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SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists

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SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by Randomiser   » Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:00 pm

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Very much enjoyed the book. Good to see that the pace of events has picked up and the overall plot is significantly advanced. Even if it sometimes feels that Honor is being namechecked and dragged in because, 'Oh well it is the Honorverse, after all!"

Can't help thinking that O'Hanrahan's actions in the last few chapters are deeply out of character though. The crack investigative journalist, who works out the truth about her assassination attempt pretty much instantly when she wakes up in the hospital, swallows the whole story she is fed about a 3rd Detweiller-inspired secret organisation called the Alignment hook line and sinker, with no doubts or suspicions? Really?

It's just delicious that "Charles E (Chuck) Gannon" has been tuckerized in as the new head of the Sollie ONI. :lol:

Interesting to see the internal dissent group on Darius, though. It's a loose thread for the next book and clearly going to be connected with the other loose thread - that there is neither hide nor hair of Zach McBryde on Galton. Really blatant lead-in to the next book in the last chapter, makes me hope it may appear sooner rather than later.

That would be a good thing. :D Seriously, given Runsforcelery is not getting any younger and has had significant health problems over the last while, it would be great to see the series brought to a fitting conclusion in the next book. (Eric Flint isn't a spring chicken either!)
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by Joat42   » Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:43 pm

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Randomiser wrote:Can't help thinking that O'Hanrahan's actions in the last few chapters are deeply out of character though. The crack investigative journalist, who works out the truth about her assassination attempt pretty much instantly when she wakes up in the hospital, swallows the whole story she is fed about a 3rd Detweiller-inspired secret organisation called the Alignment hook line and sinker, with no doubts or suspicions? Really?

We've discussed the above earlier and it's entirely possible rfc told the story that way as a setup for an event that will occur in a later book because, as you say, it's a bit out of character for O'Hanrahan.

---
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:46 am

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Randomiser wrote:Very much enjoyed the book. Good to see that the pace of events has picked up and the overall plot is significantly advanced. Even if it sometimes feels that Honor is being namechecked and dragged in because, 'Oh well it is the Honorverse, after all!"

Can't help thinking that O'Hanrahan's actions in the last few chapters are deeply out of character though. The crack investigative journalist, who works out the truth about her assassination attempt pretty much instantly when she wakes up in the hospital, swallows the whole story she is fed about a 3rd Detweiller-inspired secret organisation called the Alignment hook line and sinker, with no doubts or suspicions? Really?

(snip)



I suspect that Audrey really wanted to believe that story.
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by Relax   » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:53 am

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I think the book was slanted at the end severely to 1) leave reader in suspense and 2) shorten the book. Audrey was the plot horse to be beaten.

The GA KNOWS, Alignment has spider drives of BIG GRASER missiles + Spider Ships and NONE were seen at Galton. IF this is their main hidden base... All stops would have been removed and shown. Massive glaring problem I had with the Gail Weis portion NOT showing Spider drives etc... I thought they were supposed to be pretending GALTON was the main HQ... Not showing the reader who can remember 3 books back where Honor etc were all having LONG conversations about miracle stealth ships/missiles which never existed at Galton... Even Michelle Henke @10th fleet was discussing it and yet... Nothing...

Likewise No battle planning apparently was done trying to address these BIG glaring plot holes. Of course ALL pre battle planning was not shown, so maybe they DID do so and RFC/EF Purposefully removed it for dweebs to twiddle twaddle about in our brains as we are reading it and to START the next book showing the GA, "figuring out" that the REAL MALIGN Bolthole is elsewhere and the "superhumans" who are supposedly "brilliant" and "genius's" are so arrogant they signed their own demise.

Oh other than miracle capacitors which supply more power than giant multi ton nuclear bombs for 3s as repeated once again after being introduced in UH, the book was good.
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by bert953   » Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:47 pm

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Just finished TEIF, in 1 sitting though l stayed up till 5:30 am. I thought it was fantastic and l really enjoyed the political and forensic analysis. Of course l have some comments and questions for discussion.

Does Audrey O'Hanrahan have nanites and what would be the trigger? She has a high profile, stressful job that may be difficult to set a trigger for without false positives (that would be a killer) as opposed to spys like Geron who's exposure triggered the protocol.

