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Scenes we haven't read yet from UC

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Re: Scenes we haven't read yet from UC and other books
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:56 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Again, the TQ payment isn't after buying the ships but to thank the crews for saving the quadrant.


That they should have.

Perhaps to be more accurate, the 69 FF ships (16 BC's, 12 CA's, 23 CL's, and 18 DD's) were bought in since they are much closer to modern standards than BF, which especially out between the verge and the fringe beyond, are more than good enough. Granted that a hard pressed RMN would appreciate the extra coverage, but the SD's total mass means they are worth almost 14 times as much to Tenth Fleet.

The FF's are usefully employed by the TQG, and might have increased the TQ's locally owned hyper capable warships by 50-100%. including training crewmen of those TQ members who didn't have hyper capable warships before, to prepare them for the more advanced RMN ships after the war.


I don't think they were. At this point in time, the RMN wasn't pressed for ships. Maybe later, after Oyster Bay, they may have decided that they were worth it, but I still doubt it. More likely, they could be sold to other Haven Sector powers who may want them.

Because though the FF ships were closer to 1905 RMN quality, they were a far cry from 1920 quality. The RMN still had lots of Chanson, Culverin and Javelins in reserve at this time. They would do far better to use their own ships where available, for which they had full history of how to use, knew all the gremlins of, and had sufficient spare parts for (and blueprints for). Not to mention the RMN did not seem to be short of Wolfhounds and Rolands either.

While what to do with the 48 SD's was a dead horse before before being sent to the breakers in UC, I still think they would have made dandy deterrent scarecrows for any local pirates etc [cut]


I think you said it right what just about the only use they could have: scarecrows. Park one of them in one system and power it up, and no pirate is going to stay around to check if it's real.

Though they may want to use Loreleis for that. Those are probably cheaper to run.

Can't use them as scarecrows. RFC said no automated ships. Reactors tend to need warm bodies around to coddle them. They have a tendency to "run away." I wouldn't want to be the officer who draws that straw as part of a skeleton crew either, but I suppose it would be a fitting punishment. Akin to being banished to duty in Antarctica.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Scenes we haven't read yet from UC and other books
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:08 am

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Hi ThinksMarkedly,

Availability is indeed the point. Given a war with the SL, and not knowing when the TQ would be properly reinforced, buying them in seems obvious to me, as well as hinted at by RFC in posts as well as in SoF I believe.

If the RMN didn't buy them in, the TQ sure would have, given the paucity of coverage in the quadrant.

Remember how small the RMN squadron presence was in SoSag; possibly only 2-3 dozen ships for the then 17 systems, and how small Tenth Fleet was at New Tuscany. The Gladiators in SotS were the same mass and obviously a close equivalent to the Gauntlet in capability, as Helen mentioned to Web in CoS, NTM fan posts at Baen's Bar were quite perturbed at the future implications as I recall. ;)

I got in some hot water soon after SoSag for suggesting that the RTU could have had quite a few hyper capable warships and Rembrandt in particular 20% more than Monica's 32 or 38 with San Miguel at 32, Prairie and Redoubt with 26 and 20 each for up to 116 hyper-capable warships, with 4-5 others including Spindle, New Tuscany etc adding another 22-24 more, or twice Crandall's screen.

Of course, it's quite possible there were only half that many which is even more reason for Henri Krietzmann to have bought them in, given how threadbare the TQ's defenses were, and since most were either SL standard or knockoffs, they'd actually be more compatible in equipment and the training required than modern RMN types.

RFC came down hard when I suggested the RTU ( since Ansten described it as becoming a star nation in its own right) might be considering building battlecruisers in at least the 400-600 KT range and asking for specifications, since it now probably had over a dozen combined heavy cruisers (up to 18?). ;)

While Filareta's 110 ship FF screen probably weren't bought in by the RMN, they would supply lots of spares.

