Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests

She shot him with her finger

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
She shot him with her finger
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:14 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2468
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

Are the MAlign and Beowulf missing an incredible opportunity for human directed evolution? Namely, that of artificial means.

I'm not suggesting cyBORGs. That must have definitely happened during the Final War and, like genetic manipulation, must have eventually been proscribed.

But we have a lot of prosthetics in use that, as seen in Honor herself, can augment one's capability. She has better eye functionality and a stronger arm, not to mention the (literally!) handy built-in weapon. We don't know exactly how she controls the weapon (I think there are some hints at a specific sequence of actions, wasn't there?), but the point is that there is a neural interface. Moreover, because she has a prosthetic eye, she could receive information directly in her head. All she needs is a 5G chip :)

Add to that the MAlign nanites. They do definitely have a neural interface, as we've seen they can be activated by actions or circumstances, or intentionally by the host. If they are pervasive enough to do what they do, they can also be used to combat health issues, including ageing, possibly even reversing it. It doesn't take a quantum leap to have them also respond to the brain so one can improve their mental abilities with faster processing and larger storage.

Another important fact is that they could be selling this and making lots of money. It would mean unfortunately that the rich get it first, but as we've seen with prolong, governments could sponsor a basic package for their citizens, and let the rich people buy the upgrade to change hair colour with a thought.

What does the Beowulf Code of Ethics say about this?
Top
Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by tlb   » Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:30 pm

tlb
Admiral

Posts: 2236
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Another important fact is that they could be selling this and making lots of money. It would mean unfortunately that the rich get it first, but as we've seen with prolong, governments could sponsor a basic package for their citizens, and let the rich people buy the upgrade to change hair colour with a thought.

What does the Beowulf Code of Ethics say about this?

Isn't there some mention of a planet where prosthetic replacement is fashionable and all the rage? To the point of almost having cyborgs?

From Ashes of Victory, chapter 17:
But there were people who'd made the opposite choice. Indeed, in some of humanity's far-flung cultures, like Sharpton, where the cyborg was a sort of cultural icon, it was as routine for an individual to replace limbs and eyes with artificial improvements as it was for someone on Manticore to have her teeth cleaned and straightened. Or her ears pierced, for that matter. Personally, Honor couldn't imagine doing such a thing. In fact, the very thought made her uncomfortable—probably because she'd spent so much of her life in space. After so many years in an artificial exterior environment, she felt no temptation whatsoever to turn her own body into an artificial interior environment, whatever advantages over mere flesh and blood it might have brought with it.
Although the Star Kingdom didn't practice that sort of casual enhancement, it wasn't out of any horror of "cyborgian monstrosities." Honor had met a few people, mostly from places in the Solarian League, whose enhancement had been so obvious and extreme as to make her feel actively ill at ease, but those were exceptions. Most people who had themselves enhanced went to some lengths to make the enhancements appear as much like natural (albeit as perfectly developed natural) limbs, as possible, and the same held true for the minority of people who couldn't regenerate.
Top
Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:16 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13790
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Interesting thread!

I wouldn't say that Beowulf missed it. I am sure that Beowulf is aware of the possibilities. In fact, I always assumed that it was Beowulf's research that enabled Alfred to artificially augment Honor.

I am not so sure 'missing' it should/would apply to the MA - as far as prosthetics, or where the need of prosthetics is concerned anyway. I would hazard a guess that the MA would see the need for any such devices as a failure of their research. I always assumed the MA has guaranteed the ability to regenerate in their 'high-end' products.

But, the notion of increased mental functions is more along their speed. In fact, I think total control of an individual is close to a MAlign possibility by artificial implanted means. Enough to at least create 'the living dead'. These higher brain functions can completely eliminate pain.

The MA has already mastered higher mental abilities like total memory recall in the Detweilers. Which, btw, validates a notion of mine floating about somewhere in space of natural or dormant abilities accessed by genetic manipulation. Like telepathy. Or photographic/eidetic memory which would be a welcome breakthrough in creating super spooks. Imagine if Cachat or Zilwicki had total memory recall.

As far as longevity of life far beyond the present centuries, that is already hinted at as a possibility or goal but not via reversing ageing but increasing the effects of prolong.

The MA can increase the control of brain functions to fool interrogators and lie detectors. Even of the furry kind by tamping off emotions.