There appear to be 2 types of nanites:
1. Suicide protocol (SPy) which causes aneurisms. Does this protocol require a visit to a med facility for specalized application and/or, programming? Harahap didn't get nannites due to oversight after Green Pines. Why was the psycho MAlign agent who helped facilitate Houdini was given a retirement gift via an aircar bomb instead of using nannites?
2. Physical Override Protocol (POP) causes the victim to perform specific physical acts, such as self harm. This protocol is applied in the field without the victim's knowledge.

O'Hanarhan is of a highly inteligent Alpha line who would also need a high level of empathy to be effective as a investigative journalist. Her handlers had her on Mesa for Houdini and specifically instructed her where to avoid (at least what specific hotels to stay at). Putting 2+2 together and not being an Alignment fanatic, she had to be concerned about the end justifying the means and her part in it. She went along with the program, but then Phoebe showed up with a tale of 2 Alignments. The original Detweiler plan to enhance humanity via genetic engineering (think GMO's) was usurped by the Malignant Alignment of Mesa (MAM) birthing a secret, benign anti-Revolutionary Alignment faction on Darius (aRAD), seperate from the Benign Alignment of Mesa (BAM) now called the Engagement. The aRAD left Mesa and is now on Darius (unless there's yet another secret star system) but has limited power and resources so must remain hidden from the galaxy at large but even more from the Malignant Alignment of Darrius (MAD), the brains of the operation. Phoebe  stated that Detwiler would be aghast at MAD's activities, not realizing that a Detwiler clone was directing them. I'm wondering how this clone was indoctrinated to be so ruthelessly anti-social at odds with the idealistic original Detwiler. 

By the way, we readers know that the MAD has a 2nd secret star system (REALLY?), the Malignant Alignment of Galton (MAG) and ties to the Renaissance Factor and Mannerheim. The MAG provided the hardware for the attacks on Manicore, Grayson and Beowulf as well as the Cataphract missiles used by the Sollies. However they are sacrifical goats as part of MAD's onion strategy and they have no data on the streak drive which MAD uses as high speed dispatch boats, or other proprietary tech (likely including the killer nanotech). They do have actual spider drive Hasta graser drones which will help sell the con.

I was not convinced that Phoebe is not a MAD mouthpiece although we now know that there actually is an aRAD which is in the process of recruiting Gail and Zach. If Phoebe is telling the truth, then O'Hanarhan works for aRAD and perhaps MAD doesnt know about her, thought l think this is unlikely, then she may not have killer nannites.

What part will the Torch /Darius wormhole play in the MAD's nefarious plans? How will it turn around and bite them for the discovery and subsequent invasion of Darius?

What interesting anomalies will the "Dynamic-duo" of Zilwicki and Cachat, the Ghost hunters play when they analyze Galton's and Jessek Combine's databases? The GA knows about the streak drive from the timetables of events in the Verge so if there is no trace of that data its a big clue there's more onion to peel. Same thing if there's nothing about the killer nannite tech.

Lets not forget Harahap, FireWatch and Indy for some up-close and personal conflicts. There should also be an intelligence leak from the Renaissance factor, just because its too big to keep secret amongst so many conspirators.
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by Relax   » Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:25 am

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bert953 wrote:
Does Audrey O'Hanrahan have nanites and

By the way, we readers know that the MAD has a 2nd secret star system (REALLY?), They do have actual spider drive Hasta graser drones which will help sell the con.


1) We know there is a 3rd alignment who may have(maybe) done the "Janus" protocol on Audrey which may??? kill the killer nannites. Audrey who it appears is NOT part of said 3rd alignment but Phoebe said she was guiding Audrey as part of the 3rd alignment so... :idea: :?: :!: :?:

2) Hasta Graser is NOT spider drive. It is on a recon platform which then has a CM warhead with said Graser which lasts 3 SECONDS.... :roll: Off of capacitors :shock:

So Galton has no Spider drive at all and why GAIL was miffed! We do not know if they have streak drive there. Or maybe I am having a mind fart. :cry: :?
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:47 am

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Randomiser wrote:Very much enjoyed the book. Good to see that the pace of events has picked up and the overall plot is significantly advanced. Even if it sometimes feels that Honor is being namechecked and dragged in because, 'Oh well it is the Honorverse, after all!"

