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SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists

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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:50 am

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I have found a discrepancy in the book, which has no effect on the story; but is an interesting oversight.

Early in the book, Queen Berry comes aboard Michelle Henke's flag ship and they talk. Michelle asks Berry if she had ever met cousin Elizabeth. Berry says the Queen, no Empress now? She then says they met long before Berry became Queen of Torch (referring to Crown of Slaves). Then Mike laughs about how the propriety-obsessed protocolists will react when first there is a state visit to Manticore.

But all this has already happened. Chapter 33 of A Rising Thunder makes it clear that Queen Berry attended the wedding of Rivka to Crown Prince Roger. It is a certainty that the Queen and the Empress would have met at that time.
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:39 pm

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tlb wrote:I have found a discrepancy in the book, which has no effect on the story; but is an interesting oversight.

Early in the book, Queen Berry comes aboard Michelle Henke's flag ship and they talk. Michelle asks Berry if she had ever met cousin Elizabeth. Berry says the Queen, no Empress now? She then says they met long before Berry became Queen of Torch (referring to Crown of Slaves). Then Mike laughs about how the propriety-obsessed protocolists will react when first there is a state visit to Manticore.

But all this has already happened. Chapter 33 of A Rising Thunder makes it clear that Queen Berry attended the wedding of Rivka to Crown Prince Roger. It is a certainty that the Queen and the Empress would have met at that time.


I noticed the same. I also noted that Rivka became Riva at some point too.

But Michelle didn't attend that wedding. She was in the Talbott Quadrant at the time, so maybe Berry played along to avoid correcting the admiral. That's how I "explained" it.

In any case, it's quite likely that Berry had met the Queen/Empress before Berry and Ruth left Manticore for the wake of Hieronymus Cutter, but she wasn't Queen Berry yet.
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by munroburton   » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:24 pm

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_visit

Berry's attendance of that wedding wasn't a full-scale formal State Visit from Torch to Manticore, like Elizabeth's visit to Grayson in AoV was.
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:30 pm

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tlb wrote:I have found a discrepancy in the book, which has no effect on the story; but is an interesting oversight.

Early in the book, Queen Berry comes aboard Michelle Henke's flag ship and they talk. Michelle asks Berry if she had ever met cousin Elizabeth. Berry says the Queen, no Empress now? She then says they met long before Berry became Queen of Torch (referring to Crown of Slaves). Then Mike laughs about how the propriety-obsessed protocolists will react when first there is a state visit to Manticore.

But all this has already happened. Chapter 33 of A Rising Thunder makes it clear that Queen Berry attended the wedding of Rivka to Crown Prince Roger. It is a certainty that the Queen and the Empress would have met at that time.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I noticed the same. I also noted that Rivka became Riva at some point too.

But Michelle didn't attend that wedding. She was in the Talbott Quadrant at the time, so maybe Berry played along to avoid correcting the admiral. That's how I "explained" it.

In any case, it's quite likely that Berry had met the Queen/Empress before Berry and Ruth left Manticore for the wake of Hieronymus Cutter, but she wasn't Queen Berry yet.

Yes, Crown of Thorns begins with Anton and Berry meeting the Queen and being introduced to Princess Ruth for the purpose of attending the wake as you say. That has to be what Berry referred to when talking to to Michelle Henke. But still Mike should have known about that visit to attend the wedding. I am not sure that Berry would have any problem in updating Mike's knowledge.

That visit may not have been a state visit; but even as an official visit, the "propriety-obsessed protocolists" would had to have been involved. Consider that they were involved the first time that Honor appeared as Steadholder Harrington, despite being in naval uniform.
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by munroburton   » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:29 pm

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tlb wrote:That visit may not have been a state visit; but even as an official visit, the "propriety-obsessed protocolists" would had to have been involved. Consider that they were involved the first time that Honor appeared as Steadholder Harrington, despite being in naval uniform.


They're involved at every level, yes. What makes an all-up state visit so much more stressful for the protocolists is how many more people would have to be instructed that they have to say "Your Mousety," with a solemn expression. Or at least without giggling.
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:54 pm

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munroburton wrote:They're involved at every level, yes. What makes an all-up state visit so much more stressful for the protocolists is how many more people would have to be instructed that they have to say "Your Mousety," with a solemn expression. Or at least without giggling.