Regarding the 48 ex-SLN SD's, 3 per system (such an even fit made me think this is what RFC had in mind) would permit two in orbit training the locals with a small cadre of RMN SD veterans, the third patrolling outside the limit, that all the fringe freighters would notice and pass the word around. The cost to the RMN would be minimal for the cadre, the payoffs considerable in deterring raiders, conserving the RMN for other duties, impressing the verge/fringe neighbors, besides confirming the veracity of the SEM's reports of the Battle of Spindle, which they would understandably question; after all, "it's the Solarian League, they've never lost before!"

Ah well.

Best wishes forever,



[quote="ThinksMarkedly"][quote="lyonheart"]Again, the TQ payment isn't after buying the ships but to thank the crews for saving the quadrant. [/quote]

That they should have.

[quote]Perhaps to be more accurate, the 69 FF ships (16 BC's, 12 CA's, 23 CL's, and 18 DD's) were bought in since they are much closer to modern standards than BF, which especially out between the verge and the fringe beyond, are more than good enough. Granted that a hard pressed RMN would appreciate the extra coverage, but the SD's total mass means they are worth almost 14 times as much to Tenth Fleet.

The FF's are usefully employed by the TQG, and might have increased the TQ's locally owned hyper capable warships by 50-100%. including training crewmen of those TQ members who didn't have hyper capable warships before, to prepare them for the more advanced RMN ships after the war.[/quote]

I don't think they were. At this point in time, the RMN wasn't pressed for ships. Maybe later, after Oyster Bay, they may have decided that they were worth it, but I still doubt it. More likely, they could be sold to other Haven Sector powers who may want them.

Because though the FF ships were closer to 1905 RMN quality, they were a far cry from 1920 quality. The RMN still had lots of Chanson, Culverin and Javelins in reserve at this time. They would do far better to use their own ships where available, for which they had full history of how to use, knew all the gremlins of, and had sufficient spare parts for (and blueprints for). Not to mention the RMN did not seem to be short of Wolfhounds and Rolands either.

[quote]While what to do with the 48 SD's was a dead horse before before being sent to the breakers in UC, I still think they would have made dandy deterrent scarecrows for any local pirates etc [cut][/quote]

I think you said it right what just about the only use they could have: scarecrows. Park one of them in one system and power it up, and no pirate is going to stay around to check if it's real.

Though they may want to use Loreleis for that. Those are probably cheaper to run.[/quote]
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Scenes we haven't read yet from UC and other books
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:26 pm

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cthia wrote:Can't use them as scarecrows. RFC said no automated ships. Reactors tend to need warm bodies around to coddle them. They have a tendency to "run away." I wouldn't want to be the officer who draws that straw as part of a skeleton crew either, but I suppose it would be a fitting punishment. Akin to being banished to duty in Antarctica.


Well, that's what I was thinking: keep some skeleton crew aboard to keep the reactors running so it can bring up its massive impeller wedge and scare any crows that may come sniffing.

But I'm pretty sure that's just a colossal waste of fuel, personnel and time. Is there any pirate that wouldn't run from a Saganami-C? Pirates run from Silesian frigates! If you need a deterrent, a pair of Wolfhounds or Rolands would suffice. For action, a LAC wing based off an orbital station would be more than enough. Any of those would also be effective if a pirate decided to call the bluff. LACs can outrun anything other than an equal LAC.

And MUCH cheaper.
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Re: Scenes we haven't read yet from UC and other books
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:50 pm

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lyonheart wrote:Availability is indeed the point. Given a war with the SL, and not knowing when the TQ would be properly reinforced, buying them in seems obvious to me, as well as hinted at by RFC in posts as well as in SoF I believe.


With this premise, sure. But I don't agree with the premise.

The Battle of Spindle and the Yawata Strike happened roughly at the same time (close enough that either side did not know about the other due to the travel lag). Pritchart showed up at Mount Royal less than 3 months after that, offering not only a peace treaty, but an alliance. There wasn't enough time to decide to buy those ships into service.