Can't help thinking that O'Hanrahan's actions in the last few chapters are deeply out of character though. The crack investigative journalist, who works out the truth about her assassination attempt pretty much instantly when she wakes up in the hospital, swallows the whole story she is fed about a 3rd Detweiller-inspired secret organisation called the Alignment hook line and sinker, with no doubts or suspicions? Really?


[snip]

It makes sense to me to give Honor command of a newly - formed anti-alignment fleet mission. Who is better suited for it? So I didn't get that 'oh well, this is the Honorverse' - vibe that you did.

Also Honor's inner conflict on how to react to the sneak attack from the civilian installations - and her restraint - will likely turn out to be decisive later on. The Malign will probably have planned for all those installations to be wiped out by the Manty reaction - together with any undesirable evidence. But now that Honor didn't finish those installations off the Manties and O'Hanrahan have everything in their hands to crawl over with a fine comb. I am sure they'll find things that the Malign had really, really wished they didn't.

The O'Hanrahan storyline makes sense to me too. Well - from O'Hanrahan's perspective that is. (Not so much from the Malign perspective. I'll come to that in a second.)

O'Hanrahan has a deep-rooted incentive to believe anything that keeps her illusion intact that the things she has dedicated her life to (furthering the interests of the Alignment in the Solarian League) are good things. Because if she would see through this illusion, everything she did in her life would have been so very wrong! Who wants to admit to themselves that they dedicated their life to a cabal of genocidal mass murderers?
So while like you I find the 'malign Malign' - cover story to be quite a stretch I find it very human that O'Hanrahan (so far!!) believes it. But you are right too: she is a crack investigative journalist. I am sure that she will find out the truth. And when that happens she will turn. That's the whole point of her storyline in To Énd in Fire. She'll cover the Manties' investigation of the captured civilian installations and get first hand knowledge of the clues that get found. Her basic decency and the fact she has been exposed to Honor and her staff for so long in the book and knows their moral code is completely real she'll have no other choice but to admit to herself what she really doesn't want to admit: that she has been on the wrong side all the time.

Now from the Malign perspective sending off O'Hanrahan onto that mission into Honor's staff and expose her to Honor's values and way of thinking and give her first-hand access to the clues that will turn up is a very bad idea IMO. That's a high-risk gamble for the Malign that can so so easily go wrong. Now O'Hanrahan likely has the killer nanites as an insurance, but still. Also I can't see this storyline leading nowwhere. It has been so thoroughly set up. This will be another of those Malign plans that come back as a boomerang.
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by saber964   » Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:14 am

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Randomiser wrote:Very much enjoyed the book. Good to see that the pace of events has picked up and the overall plot is significantly advanced. Even if it sometimes feels that Honor is being namechecked and dragged in because, 'Oh well it is the Honorverse, after all!"

Can't help thinking that O'Hanrahan's actions in the last few chapters are deeply out of character though. The crack investigative journalist, who works out the truth about her assassination attempt pretty much instantly when she wakes up in the hospital, swallows the whole story she is fed about a 3rd Detweiller-inspired secret organisation called the Alignment hook line and sinker, with no doubts or suspicions? Really?

It's just delicious that "Charles E (Chuck) Gannon" has been tuckerized in as the new head of the Sollie ONI. :lol:

Interesting to see the internal dissent group on Darius, though. It's a loose thread for the next book and clearly going to be connected with the other loose thread - that there is neither hide nor hair of Zach McBryde on Galton. Really blatant lead-in to the next book in the last chapter, makes me hope it may appear sooner rather than later.

That would be a good thing. :D Seriously, given Runsforcelery is not getting any younger and has had significant health problems over the last while, it would be great to see the series brought to a fitting conclusion in the next book. (Eric Flint isn't a spring chicken either!)