As far as this being against the Beowulf Code of ethics, I wouldn't think it is, per se. What would ruffle Beowulf's feathers is the inhumane road it takes to get there.

Unilinks and the like with high capacity offline storage can be implanted in the brain and updated as needed or required depending on the application, need or interest. Schematics can be uploaded to ground troops' onboard storage. One downside of this tech is if you are captured your brain will be accessed. Or rather, these peripheral chips. And, with 5G, people like Zilwicki and Ruth will hack your systems without you knowing it.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:57 am

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2468
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

cthia wrote:I am not so sure 'missing' it should/would apply to the MA - as far as prosthetics, or where the need of prosthetics is concerned anyway. I would hazard a guess that the MA would see the need for any such devices as a failure of their research. I always assumed the MA has guaranteed the ability to regenerate in their 'high-end' products.


Sure, and I agree with you: they'd consider it a failure if they had needed prosthetics. My argument is that they shouldn't see it that way. They could see artificial augmentation as complementary to the genetic one. Coupling their genetic resistance to illness and mental increase with artificial means to clear their bodies of toxins and pathogens, they could be effectively immortal. That's something that ought to appeal to them.

But, the notion of increased mental functions is more along their speed. In fact, I think total control of an individual is close to a MAlign possibility by artificial implanted means. Enough to at least create 'the living dead'. These higher brain functions can completely eliminate pain.


Sorry, are you talking about controlling oneself or controlling others? I would expect both to be true, but the benefits of controlling all aspects of oneself might not be readily apparent. Whereas controlling the others and the masses must definitely be in their plans... so how?

The MA has already mastered higher mental abilities like total memory recall in the Detweilers. Which, btw, validates a notion of mine floating about somewhere in space of natural or dormant abilities accessed by genetic manipulation. Like telepathy. Or photographic/eidetic memory which would be a welcome breakthrough in creating super spooks. Imagine if Cachat or Zilwicki had total memory recall.

As far as longevity of life far beyond the present centuries, that is already hinted at as a possibility or goal but not via reversing ageing but increasing the effects of prolong.

The MA can increase the control of brain functions to fool interrogators and lie detectors. Even of the furry kind by tamping off emotions.


There's no evidence that fooling treecats is possible. There's one case in TEiF that raises eyebrows and we'll need to discuss, but it's not outright fooling the treecats.

We do know that the Detweilers and the other Alpha lines have long lifespans even without prolong. They also have more intelligence, higher stamina, etc. Their bodies are also aesthetically pleasing to others, like Anisimovna (btw, where's she nowadays?), unless they don't want that, like Bardasano.

But prolong can be seen as an artificial enhancement too. So why not other technological means? Why draw the line at genetics and medication, instead of technology?

As far as this being against the Beowulf Code of ethics, I wouldn't think it is, per se. What would ruffle Beowulf's feathers is the inhumane road it takes to get there.

Unilinks and the like with high capacity offline storage can be implanted in the brain and updated as needed or required depending on the application, need or interest. Schematics can be uploaded to ground troops' onboard storage. One downside of this tech is if you are captured your brain will be accessed. Or rather, these peripheral chips. And, with 5G, people like Zilwicki and Ruth will hack your systems without you knowing it.


Well, no doubt on the inhumane road, which is probably what happened during the Final War: implanted supersoldiers who had no choice and also had no option to remove later (assuming they and their government survived). But so long as it's opt-in, why not? Do note how implants aren't inheritable, so children aren't affected until they reach a certain age.

(Unless Raoul was born with a blaster in his finger)

I also feel Beowulf would have a problem with taking it too far, but how far is too far? Is it too far to have nanites that allow you to survive in high radiation or toxicity environments? Or low atmospheric pressure? How about strengthening muscles and the skeleton so one can survive on 2G planets? Maybe a counter-intuitive solution but to lower the metabolism so one can survive colder climates?

Note how all of the above has been done in the HV with genetic manipulation, sometimes with side-effects and do affecting children.

If that's ok, can one choose to have stronger muscles for vanity reasons? Can they choose to be taller than a basketball player? Can they choose to have an extra set of arms?

Once Alfred cracks the secret of treecat telempathy, can you add a transceiver to yourself?