Also remember that it was Tenth Fleet that fought the Battle of Spindle. Adm. Gold Peak knew what was in the pipeline for her. More importantly, Tenth Fleet was reinforced after Spindle and received two squadrons of wallers and at least 8 CLACs (one squadron and one division). Those ships were present during the liberation of the Madras sector, though they didn't do anything but scare the locals.

On top of all that, the RHN Second Fleet reinforced her. By the time she moved to Mesa, she had more wallers than ANY navy outside of the GA and the SLN itself.

If the RMN didn't buy them in, the TQ sure would have, given the paucity of coverage in the quadrant.


That's even assuming they had the legal right to do so. It's disputable.

They clearly had the right to raise the Quadrant Guard of ground personnel, which went to conquer, liberate and pacify Mesa.

Remember how small the RMN squadron presence was in SoSag; possibly only 2-3 dozen ships for the then 17 systems, and how small Tenth Fleet was at New Tuscany. The Gladiators in SotS were the same mass and obviously a close equivalent to the Gauntlet in capability, as Helen mentioned to Web in CoS, NTM fan posts at Baen's Bar were quite perturbed at the future implications as I recall. ;)


Yes, back in 1919. But after the Battle of Spindle, the situation had changed. Including the Havenites, there were more than three dozen wallers, so more than a division per system.

I got in some hot water soon after SoSag for suggesting that the RTU could have had quite a few hyper capable warships and Rembrandt in particular 20% more than Monica's 32 or 38 with San Miguel at 32, Prairie and Redoubt with 26 and 20 each for up to 116 hyper-capable warships, with 4-5 others including Spindle, New Tuscany etc adding another 22-24 more, or twice Crandall's screen.


Whether they had any warships or not I think is a moot point. However good the RTU could have been and however much Pres. Roberto Tyler could have funnelled into his ill-advised Monican Navy prior to the Manpower/Technodyne assistance, they were at best ships that the SLN would have considered obsolete. They were probably of Silesian quality or less.

In other words, any RMN ship from the 1870s or later would be an upgrade. There were plenty of those to be had.

That could've caused an arms race. Admittedly, that could have been the reason why Monica decided to buy two squadrons of battlecruisers: fearing that the RMN would arm Talbott. But the timeline doesn't fit: before Spindle, there were plenty of RMN ships to be had for no visible threat; after Spindle, Tenth Fleet was reinforced very quickly with the best the RMN had.

While Filareta's 110 ship FF screen probably weren't bought in by the RMN, they would supply lots of spares.


Yes. Spare parts and spare metal.

We're told the molycirc computers are just sand that can be programmed. So trip their security seals so they revert to the blank state, install the Manticore Base OS, and store in a warehouse. Heck, they may be better used by giving to the Ministry of Education and having them shipped to schools and universities quadrant-wide, to raise the level of education of the population.

Regarding the 48 ex-SLN SD's, 3 per system (such an even fit made me think this is what RFC had in mind) would permit two in orbit training the locals with a small cadre of RMN SD veterans, the third patrolling outside the limit, that all the fringe freighters would notice and pass the word around. The cost to the RMN would be minimal for the cadre, the payoffs considerable in deterring raiders, conserving the RMN for other duties, impressing the verge/fringe neighbors, besides confirming the veracity of the SEM's reports of the Battle of Spindle, which they would understandably question; after all, "it's the Solarian League, they've never lost before!"


As I said, the math works, but I don't think there's motivation or need for such measures.

Not when Tenth Fleet already had 12 wallers and 10 CLACs before Tourville came through the Lynx Terminus. Wallers are expensive and always need an escort screen. You don't distribute them in penny packets across systems.