Did she drop the "Your Incisorship" title?
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by Junk1992   » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:50 am

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tlb wrote:I have found a discrepancy in the book, which has no effect on the story; but is an interesting oversight.

Early in the book, Queen Berry comes aboard Michelle Henke's flag ship and they talk. Michelle asks Berry if she had ever met cousin Elizabeth. Berry says the Queen, no Empress now? She then says they met long before Berry became Queen of Torch (referring to Crown of Slaves). Then Mike laughs about how the propriety-obsessed protocolists will react when first there is a state visit to Manticore.

But all this has already happened. Chapter 33 of A Rising Thunder makes it clear that Queen Berry attended the wedding of Rivka to Crown Prince Roger. It is a certainty that the Queen and the Empress would have met at that time.


There was also Berry's visit with her entire cabinet in Cauldron. When Jeremy made everybody freak just by entering the room.
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by tlb   » Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:23 am

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tlb wrote:I have found a discrepancy in the book, which has no effect on the story; but is an interesting oversight.

Early in the book, Queen Berry comes aboard Michelle Henke's flag ship and they talk. Michelle asks Berry if she had ever met cousin Elizabeth. Berry says the Queen, no Empress now? She then says they met long before Berry became Queen of Torch (referring to Crown of Slaves). Then Mike laughs about how the propriety-obsessed protocolists will react when first there is a state visit to Manticore.

But all this has already happened. Chapter 33 of A Rising Thunder makes it clear that Queen Berry attended the wedding of Rivka to Crown Prince Roger. It is a certainty that the Queen and the Empress would have met at that time.

Junk1992 wrote:There was also Berry's visit with her entire cabinet in Cauldron. When Jeremy made everybody freak just by entering the room.

Welcome to the Forum and thank you for this information (chapter 13, which had completely slipped my mind). Plus when Queen Berry announces that she is going (near the end of chapter 10), she says that it will be an "official state visit".

However, when there she was still deciding how she should be officially addressed. That was in chapters 13 and 14, but I am rereading to see what else I forgot and in chapter 18 she is called Her Mousety in a somewhat less formal setting.
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Re: SPOILERS TEiF Plot Twists
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:28 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Speaking of... didn't anyone in the Old Chicago police forces notice that the assassination attempt happened after Audrey's air car was diverted? Her assassins would have been out of position because of that! As clearly highly paid those were, they wouldn't have thrown the op plan to the wind and winged it, would they?
It's entirely possible that those highly paid assassins actually arranged for the issue at the normal landing pad to force the diversion; just so O'Hanrahan would have a reason to be walking across a more exposed area.

But yeah, there's no comment about it one way or the other in the book.
tlb wrote:When reading the earlier books, I was sure there were actual bombs put into the State Sec ships while they were in Malign shipyards, but now we find that there were computer suicide protocols installed instead. I cannot find the earlier text to check my memory. However this gives a satisfactory answer to what Shannon did to bring about her "Oops" moment.
I think the relevant passage from the earlier books was from Torch of Freedom chapter 15; which called them "suicide charges"
Torch of Freedom: Ch. 15 wrote:And if it happens we decide never to mount the operation at all, then we simply detonate those little suicide charges none of them realize 'Manpower's' put aboard their vessels. They all blow up simultaneously in a star system where nobody else is going to know anything about it, and our potential security problem goes away. [snip]

The chance of any of their ex-StateSec puppets ever discovering the suicide charges which had been built into each of their ships during routine maintenance overhauls ranged somewhere between ridiculously minute and zero. Personally, if he'd been aboard one of those ships, he would have been going over it with a fine-toothed comb, given all of the many sets of circumstances he could think of under which it would be convenient for "Manpower" if their mercenary pirates simply . . . went away, as his father had put it. The fact that people who'd been StateSec officers didn't seem to be even considering the possibility was only one more indication, in his opinion, of how far they'd fallen since Thomas Theisman's restoration of the Old Republic had turned them into interstellar orphans.[snip]

if a single Mesan vessel with the activation codes for those suicide charges should just happen to arrive at their post-Verdant Vista rendezvous and transmit them while all those nasty genocidal StateSec fanatics were in range.
Benjamin and Albrecht Detweiler using the terms "suicide charges" and "put [them] aboard" does sound like physical explosives; but I can see it being within the bounds of conversationally sloppiness to refer to self-destruct code as a suicide charges.
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