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Battle of Hypatia questions

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Re: Battle of Hypatia questions
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:12 am

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tlb wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Well, the Mustang did seem to have a fair bit of stuff back there, though it may well be the exception.
Even the early models seems to have had the radios, batteries, and engine cooling radiator back there (fed by air from the belly scoop), and then later they stuck an extra fuel tank back there too (though IIRC that changed the CG enough to make handling a bit squirrely until you'd burned off a fair bit of it -- and also I want to say that tank wasn't self-sealing; unlike the rest. Another reason to use it up first).

"Lots of planes could carry drop tanks: P-47, P-40, P-38, etc.," says James Gibson, former MP&P Engineer at Boeing, says on Quora.

"The real secret to the Mustang’s range was not the laminar flow control wing, or the Merlin engine. It was the addition of a fuselage tank behind the cockpit halfway through production of the P-51B. This additional internal tank increased fuel capacity by 85 gallons: original P-51Bs only had 184 gallons in the wings. The addition increased total fuel to 269 gallons or some 30%. Further adding two 75 gal drop tanks you reached 419 gallons. The later D&H models carried 110 gal drop tanks for 489 gallons.

‘But when you carried so much fuel you had to be aware of which tanks you were using at which point in the flight. On take-off you used the rear fuselage tank. This tank effected the center of gravity of the plane. You didn’t want to tangle with a 109 or a Focke Wulf when carrying fuel in the rear tank. So you burned it first and then switched to the drop tanks about halfway to Berlin.

You would then burn off the drop tanks, hopefully before engaging enemy fighters. But if they struck early you could drop those tanks and thus be clean and maneuverable. This was the fight profile that allowed the Mustangs maximum range and best performance when over target."

And the presence of the turbocharger explains why you could not pull this same trick to add range to the P-47.



Hi all!

Post divergence as squirrelly as ever and as fascinating, it's kind of reassuring. I lament missing some great posts on history and technology. Maybe they should be collected in a special FYI file or folder.

While the P-72 or super thunderbolt would have been great since the P-47 was designed as the first single engined single pilot strategic fighter with something like 3 times the Spitfire's original fuel load, the air force was again more interested in publicity than meeting effective mission requirements.
I'm also reminded the Aussies shoehorned a Griffin engine into a locally built P-51 and hit 505mph at 5000' in November-December 1945, but didn't pursue development as they were already in line for Meteor jets.

As an aside I read TIEF on Saturday, and enjoyed it very much.

Regarding the time pods can be traitored externally, I never read any textev that mentioned it, but it'd RFC's universe; and he may have felt the need to place some limits on tractoring pods.
It would have been a considerable tactical hinderance having to replace the pods frequently for Home Fleet's SD's etc, if they were in the middle of switching in the next batch when Tourville arrived.

Back to the Battle of Hypatia, I still don't see how the 396 missile salvo's were arranged (how many each ship launched etc), nor how the Sag-B's had enough missiles for 19 volley's unless they carried more missiles than the Sag-C normally did (1200, 1320 warload), or were controlling Mark-16's previously launched by Phantom (before the first salvo was activated) but regardless it means the bulk of the 7524 missiles were Mark-16's launched from Phantom, at least an extra 2974 over the 950 in the 19 salvo's, or 118 minutes before the first activation, and if the Mark-16 could wait 18 minutes, could it wait 20, 30 or 40 (actually 39.6 for 132 volleys?

These and other questions continue to puzzle if not haunt my understanding.

Any insights will be very appreciated.

Bet wishes to all,
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Battle of Hypatia questions
Post by munroburton   » Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:24 am

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lyonheart wrote:Back to the Battle of Hypatia, I still don't see how the 396 missile salvo's were arranged (how many each ship launched etc), nor how the Sag-B's had enough missiles for 19 volley's unless they carried more missiles than the Sag-C normally did (1200, 1320 warload), or were controlling Mark-16's previously launched by Phantom (before the first salvo was activated) but regardless it means the bulk of the 7524 missiles were Mark-16's launched from Phantom, at least an extra 2974 over the 950 in the 19 salvo's, or 118 minutes before the first activation, and if the Mark-16 could wait 18 minutes, could it wait 20, 30 or 40 (actually 39.6 for 132 volleys?

These and other questions continue to puzzle if not haunt my understanding.

Any insights will be very appreciated.

Bet wishes to all,


I believe your confusion arises from the different launcher times very rarely mentioned in the books - IIRC, it takes about twice as long to cycle a MK16's launcher as it does a MK14's launcher, because of the time required to start the MK16's microfusion reactor. The Sag-Bs are firing twice for every time Phantom fires.

Every ~35 seconds:
HMS Phantom launches 50 MK16 DDMs.
The 4x Sag-Bs could each be launching 42 MK14 missiles twice, for 84*4, totalling 336.

There's some fudging because the Sag-Bs are(were?) only capable of adjacent off-bore firing. The numbers are theoretically as such:
Broadside-on: 19+2+2, 23 per salvo.
Chase-on: 19+19+2, 40 per salvo.
Wedge-on: 19+19+2+2, 42 per salvo.