And you don't train people on wallers. You train them on destroyers and light-cruisers, of which there doesn't appear to be a shortage of.
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Re: Scenes we haven't read yet from UC and other books
Post by Theemile   » Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:03 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Availability is indeed the point. Given a war with the SL, and not knowing when the TQ would be properly reinforced, buying them in seems obvious to me, as well as hinted at by RFC in posts as well as in SoF I believe.


With this premise, sure. But I don't agree with the premise.

The Battle of Spindle and the Yawata Strike happened roughly at the same time (close enough that either side did not know about the other due to the travel lag). Pritchart showed up at Mount Royal less than 3 months after that, offering not only a peace treaty, but an alliance. There wasn't enough time to decide to buy those ships into service.



Also remember that it was Tenth Fleet that fought the Battle of Spindle. Adm. Gold Peak knew what was in the pipeline for her. More importantly, Tenth Fleet was reinforced after Spindle and received two squadrons of wallers and at least 8 CLACs (one squadron and one division). Those ships were present during the liberation of the Madras sector, though they didn't do anything but scare the locals.

On top of all that, the RHN Second Fleet reinforced her. By the time she moved to Mesa, she had more wallers than ANY navy outside of the GA and the SLN itself.

If the RMN didn't buy them in, the TQ sure would have, given the paucity of coverage in the quadrant.


That's even assuming they had the legal right to do so. It's disputable.

They clearly had the right to raise the Quadrant Guard of ground personnel, which went to conquer, liberate and pacify Mesa.

Remember how small the RMN squadron presence was in SoSag; possibly only 2-3 dozen ships for the then 17 systems, and how small Tenth Fleet was at New Tuscany. The Gladiators in SotS were the same mass and obviously a close equivalent to the Gauntlet in capability, as Helen mentioned to Web in CoS, NTM fan posts at Baen's Bar were quite perturbed at the future implications as I recall. ;)


Yes, back in 1919. But after the Battle of Spindle, the situation had changed. Including the Havenites, there were more than three dozen wallers, so more than a division per system.

I got in some hot water soon after SoSag for suggesting that the RTU could have had quite a few hyper capable warships and Rembrandt in particular 20% more than Monica's 32 or 38 with San Miguel at 32, Prairie and Redoubt with 26 and 20 each for up to 116 hyper-capable warships, with 4-5 others including Spindle, New Tuscany etc adding another 22-24 more, or twice Crandall's screen.


Whether they had any warships or not I think is a moot point. However good the RTU could have been and however much Pres. Roberto Tyler could have funnelled into his ill-advised Monican Navy prior to the Manpower/Technodyne assistance, they were at best ships that the SLN would have considered obsolete. They were probably of Silesian quality or less.

In other words, any RMN ship from the 1870s or later would be an upgrade. There were plenty of those to be had.

That could've caused an arms race. Admittedly, that could have been the reason why Monica decided to buy two squadrons of battlecruisers: fearing that the RMN would arm Talbott. But the timeline doesn't fit: before Spindle, there were plenty of RMN ships to be had for no visible threat; after Spindle, Tenth Fleet was reinforced very quickly with the best the RMN had.

While Filareta's 110 ship FF screen probably weren't bought in by the RMN, they would supply lots of spares.


Yes. Spare parts and spare metal.

We're told the molycirc computers are just sand that can be programmed. So trip their security seals so they revert to the blank state, install the Manticore Base OS, and store in a warehouse. Heck, they may be better used by giving to the Ministry of Education and having them shipped to schools and universities quadrant-wide, to raise the level of education of the population.

Regarding the 48 ex-SLN SD's, 3 per system (such an even fit made me think this is what RFC had in mind) would permit two in orbit training the locals with a small cadre of RMN SD veterans, the third patrolling outside the limit, that all the fringe freighters would notice and pass the word around. The cost to the RMN would be minimal for the cadre, the payoffs considerable in deterring raiders, conserving the RMN for other duties, impressing the verge/fringe neighbors, besides confirming the veracity of the SEM's reports of the Battle of Spindle, which they would understandably question; after all, "it's the Solarian League, they've never lost before!"