Yes, there's a danger that your technological implants can be hacked without your knowing. But if MAlign agents can drop dead on cue, so long as you know you're being captured, it should be just as easy to wipe the storage and leave the agent alive, but remembering nothing secret. The nefarious converse of this is that if you quit a job, the company may insist on wiping their "proprietary knowledge" off your implant too...
Top
Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:25 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13790
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I am not so sure 'missing' it should/would apply to the MA - as far as prosthetics, or where the need of prosthetics is concerned anyway. I would hazard a guess that the MA would see the need for any such devices as a failure of their research. I always assumed the MA has guaranteed the ability to regenerate in their 'high-end' products.


Sure, and I agree with you: they'd consider it a failure if they had needed prosthetics. My argument is that they shouldn't see it that way. They could see artificial augmentation as complementary to the genetic one. Coupling their genetic resistance to illness and mental increase with artificial means to clear their bodies of toxins and pathogens, they could be effectively immortal. That's something that ought to appeal to them.


I think we differ on terminology, which could be my own shortcoming. I accept 'prosthetic' as a complete replacement of an existing body part. And 'augmentation' as an addition of sorts. Like breast augmentation. So with that prerequisite, I can understand if the MA would shun prosthetics, because they want their genetics to become commonplace and accepted. Eventually they would want to make money on it, and they wouldn't want to disillusion a certain segment of the market. The HV has its fair share of vanity. And again, what ability can be achieved with a prosthetic that can't be genetically engineered into an already existing body part. Now, I think augmentation could be viewed differently, and, perhaps it would be in a future where the MA's genetic breakthroughs have been accepted. But that is an MA bridge that would be crossed tomorrow. They have to slowly lead their market to Shangri-la. But you're right overall, there seems to be a lot of room for the expansion of MA services. But they've got to crawl before they can walk or fly. I posited one aspect of their tech in totally eliminating transit sickness.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:But, the notion of increased mental functions is more along their speed. In fact, I think total control of an individual is close to a MAlign possibility by artificial implanted means. Enough to at least create 'the living dead'. These higher brain functions can completely eliminate pain.


Sorry, are you talking about controlling oneself or controlling others? I would expect both to be true, but the benefits of controlling all aspects of oneself might not be readily apparent. Whereas controlling the others and the masses must definitely be in their plans... so how?

I hesitate to differentiate between the two. What is the difference? Except for the application of ethics when forcing the tech upon someone. At any rate, I was referring to the next evolution of compulsion. Presently, only simple commands and instructions can be embedded into the action. I am positing that the future of that particular technology will be much different and will hardly resemble what happens to a victim now.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:The MA has already mastered higher mental abilities like total memory recall in the Detweilers. Which, btw, validates a notion of mine floating about somewhere in space of natural or dormant abilities accessed by genetic manipulation. Like telepathy. Or photographic/eidetic memory which would be a welcome breakthrough in creating super spooks. Imagine if Cachat or Zilwicki had total memory recall.

As far as longevity of life far beyond the present centuries, that is already hinted at as a possibility or goal but not via reversing ageing but increasing the effects of prolong.

The MA can increase the control of brain functions to fool interrogators and lie detectors. Even of the furry kind by tamping off emotions.


There's no evidence that fooling treecats is possible. There's one case in TEiF that raises eyebrows and we'll need to discuss, but it's not outright fooling the treecats.

We do know that the Detweilers and the other Alpha lines have long lifespans even without prolong. They also have more intelligence, higher stamina, etc. Their bodies are also aesthetically pleasing to others, like Anisimovna (btw, where's she nowadays?), unless they don't want that, like Bardasano.

But prolong can be seen as an artificial enhancement too. So why not other technological means? Why draw the line at genetics and medication, instead of technology?

I trust that I may borrow your often used 'absence of evidence is no evidence of absence'? I agree that prolong can be viewed as an artificial enhancement. Albeit, it would undoubtedly be considered a very benign, inocuous, or inconspicuous one. The average person most likely views prolong as being no more than a medical treatment akin to a vaccine. I agree the subject of fooling the treecats has to wait until after spoiler season.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:As far as this being against the Beowulf Code of ethics, I wouldn't think it is, per se. What would ruffle Beowulf's feathers is the inhumane road it takes to get there.