Chuck isn't the only one to be tuckered in. RADM Lawrence Coarrieia was tucked in
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:47 am

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Bruno Behrends wrote:Also Honor's inner conflict on how to react to the sneak attack from the civilian installations - and her restraint - will likely turn out to be decisive later on. The Malign will probably have planned for all those installations to be wiped out by the Manty reaction - together with any undesirable evidence. But now that Honor didn't finish those installations off the Manties and O'Hanrahan have everything in their hands to crawl over with a fine comb. I am sure they'll find things that the Malign had really, really wished they didn't.

The O'Hanrahan storyline makes sense to me too. Well - from O'Hanrahan's perspective that is. (Not so much from the Malign perspective. I'll come to that in a second.)

O'Hanrahan has a deep-rooted incentive to believe anything that keeps her illusion intact that the things she has dedicated her life to (furthering the interests of the Alignment in the Solarian League) are good things. Because if she would see through this illusion, everything she did in her life would have been so very wrong! Who wants to admit to themselves that they dedicated their life to a cabal of genocidal mass murderers?
So while like you I find the 'malign Malign' - cover story to be quite a stretch I find it very human that O'Hanrahan (so far!!) believes it. But you are right too: she is a crack investigative journalist. I am sure that she will find out the truth. And when that happens she will turn. That's the whole point of her storyline in To Énd in Fire. She'll cover the Manties' investigation of the captured civilian installations and get first hand knowledge of the clues that get found. Her basic decency and the fact she has been exposed to Honor and her staff for so long in the book and knows their moral code is completely real she'll have no other choice but to admit to herself what she really doesn't want to admit: that she has been on the wrong side all the time.

Now from the Malign perspective sending off O'Hanrahan onto that mission into Honor's staff and expose her to Honor's values and way of thinking and give her first-hand access to the clues that will turn up is a very bad idea IMO. That's a high-risk gamble for the Malign that can so so easily go wrong. Now O'Hanrahan likely has the killer nanites as an insurance, but still. Also I can't see this storyline leading nowwhere. It has been so thoroughly set up. This will be another of those Malign plans that come back as a boomerang.


Just finished the book last night. And here I thought I was reading fast!

I quite agree on Audrey. She was grasping for straws and latched onto the story that confirmed what she wanted to believe. A splinter faction knowing what Galton was doing and had been come too militaristic is not too unbelievable. In fact, we know such a thing exists... on Darius!

But that story has holes. I think Audrey turned her brain off just from the flood of endorphins. If the story were true, then "her" Alignment was privy to all of the details of where the bombs would be planted. They'd at least be complicit on the attacks, but more importantly it would mean they had infiltrated to such a deep level to know those operational plans. Another internal inconsistency is that Houdini had its tempo upped even before Tenth Fleet's arrival, but the infiltration had up-to-date plans in time for her handlers.

Whether she's begun noticing these inconsistencies and simply not acted on them since, is probably a topic for the next book. Also, how much does Michael Anderle, her bodyguard, know? How much is he instructed to handle?

Speaking of... didn't anyone in the Old Chicago police forces notice that the assassination attempt happened after Audrey's air car was diverted? Her assassins would have been out of position because of that! As clearly highly paid those were, they wouldn't have thrown the op plan to the wind and winged it, would they?

Finally, I agree with others that there'll be inconsistencies in Galton. I hadn't thought of Zach McBryde, but indeed that's another one. Not enough on its own (he could have just never made it), but adding to the rest should provide some hints to Ruth Winton that Galton was mostly a patsy.
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by tlb   » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:00 am

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Got the hard cover Saturday (nearly 700 pages, nice!) and have finished the first read.

I do not know why Audrey was not outraged by the fake assassination (which was much too close to the real thing), since she was probably supremely confident in her credibility already.

When reading the earlier books, I was sure there were actual bombs put into the State Sec ships while they were in Malign shipyards, but now we find that there were computer suicide protocols installed instead. I cannot find the earlier text to check my memory. However this gives a satisfactory answer to what Shannon did to bring about her "Oops" moment.

I can sort of understand why there were no spider drives used in Operation Alamo. The Malign does not want the Grand Alliance to gain any knowledge or experience of their use, because they will be vital to operations and the defense of Darius. Even though this leads to the thought that there is another hidden fortress world. Darius is better hidden because of the wormhole, so it cannot be as easily found by triangulation of astrographic information.
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