As I said, the math works, but I don't think there's motivation or need for such measures.

Not when Tenth Fleet already had 12 wallers and 10 CLACs before Tourville came through the Lynx Terminus. Wallers are expensive and always need an escort screen. You don't distribute them in penny packets across systems.

And you don't train people on wallers. You train them on destroyers and light-cruisers, of which there doesn't appear to be a shortage of.



Oh God - the SLN SDs again.....

1) why use a SLN SD when RMN hardware was sitting in Reserve (yes, over 150 Sphinx and Gryphon SDs survived to 1923, and the SLN SDs had less combat capability than the RMN DNs, which all went to the breakers as being "Death Traps")

2) even a Skeleton Crew on a SLN is well over a 100 men just to keep the lights on, probably near 500 - remember a full crew was well north of 6K and even a group that size didn't keep up with the maintenance.

100 Men is 10 LACS - 500 is 1/2 a wing. And they have patrol, combat, and SAR capabilities, not just be a giant scarecrow.

3) Training and cadre: Why train on ancient foreign ships with non-standard software and hardware when Semi-modern (~10-30 year old ships) are available for training use.


As I said then, pull the small arms and combat tech and give to the local militaries. give the pinanaces and shuttles to the local governments/Spaceports. Give the Infirmaries to the local hospitals, give any reusable computer hardware to the local government - scrap the rest.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Scenes we haven't read yet from UC and other books
Post by tlb   » Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:19 pm

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cthia wrote:Can't use them as scarecrows. RFC said no automated ships. Reactors tend to need warm bodies around to coddle them. They have a tendency to "run away." I wouldn't want to be the officer who draws that straw as part of a skeleton crew either, but I suppose it would be a fitting punishment. Akin to being banished to duty in Antarctica.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Well, that's what I was thinking: keep some skeleton crew aboard to keep the reactors running so it can bring up its massive impeller wedge and scare any crows that may come sniffing.

But I'm pretty sure that's just a colossal waste of fuel, personnel and time. Is there any pirate that wouldn't run from a Saganami-C? Pirates run from Silesian frigates! If you need a deterrent, a pair of Wolfhounds or Rolands would suffice. For action, a LAC wing based off an orbital station would be more than enough. Any of those would also be effective if a pirate decided to call the bluff. LACs can outrun anything other than an equal LAC.

And MUCH cheaper.

Note that unmanned ships were used in the defense of Beowulf. However they were not autonomous, so did not violate RFC's prohibition. Instead they were remotely controlled to bring their wedges on line in a defense that the Hastas did not anticipate.
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Re: Scenes we haven't read yet from UC and other books
Post by Theemile   » Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:31 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Can't use them as scarecrows. RFC said no automated ships. Reactors tend to need warm bodies around to coddle them. They have a tendency to "run away." I wouldn't want to be the officer who draws that straw as part of a skeleton crew either, but I suppose it would be a fitting punishment. Akin to being banished to duty in Antarctica.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Well, that's what I was thinking: keep some skeleton crew aboard to keep the reactors running so it can bring up its massive impeller wedge and scare any crows that may come sniffing.

But I'm pretty sure that's just a colossal waste of fuel, personnel and time. Is there any pirate that wouldn't run from a Saganami-C? Pirates run from Silesian frigates! If you need a deterrent, a pair of Wolfhounds or Rolands would suffice. For action, a LAC wing based off an orbital station would be more than enough. Any of those would also be effective if a pirate decided to call the bluff. LACs can outrun anything other than an equal LAC.

And MUCH cheaper.

Note that unmanned ships were used in the defense of Beowulf. However they were not autonomous, so did not violate RFC's prohibition. Instead they were remotely controlled to bring their wedges on line in a defense that the Hastas did not anticipate.