Unilinks and the like with high capacity offline storage can be implanted in the brain and updated as needed or required depending on the application, need or interest. Schematics can be uploaded to ground troops' onboard storage. One downside of this tech is if you are captured your brain will be accessed. Or rather, these peripheral chips. And, with 5G, people like Zilwicki and Ruth will hack your systems without you knowing it.


Well, no doubt on the inhumane road, which is probably what happened during the Final War: implanted supersoldiers who had no choice and also had no option to remove later (assuming they and their government survived). But so long as it's opt-in, why not? Do note how implants aren't inheritable, so children aren't affected until they reach a certain age.

(Unless Raoul was born with a blaster in his finger)

I also feel Beowulf would have a problem with taking it too far, but how far is too far? Is it too far to have nanites that allow you to survive in high radiation or toxicity environments? Or low atmospheric pressure? How about strengthening muscles and the skeleton so one can survive on 2G planets? Maybe a counter-intuitive solution but to lower the metabolism so one can survive colder climates?

Note how all of the above has been done in the HV with genetic manipulation, sometimes with side-effects and do affecting children.

If that's ok, can one choose to have stronger muscles for vanity reasons? Can they choose to be taller than a basketball player? Can they choose to have an extra set of arms?

Once Alfred cracks the secret of treecat telempathy, can you add a transceiver to yourself?

Yes, there's a danger that your technological implants can be hacked without your knowing. But if MAlign agents can drop dead on cue, so long as you know you're being captured, it should be just as easy to wipe the storage and leave the agent alive, but remembering nothing secret. The nefarious converse of this is that if you quit a job, the company may insist on wiping their "proprietary knowledge" off your implant too...

I wholly agree with you here. With the added caveat that when I was referring to inhumane, I was mainly referencing the unthinkable hidden horrors the MA allowed to go on in the lab towards its quest for perfection. Horrors that, presently, man sidesteps by the controversial use of animals.

****** *

Oops. I stepped on a spoiler.* I haven't yet completed the book and I am sad there is no Anisomovna. I am strangely affected by that woman's malignant charms.

At any rate, you suggested everyone should get the book and read it in one day. Of course, you didn't know it would turn out to be almost 700 pages long. Even so, I informed you that I couldn't possibly do so (even if it was half as voluminous) because I am simply not wired the way everyone else is. I stated that any book, even Weber's, has places where I get very emotional and have to put the book down. Like when someone dies.

Well, it happened big time on page 186. The entire fricking page. OMG!

How can anyone read that page and continue on unaffectedly? If you can, you should be impervious to a treecat's empathy!

I'm more than halfway thru now and there hasn't been any battles, but I am enjoying the book immensely. A few characters that I hoped were in this book, are. Cool.

I got the book late because I thought the release date was Oct. 12. Then life kept me from cracking the pages. Then page 186 happened. Oh, it's the page containing 'the equipment clause.' OMG, I am going to toss my cookies again.

Weber has such a way with words and imagery.

It has happened yet a third time and I am in a holding pattern. But, admittedly, I like to consume an excellent five star meal very slowly. Because after it is gone. It is gone. And I have waited many long years for this book to reach me the long way around. Those damn pesky Mantikooks had to go and shut down the junctions.

* What was that I said about the wisdom of zigzagging in a minefield.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:02 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2468
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

cthia wrote:I think we differ on terminology, which could be my own shortcoming. I accept 'prosthetic' as a complete replacement of an existing body part. And 'augmentation' as an addition of sorts. Like breast augmentation. So with that prerequisite, I can understand if the MA would shun prosthetics, because they want their genetics to become commonplace and accepted. Eventually they would want to make money on it, and they wouldn't want to disillusion a certain segment of the market. The HV has its fair share of vanity. And again, what ability can be achieved with a prosthetic that can't be genetically engineered into an already existing body part. Now, I think augmentation could be viewed differently, and, perhaps it would be in a future where the MA's genetic breakthroughs have been accepted. But that is an MA bridge that would be crossed tomorrow. They have to slowly lead their market to Shangri-la. But you're right overall, there seems to be a lot of room for the expansion of MA services. But they've got to crawl before they can walk or fly. I posited one aspect of their tech in totally eliminating transit sickness.


