why worry about schizophrenia?

Even if consciousness could be copied, the one that is you is that one which is left behind (not the one in the cybernetic replacement, however that one will think he is you; so he won't care).

Generally theories should have some data to support them, otherwise they are just speculations or harebrained ideas.

cthia wrote:A very singed joke. And lots of inuendo.

Wiki wrote:Muslim: from the Arabic personal name ? Abdullah 'servant of Allah'. This was the name of the father of the Prophet Muhammad, who died before Muhammad was born.


You wouldn't be a servant of God any longer. You would be a servant of the god Leonard Detweiler. Except he is the father of the new prophets who have gone awry.

Recall that the sign of the beast is 666 which many people say will identify those who take the sign of the beast in the form of a computer chip embedded in their hand. To accept the new financial system without currency.

Computer chip = Apple Computer = (Don't bite) the apple.

NPP! No pitchforks please! I am just the messenger.

If the consciousness is copied, then the result should be as much a servant of God as the original ever was. I am not sure why you would think that the result would necessarily be a servant of Leonard Detweiler? ThinksMarkedly never said that would be pushed by the Malign. I doubt that they would be interested in making copies of people in general (but there might be interest in specific instances).

As for the chip in the hand, it is already here in the form of a cell phone in the hand (not specifically one embedded in the palm). But saying that is "the mark of the beast" is just another example of people being stupid. There is nothing particularly Godly about our current financial system, so there is no reason to suppose that a change to a new one will be a fall from Grace.
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