The Sag-Bs don't have enough fire control links for the latter two of those options - but that's irrelevant due to Phantom's pair of baby keyholes providing all the fire control they needed.

This means the Sag-Bs fired about 85-90% of the missiles during that battle, not Phantom. I'm not certain how to explain a warload of at least 1600 missiles for the Sag-B with the Sag-C's numbers - the easiest way out is to accept that MK16s are probably that much larger than MK14s.

Yes - I just checked IEH. Before Honor shot him down, White Haven was up in arms about the proposed missiles effectively reducing each waller's total ammo load by about 20%. That almost perfectly fits the Sag-B's 1600 being reduced to ~1200-1320. It doesn't stretch the imagination to see the RMN accepting that kind of trade-off again.

Especially when these few MK16s did the bulk of the killing at Hypatia anyway. The MK14s' main contribution was to saturate the Solarian anti-missile defences so that more MK16s would survive into firing range.
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Re: Battle of Hypatia questions
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:43 am

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munroburton wrote:Yes - I just checked IEH. Before Honor shot him down, White Haven was up in arms about the proposed missiles effectively reducing each waller's total ammo load by about 20%. That almost perfectly fits the Sag-B's 1600 being reduced to ~1200-1320. It doesn't stretch the imagination to see the RMN accepting that kind of trade-off again.

Especially when these few MK16s did the bulk of the killing at Hypatia anyway. The MK14s' main contribution was to saturate the Solarian anti-missile defences so that more MK16s would survive into firing range.

Though note that those would have been the Mk41 capacitor powered 3-drive MDMs; the later microfusion powered Mk23 could be smaller and so you'd pay less of a ammo count penalty for them. However a 2-drive Mk16 needs full power for as long as it only has to run 2 drives, not 3 - yet the microfusion plant is presumably the same size (just with smaller fuel tanks). A hypothetical capacitor powered DDM would need less capacitor volume than a Mk41 MDM; but how the Mk16's proportionately larger microfusion stacks up against the reduced capacitor volume you'd need for DDM is hard to say -- beyond the obvious that the RMN found the overall tradeoffs favored the microfusion design; despite the reduction in firing rate. (But that could have been down to the higher power budget for ECM/jamming tilting things slightly in favor of a larger and slower firing design; we just don't know)

Also, IIRC, RFC told us that microfusion didn't make sense for an ERM (like the Mk14) because even with the extended runtime on its single drive the capacitors needed were smaller than the microfusion setup.


So with all that I'm not at all sure we could even start to apply the scaling for Mk41s vs capital SDMs to Mk16s vs Mk14s. (Beyond the obvious that the Mk16 is noticeably larger, and that's why the Sag-C had to be so much larger, about 14%, than the Sag-B to fit them in)
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Re: Battle of Hypatia questions
Post by munroburton   » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:05 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:So with all that I'm not at all sure we could even start to apply the scaling for Mk41s vs capital SDMs to Mk16s vs Mk14s. (Beyond the obvious that the Mk16 is noticeably larger, and that's why the Sag-C had to be so much larger, about 14%, than the Sag-B to fit them in)


It's imprecise to be sure. I thought of something better, ironically due to the different launcher cycles I was pointing out: "magazines allowing for X minutes of maximum rate fire."

40 minutes in a Nike's case. Since a Sag-C carries 30 to 33 salvoes, looks like the heavy cruiser rule of thumb is somewhere around fifteen minutes - and would mean a Sag-B carries 2,500 to 3,000 missiles.

So the ~20% reduction being a recurrence of what happened when first-gen MDMs replaced capital SDMs is out of the window anyway.
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Re: Battle of Hypatia questions
Post by Daryl   » Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:53 pm

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Late coming so apologies for changing the topic back.
My late dad flew Spitfires (also Kitty Hawks) in the Pacific.
If you understand British engines of the era (car,motorbike or plane) they all leaked oil.
Thus on long flights the Spitfire had a drop tank for oil as well as for fuel. The Merlin engine was a classic, but after long flights the fuselage needed cleaning down of oil.
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Re: Battle of Hypatia questions
Post by Theemile   » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:15 pm

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munroburton wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:So with all that I'm not at all sure we could even start to apply the scaling for Mk41s vs capital SDMs to Mk16s vs Mk14s. (Beyond the obvious that the Mk16 is noticeably larger, and that's why the Sag-C had to be so much larger, about 14%, than the Sag-B to fit them in)


It's imprecise to be sure. I thought of something better, ironically due to the different launcher cycles I was pointing out: "magazines allowing for X minutes of maximum rate fire."

40 minutes in a Nike's case. Since a Sag-C carries 30 to 33 salvoes, looks like the heavy cruiser rule of thumb is somewhere around fifteen minutes - and would mean a Sag-B carries 2,500 to 3,000 missiles.

So the ~20% reduction being a recurrence of what happened when first-gen MDMs replaced capital SDMs is out of the window anyway.