My point in this thread is that you can very easily blur the lines between a technological solution and a genetic one.

If you can replace body parts with arguably better non-biologic ones after a limb is lost, why not always pursue such solutions? There's a limit to how strong a calcium-based bone can be, whereas one infused with metal can be much stronger. It doesn't have to be adamantium.

And at a minimum, the MAlign nanites can be used to clean one's body of toxins that do usually build up. Why not be always healthy? Why do this encoding in the genes and risking side-effects, if you can do it by just drinking nanite juice once a month?

BTW, we're not going to see this in the HV novels. It's not their point. Also because we do see it in two other of David's universes. The capabilities of full nanite are in the Out of the Dark universe, with the vampires. Whereas the full transhumanist society is far more visible in the Gordianverse, with mind downloads onto fully synthetic bodies.

I hesitate to differentiate between the two. What is the difference? Except for the application of ethics when forcing the tech upon someone. At any rate, I was referring to the next evolution of compulsion. Presently, only simple commands and instructions can be embedded into the action. I am positing that the future of that particular technology will be much different and will hardly resemble what happens to a victim now.


Controlling one's body is usually good, but as I said it's not readily apparent. It can be useful for gimmicks, like commanding the hair or iris to change colour, or nails to extend or trim for Halloween night. Most other functions are autonomous and I don't see the need for people to command their hearts to beat faster or slower: in a well-regulated body, they beat as fast as they need to beat and no faster.

Maybe some soldiers would need the ability to command a higher metabolism and processing during battle. I don't know.

As for controlling others, I was thinking of population control. That must surely be in the Onion's plans. Can they command the masses to forget what they've seen, to part ways for their betters to pass, to kneel at the drop of a hat? This could be useful for less malignant ways, for example for law enforcement to command all persons to drop to the floor and stay down.

I trust that I may borrow your often used 'absence of evidence is no evidence of absence'? I agree that prolong can be viewed as an artificial enhancement. Albeit, it would undoubtedly be considered a very benign, inocuous, or inconspicuous one. The average person most likely views prolong as being no more than a medical treatment akin to a vaccine. I agree the subject of fooling the treecats has to wait until after spoiler season.


My point is it can be easy to take the acceptance of vaccines, prolong and prosthetics to the next step, if one wants it.

Oops. I stepped on a spoiler.* I haven't yet completed the book and I am sad there is no Anisomovna. I am strangely affected by that woman's malignant charms.


Oops, sorry about that. I was similarly affected by her charms and was... huh... lusting for her?

At any rate, you suggested everyone should get the book and read it in one day. Of course, you didn't know it would turn out to be almost 700 pages long. Even so, I informed you that I couldn't possibly do so (even if it was half as voluminous) because I am simply not wired the way everyone else is. I stated that any book, even Weber's, has places where I get very emotional and have to put the book down. Like when someone dies.


Yeah. It took me four days to read it.

Well, it happened big time on page 186. The entire fricking page. OMG!

How can anyone read that page and continue on unaffectedly? If you can, you should be impervious to a treecat's empathy!


Sorry, you'll have to describe on a spoiler thread what exactly is page 186. The Kindle e-book edition has 857 "pages." I can probably interpolate and find out what you're talking about, though.

I'm more than halfway thru now and there hasn't been any battles, but I am enjoying the book immensely. A few characters that I hoped were in this book, are. Cool.


Loved Cachat's interaction with some of the people he did early in the book.

And can't help but wonder how much more Ruth is going to grow as a super-spy. She's incredibly smart, except for her ability to get references. And that failing seems to be contagious...

I got the book late because I thought the release date was Oct. 12. Then life kept me from cracking the pages. Then page 186 happened. Oh, it's the page containing 'the equipment clause.' OMG, I am going to toss my cookies again.


The "equipment clause" was discussed in previous books. I know what passage you're talking about in TEiF now, but while this particular character seems to not have known this existed (at least not this viscerally), the rest of the Galaxy did. The enforcement of the Cherwell Convention by Haven, Manticore and Beowulf had long been based on the equipment clause, because slavers had figured out equipment to sidestep the letter of the convention.
Top
Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:07 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13790
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

ThinksMarkedly wrote:My point in this thread is that you can very easily blur the lines between a technological solution and a genetic one.