"Wedge Buoys", autonomous ships the size of light cruisers with SD nodes and wedges, were mentioned by David back in the 90s as a standard piece of defense kit in the honorverse. Manticore's stations had them as an outer defense - they just never had a chance to spin up before the OB attack. The use of freighters is just a quick and dirty version of the same thing. note - they do not move or fight in any way - they just take the punches.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Scenes we haven't read yet from UC and other books
Post by cthia   » Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:38 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Can't use them as scarecrows. RFC said no automated ships. Reactors tend to need warm bodies around to coddle them. They have a tendency to "run away." I wouldn't want to be the officer who draws that straw as part of a skeleton crew either, but I suppose it would be a fitting punishment. Akin to being banished to duty in Antarctica.


Well, that's what I was thinking: keep some skeleton crew aboard to keep the reactors running so it can bring up its massive impeller wedge and scare any crows that may come sniffing.

But I'm pretty sure that's just a colossal waste of fuel, personnel and time. Is there any pirate that wouldn't run from a Saganami-C? Pirates run from Silesian frigates! If you need a deterrent, a pair of Wolfhounds or Rolands would suffice. For action, a LAC wing based off an orbital station would be more than enough. Any of those would also be effective if a pirate decided to call the bluff. LACs can outrun anything other than an equal LAC.

And MUCH cheaper.

The funny thing is if the pirates happened to call the bluff of a skeleton crew aboard SD's and the pirates were turned into skeletons. The RMN don't run worth a shit.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Scenes we haven't read yet from UC and other books
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:38 pm

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cthia wrote:The funny thing is if the pirates happened to call the bluff of a skeleton crew aboard SD's and the pirates were turned into skeletons. The RMN don't run worth a shit.


Not sure I understand you.

I think I was thinking more of a caretaker crew instead of skeleton crew, but the point is that they can't fight the ship. I'm not sure they could fire a single graser. And I wouldn't stage missiles onboard the scarecrow, using its poorly-maintained launchers (just have them fired by orbital pods instead). So a pirate that did call the bluff stood a good chance of actually winning the fight. Not that they'd want an SD: horribly expensive to operate for someone who is on a budget.

In any case, if you want a scarecrow vessel, you make a scarecrow, you don't repurpose a real vessel. Scarecrows aren't made with embalmed bodies of deceased persons (what a ghoulish thought!), they are made of straw and rags. So if you want something that looks like an SD but costs 1/100th to operate, you just make something with a massive, double impeller wedge of the same power as an SD. For that matter, make it look like an RMN SD.

And you know what? The RMN has such a piece in its inventory, it's called the Lorelei. It fooled the SLN at less than 20 million km, who had much better sensors and was much closer than any pirate would ever have/be.

If all you have are the paper tigers, then by all means use them (that's what the RMN did at the Other First Battle of Manticore). But it's not: the Talbott Quadrant has access to much better matériel and access to the premier fighting force in the Galaxy.
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Re: Scenes we haven't read yet from UC
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:21 pm

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I believe that at one point, captured SLN ships from Spindle etc were being shuttled to Manticore to be recycled. Given that in the same time frame we also heard about forming the Talbot Guard, then, yes all the small arms, etc that could be useful to the TG should have been stripped out (and small craft) as it is probable that what the various star system governments had for weapons and other military gear would have been mostly some type of Solly equipment or licensed (or knockoff) production and in the short term, you give your people "modern" equipment till you can get the SEM stuff.
After Filareta showed up at Manticore and looses all the metal etc, any SLN ships in Talbot probably should just be scrapped there. There had to be ships that it wasn't worth doing any repair work on just to take them to Manticore to scrap. It would be a source of materials for existing orbital manufacturing and help in construction of more orbital infrastructure. What we don't know is how soon any of the SEM systems in Talbot can start having companies getting into making things to ease the pressure on 1) spare parts for Military, 2) produce civilian goods for the Manticore export trade (boost restart that section of the economy.
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