We've never seen the stats on the mk14/15 - we just know the old mk7 launcher that fired the mk 13 missile could not fire them.

We do know the stats on the Mk 13 and the Mk 16 though. From IFF, The mk 13 masses 84 tons, and from SFTS, the mk 16g masses 94 tons - one would assume the mk 14/15 lay somewhere between the two. But we do not know.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Battle of Hypatia questions
Post by Relax   » Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:34 am

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lyonheart wrote:
Hi all!

Post divergence

While the P-72 or super thunderbolt would have been great since the P-47 was designed as the first single engined single pilot strategic fighter with something like 3 times the Spitfire's original fuel load, the air force was again more interested in publicity than meeting effective mission requirements.
I'm also reminded the Aussies shoehorned a Griffin engine into a locally built P-51 and hit 505mph at 5000' in November-December 1945, but didn't pursue development as they were already in line for Meteor jets.


Blatantly not true. P51 with RR 1650-7 engine at 5000ft could barely hit 400mph with 150 octane fuel pumping out nearly 2000hp. The Griffin Engine using same fuel was giving ~2400hp. 400 extra HP does not equal 100mph... You may wish to look at difference when same 2400HP engine put on Spitfire vrs Merlin 1650-3 engine. Gave additional measly ~30mph.

CA-15, is what the Aussie Mustang was with Griffin, I believe made ~450mph or so.

P51H(Completely different than D model) hit +475mph with 2400Hp at ~25,000ft.

P47J, did hit over 500mph in a test, lightly loaded, at high altitude, with an engine boosted to about ~3000HP...

Rare Bear hit average of 520+mph with roughly 4000HP on a special VERY cold day at low elevation. Do note that is a F8F airframe that was highly modified(cut down) and lightened...

www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org is your friend; USE IT next time.
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Re: Battle of Hypatia questions
Post by Relax   » Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:58 am

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tlb wrote:And the presence of the turbocharger explains why you could not pull this same trick to add range to the P-47.

Not true, just look at the P47 cutaway drawing. It is wide open behind cockpit for a fuel tank of equal size. The intercooler and turbo is a good 3 bulkheads behind the cockpit or roughly 5ft.

It should be noted that ~late 43' the USAAF cut back... WAAAYY back on designating amount of fuel for:
Warm Up/Taxi, forming up, Combat, and reserve fuel. These changes alone gave an additional ~100+ miles of range to all fighters. If you want nitty gritty go to Greg's Planes and Automobiles channel and watch P47 Range video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCLa078v69k where he goes into the Eggs and Braids Bureaucratic Bull Cover Your Ass malarky which is where the absurd notion of the P51's as escort fighters compared to the P47 comes from.... All due to abject arrogance that the Bomber would get through and would not need those fancy Dan fly boys... So arrogant they expressly BANNED $$$ to go towards drop tanks... You will note Lockheed Martin was selling drop tanks to the Brits in 1940... for their Ventura aircraft. Republic designed, tested 200gallon drop tank for high altitude for the P47 FROM THE OUTSET... Instead USAAF personnel had to go to Brit manufacturers and get crappy paper tanks made with vastly more drag instead of the high altitude streamlined tanks already designed by Republic...

Another addendum, NIT: Republic never bothered to put a fuel tank back there. P47D added 70+ gallons of fuel itself to the wings at same time the P51 added ~80 gallons itself behind the cockpit in late B models. P47 Could have added more... Which they did with the N model and had an ultimate radius/range WELL over 2300nm with warm up, climb, 10min combat added in...
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Re: Battle of Hypatia questions
Post by Relax   » Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:07 am

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lyonheart wrote:Back to the Battle of Hypatia, I still don't see how the 396 missile salvo's were arranged (how many each ship launched etc), nor how the Sag-B's had enough missiles for 19 volley's unless they carried more missiles than the Sag-C normally did (1200, 1320 warload),
Any insights will be very appreciated.

Bet wishes to all,


Math goober it would appear.
SAG-C 1200/40 = 30 salvos.
SAG-B is still a CA, why would they not also have 30 salvos? With slightly more tubes, slightly more missiles, but much smaller missiles so by tonnage would be less than SAG-C? Or equal?

Roland itself has 20 salvos and is a Destroyer, so why is there a problem with 19 salvos?

EDIT: Uh, should have read your post closer, what I wrote is not what you were asking??? I am going to have to get off my butt and reread Hypatia battle which I have not done in in a couple years.
Last edited by Relax on Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Battle of Hypatia questions
Post by Relax   » Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:12 am

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Daryl wrote:Late coming so apologies for changing the topic back.
My late dad flew Spitfires (also Kitty Hawks) in the Pacific.
If you understand British engines of the era (car,motorbike or plane) they all leaked oil.
Thus on long flights the Spitfire had a drop tank for oil as well as for fuel. The Merlin engine was a classic, but after long flights the fuselage needed cleaning down of oil.

A drop tank for oil? I have never read that one before. Cool. Got some more details? I have always read they just increased the oil tank volume to coincide with the longer missions the extra fuel provided.
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