Agreed. I tend to think that is what nanite compulsion does.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:If you can replace body parts with arguably better non-biologic ones after a limb is lost, why not always pursue such solutions? There's a limit to how strong a calcium-based bone can be, whereas one infused with metal can be much stronger. It doesn't have to be adamantium.

NOT "always pursue." It should never become the default. Man should keep the lion's share of himself on the human side of the fence, as the norm. Besides, replacing limbs with stronger artificial limbs may also require strengthening surrounding muscle and more. Again, man and woman are very vain creatures, and we like to retain as much of our original, basic "look and feel" as possible. At any rate, my point is that the resistance would come from the average man in the street. I imagine most people are horrified of the prospect of artificial limbs if they don't regenerate. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should. I think the proposition of "prosthetics" will always carry a stigma. Humanity likes to keep the body "stock" if it were an automobile. :D

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And at a minimum, the MAlign nanites can be used to clean one's body of toxins that do usually build up. Why not be always healthy? Why do this encoding in the genes and risking side-effects, if you can do it by just drinking nanite juice once a month? -snip-

Again, I totally agree here. But those kinds of treatments would not be characterized as prosthetics, or even augmentations. They'd be considered as no more than simple medical treatments. Perhaps even as high-tech vitamins. Marketing will always be a viable science in peddling to the public. And full disclosure must be practiced. Again, you wouldn't want to disillusion a certain, very important, segment of the market because of their finicky sensibilities. However, the MA can keep certain breakthroughs for their own consumption. I imagine that will always be the case anyway. I don't imagine they will share compulsion with the Galaxy.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I hesitate to differentiate between the two. What is the difference? Except for the application of ethics when forcing the tech upon someone. At any rate, I was referring to the next evolution of compulsion. Presently, only simple commands and instructions can be embedded into the action. I am positing that the future of that particular technology will be much different and will hardly resemble what happens to a victim now.


Controlling one's body is usually good, but as I said it's not readily apparent. It can be useful for gimmicks, like commanding the hair or iris to change colour, or nails to extend or trim for Halloween night. Most other functions are autonomous and I don't see the need for people to command their hearts to beat faster or slower: in a well-regulated body, they beat as fast as they need to beat and no faster.

Agreed. And interesting. But those capabilities would be, for all intents and purposes, noninvasive. Humanity likes that word.

Albeit, these types of abilities would have to be a copper-plated Ransom to law enforcement. I can see some planets outlawing the ability if it is developed.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Maybe some soldiers would need the ability to command a higher metabolism and processing during battle. I don't know.

Or vice versa. It would have been a significant help if Honor could have shut down her aggressive metabolism when she was captured and held "for Ransom."

ThinksMarkedly wrote:As for controlling others, I was thinking of population control. That must surely be in the Onion's plans. Can they command the masses to forget what they've seen, to part ways for their betters to pass, to kneel at the drop of a hat? This could be useful for less malignant ways, for example for law enforcement to command all persons to drop to the floor and stay down.

Brilliant use of the tech! But it borders the unethical by crossing the bridge into mind control. In the hands of the unscrupulous it would be used to swindle, pilfer or even murder. Albeit, a mother would use it to control her kids. "Go to sleep you brats!"

It could be a boon to the medical professional too, if you could be ordered not to feel pain and/or to hold very still.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I trust that I may borrow your often used 'absence of evidence is no evidence of absence'? I agree that prolong can be viewed as an artificial enhancement. Albeit, it would undoubtedly be considered a very benign, innocuous, or inconspicuous one. The average person most likely views prolong as being no more than a medical treatment akin to a vaccine. I agree the subject of fooling the treecats has to wait until after spoiler season.


My point is it can be easy to take the acceptance of vaccines, prolong and prosthetics to the next step, if one wants it.

The operative phrase being "if one wants it." Again, I think the "humanity" found in the general market would offer the resistance to certain aspects.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Oops. I stepped on a spoiler.* I haven't yet completed the book and I am sad there is no Anisimovna. I am strangely affected by that woman's malignant charms.


Oops, sorry about that. I was similarly affected by her charms and was... huh... lusting for her?

Hands off buddy! Mine! Mine! Mine! I hope all of the doting and slobbering affections I bestowed upon her in the Eridani Edict Violation of the Most Dismissive Kind thread didn't somehow affect the author and made him jealous.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:At any rate, you suggested everyone should get the book and read it in one day. Of course, you didn't know it would turn out to be almost 700 pages long. Even so, I informed you that I couldn't possibly do so (even if it was half as voluminous) because I am simply not wired the way everyone else is. I stated that any book, even Weber's, has places where I get very emotional and have to put the book down. Like when someone dies.


Yeah. It took me four days to read it.

cthia wrote:Well, it happened big time on page 186. The entire fricking page. OMG!

How can anyone read that page and continue on unaffectedly? If you can, you should be impervious to a treecat's empathy!


Sorry, you'll have to describe on a spoiler thread what exactly is page 186. The Kindle e-book edition has 857 "pages." I can probably interpolate and find out what you're talking about, though.

cthia wrote:I'm more than halfway thru now and there hasn't been any battles, but I am enjoying the book immensely. A few characters that I hoped were in this book, are. Cool.


Loved Cachat's interaction with some of the people he did early in the book.

And can't help but wonder how much more Ruth is going to grow as a super-spy. She's incredibly smart, except for her ability to get references. And that failing seems to be contagious...

cthia wrote:I got the book late because I thought the release date was Oct. 12. Then life kept me from cracking the pages. Then page 186 happened. Oh, it's the page containing 'the equipment clause.' OMG, I am going to toss my cookies again.


The "equipment clause" was discussed in previous books. I know what passage you're talking about in TEiF now, but while this particular character seems to not have known this existed (at least not this viscerally), the rest of the Galaxy did. The enforcement of the Cherwell Convention by Haven, Manticore and Beowulf had long been based on the equipment clause, because slavers had figured out equipment to sidestep the letter of the convention.

The equipment clause was broached in other books but it was never so visually and emotionally invested.

I enjoyed Cachat's interactions as well. As readers, the benefit is that his character is fleshed out quite a bit more.

.

Late edit to add my own attributes.

.
Last edited by cthia on Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:22 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2468
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

cthia wrote:NOT "always pursue." It should never become the default. Man should keep the lion's share of himself on the human side of the fence, as the norm.


Why? There may be philosophical or religious reasons for this and I don't want to dismiss them. In fact, they may very well be the reason why this isn't allowed or done in the first place. But is there a biological reason?

Besides, replacing limbs with stronger artificial limbs may also require strengthening surrounding muscle and more. Again, man and woman are very vain creatures, and we like to retain as much of our original, basic "look and feel" as possible. At any rate, my point is that the resistance would come from the average man in the street. I imagine most people are horrified of the prospect of artificial limbs if they don't regenerate. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should. I think the proposition of "prosthetics" will always carry a stigma. Humanity likes to keep the body "stock" if it were an automobile. :D


We like to retain as much of our original? Sorry, I don't think that's exactly true, not for the entirety of the population. Plastic surgery exists today, which adds to us. I'd even venture the reason we don't replace more is that we currently don't have the technology.

But the HV does.

You may be right that people in the HV are indeed horrified of replacing limbs with anything non-biologic and not generated from their own DNA. There may still be a lot of resentment from way back in the Final War, when those implanted and augmented cyborgs were created and unleashed.

As for cars... well, you do know there's a very large after-market mod community, don't you?

Agreed. And interesting. But those capabilities would be, for all intents and purposes, noninvasive. Humanity likes that word.

Albeit, these types of abilities would have to be a copper-plated Ransom to law enforcement. I can see some planets outlawing the ability if it is developed.


But why limit to non-invasive? Why not allow an extra pair of arms? I could even imagine this becoming popular in Sphinx, where the native fauna is six-limbed.

Or vice versa. It would have been a significant help if Honor could have shut down her aggressive metabolism when she was captured and held "for Ransom."


Quite true. So if the Meyerdahl Mods that she had inherited had been technological in nature, allowing comfortable living on Sphinx, they could easily be turned off when not on Sphinx.

There would also be no Great Cookie Heist to get Travis Long busted and thus forming a friendship with Chomps.

Brilliant use of the tech! But it borders the unethical by crossing the bridge into mind control. In the hands of the unscrupulous it would be used to swindle, pilfer or even murder. Albeit, a mother would use it to control her kids. "Go to sleep you brats!"


Oh, yeah. Many a parent would like to command their newborns to sleep when it's time to sleep and to be awake when it's time to be awake. Though most transhumanist sci-fi I've read says that implants and nanite technology is only given to young adults after puberty. Sometimes, the reason given is biological development; sometimes, it's ethical as the people need to reach age of informed consent to make their choices.

In one of them (Peter F Hamilton's Commonwealth Saga series; specifically, in the Void Trilogy), one of the characters reminisces about using his newly-installed ability to enlarge a certain body part to impress a girl, with unexpected side-effects. Earlier in the series, Justine Burnelli remembers how she's been slowly adding to her height over R&R periods, and that in one of them she decided to have bigger breasts, but reverted that in her next Rejuv because it wasn't worth all the bad pickup lines she was getting.

Incidentally, the Commonwealth Saga is the best depiction of transhumanism I've ever read. If you haven't, I highly recommend; it may change your view of the topic and thus this thread. In the original Saga, it's very reachable from where our technology is today and even informative on what we could be as a species. By the Void Trilogy, like the Gordianverse, it's at "indistinguishable from magic" Clarketech level, but still made me want to be that way.

It could be a boon to the medical professional too, if you could be ordered not to feel pain and/or to hold very still.


We have anaesthetics today. Injecting someone with a serum or injecting someone with nanites that shut down peripheral nerve perception and major limb control is not very different from one another.

The advantage would be if the nanites are already in your body and all you have to do is grant the doctor access to your internal network. (incidentally, "internal network" is the name that Glynn Stewart gives the same topic in his Peacekeepers of Sol series) Just click Yes/No/Cancel.

The operative phrase being "if one wants it." Again, I think the "humanity" found in the general market would offer the resistance to certain aspects.


I'm curious as to why you think they would.

And I'm also curious if your opinion should change after reading the two Gordianverse novels and the Commonwealth Saga, if you haven't.

Hands off buddy! Mine! Mine! Mine! I hope all of the doting and slobbering affections I bestowed upon her in the Eridani Edict Violation of the Most Dismissive Kind thread didn't somehow affect the author and made him jealous.


Okay, okay, you can have Aldona, if I get Ruth!

The equipment clause was broached in other books but it was never so visually and emotionally invested.

Aye, and this is yet one more reason why TEiF is a good book. I'm pretty sure the passage you're describing was David's contribution more than Eric's. That one is just David at his best.

I enjoyed Cachat's interactions as well. As readers, the benefit is that his character is fleshed out quite a bit more.


"It's not fetish. It's just good precaution." :)

Anyway, we now know roughly where you are in the book. I'm sure we'll know when you get to some of the juicier bits towards the end, because you will be posting. Can't wait.
Top
Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:03 pm

Loren Pechtel
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1048
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:24 pm

It occurs to me something that is probably simple for the MAlign to do: Improved clotting.

The body normally has to strike a balance between clotting to stop bleeding and not clotting in the blood stream. It's a balance where the optimum solution is far from ideal.

However, nanotech could do a far better job of determining if it's truly a situation that warrants clotting. The nanotech equivalent to platelets should be able to save plenty of people that would otherwise have bled out.


Not quite so clear cut but there's also the issue that it's not actually the brain dying that causes the 4 minutes to survive without oxygen. Rather, it's a rebound reaction. I strongly suspect they could make something that counters that reaction and thus prolongs the survival time.

Also, I can picture a nanotech alarm. Blood flow stops or blood oxygen goes too low and it calls 911.
Top
Re: She shot him with her finger
Post by Daryl   » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:50 pm

Daryl
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3276
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:57 am
Location: Queensland Australia

I remember the $6 Million Man TV series.
Always amused that he could lift a car using his bionic arm, which was attached to his flesh and blood shoulder.
I'm heading towards being a cyborg.
A case of leukaemia that had a autoimmune component (What not scared by getting a nasty cancer? I'll throw in an AIDS equivalent set of symptoms.), led to my getting - a four way pacemaker (heart nerves eaten by the T cells), a Port a Cath (internal device permanently linked to my jugular to enable mass chemo), and now a titanium knee from my cartilage being eaten also.
As Covid is conquered and I resume travel, I expect to spend a lot of airport time being security vetted.
Top

Return to Honorverse