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Attacking Darius:

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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Apr 04, 2022 4:02 pm

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tlb wrote:
Theemile wrote:One of Honor's first awards was saving some sailors from a plasma leak in a compartment on the SD Manticore (SD-01). So it's still in the ship, and leaks do still occur.

But it was not significant enough to "fry" the compartment, if Honor was able to enter and save crew personnel.

As I just said, that implies that at frequent intervals on the pipes there are artificial gravity "doors" that shut the flow going to the break or rupture. That way you only lose the plasma from a short section, rather than the entire pipe; depending on the spacing and the reaction times. Otherwise the rupture would just grow based on the plasma in the pipe and threaten the ship. So they have not ended the possibility of leaks; but have worked to mitigate the damage.

Honor's award sounded like something I should remember, but it slipped my mind. Do you know where it was mentioned, so I can remind myself?

The only mentions I see for it in the books are in OBS and SVW.
OBS when McKeon looking over his new Captain's record - "Other parts of her record-like her penchant for unorthodox tactical maneuvers, and the CGM and Monarch's Thanks she'd earned saving lives when HMS Manticore's forward power room exploded-soothed his resentment a bit"

And SVW when Young is bitching to himself about how lucky Honor's been in her career - "Like the power room disaster when she'd been tac office on Manticore. She'd gotten the CGM and Monarch's Thanks for pulling three worthless ratings out of that one"

But those references doesn't explicitly mention anything about plasma conduit; nor that the lives she saved were specifically from within the forward power room itself (as opposed to potentially being in surrounding damaged compartments)

But if there are any more hopefully someone else will chime in with any other place(s) it is mentioned. (And I'll see if I can find where I stashed my hardcopies of Jaynes and see what else they might say)
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:34 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:The only mentions I see for it in the books are in OBS and SVW.
OBS when McKeon looking over his new Captain's record - "Other parts of her record-like her penchant for unorthodox tactical maneuvers, and the CGM and Monarch's Thanks she'd earned saving lives when HMS Manticore's forward power room exploded-soothed his resentment a bit"

And SVW when Young is bitching to himself about how lucky Honor's been in her career - "Like the power room disaster when she'd been tac office on Manticore. She'd gotten the CGM and Monarch's Thanks for pulling three worthless ratings out of that one"

But those references doesn't explicitly mention anything about plasma conduit; nor that the lives she saved were specifically from within the forward power room itself (as opposed to potentially being in surrounding damaged compartments)

But if there are any more hopefully someone else will chime in with any other place(s) it is mentioned. (And I'll see if I can find where I stashed my hardcopies of Jaynes and see what else they might say)

Thanks to both you and Theemile for pointing these out. I had a vague memory of Pavel Young thinking about it, but I did not use the correct search word to find any passages. I should have used "CGM". I do not have Jayne's book.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:41 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:That seems to imply that the plasma routed around the RMN destroyers of the 1540 wasn't very hot, wasn't under that much pressure, or else was present in such miniscule amounts in the conduits that venting into compartments allowed it to rapidly cool and expand without inflicting massive or catastrophic damage. (And that the emergency systems shut off the flow of additional plasma almost instantly, preventing the compartments from being steadily sprayed with fresh hot plasma)


I think the plasma can be awfully hot and yet have this result. All you need is for the mass of plasma moving through the conduit to be reasonably small. Remember, Boyle's Law--it's going to undergo tremendous cooling when it escapes into a compartment. Also, if the bodies show burns the air was awfully hot. I'm sure most of us have experienced short exposure to air at a few hundred degrees F and escaped without even first degree burns. It's going to take third degree burns for the damage to be apparent, thus the air was much hotter.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:45 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Indeed. That was the shot that broke the Volsung's back during the first Battle of Manticore, more or less simultaneously with the gambit that destroyed one of the destroyers. The two heroes were Ensign Fenton Locatelli and Senior Chief Lorelei Osterman. It was also this action that caused the creation of the Osterman Cross, given to enlisted personnel only, and one that later Alfred Harrington would get shortly before he mustanged to officer (and a story we're still waiting to hear).

I don't think the ECM drones codenamed Lorelei are named for her.

What I don't remember is what the nature of the damage was. "Damaged piping" can mean a lot of things, not necessarily a physical crack. If the containment mechanism is damaged, when the plasma flows throw it could leak and cause the problems that cthia is referring to. It might also be that they connected systems that were never meant to be directly connected, so those pipes were getting plasma directly from the reactor or something. I'd need to reread ACTV to get the details.

(Actually it's ACTA - but reminding me it was Osterman and Locatelli was enough to fairly quickly find it)
It's pretty non-specific as to the damage. Even when HMS Phoenix took the missile all we get is Gensome ordering a missile launch on "the lead ship—that destroyer—and the portside heavy cruiser"; with HMS Phoenix being that lead destroyer - and then the scene jumps to Osterman in Forward Weapons getting knocked out and waking up to "All around her the compartment was all twisted metal and half-melted plastic, the whole thing encased in a smoky darkness that was relieved only by red indicators and the sporadic glow of occasional emergency lights."

As she goes back through the ship she finds bodies "burned instantly by burst plasma conduits"

And then (scattered across multiple scenes) this is all we get about working around / repairing the damage and the final fatal firing of the laser.

A Call to Arms wrote:Osterman said. “Looks like the capacitors have grounded, so we’re going to have to kluge some cascade relays directly into the plasma stream. Can you go get them? My left arm’s not good for much.”[snip]
By the time Ensign Locatelli returned with the cascade relays, Osterman had most of the wiring fixed, rerouted, or half-assed kluged.
Which had sounded a lot easier up front than it had turned out to be. Several of the plasma conduits had been ruptured in the attack, and though the plasma itself had long since dissipated it had left behind jagged tangles of superheated metal and plastic. Osterman sported a half dozen new burns of varying degrees, plus a couple of new cuts along her cheek and side.[snip]
“Pretty sure, Sir, yes,” Osterman said, peering at the uni-link she’d wired into the firing system.
Though in truth she wasn’t nearly as certain as she would like to be. While Phoenix’s laser firing equipment was still functional, the software had been seriously corrupted in the destroyer’s death throes.
Fortunately, she’d found an intact memory module in one of CIC’s systems that had enough space for what they needed. Invincible had downloaded replacement software, and then Osterman had removed the module, brought it back to the fire-control system, and wired it in. The system display had been cooked along with the software, but she’d managed to solve that problem by wiring in a uni-link to act as a repeater and let her keep track of what she was doing.[snip]
“Well, if they’re going to take the bait, I wish they’d get to it,” Locatelli muttered. “These things are getting hot.”
Osterman frowned. “What things?”
“These relays,” Locatelli said. “Yeah, I know they’re supposed to be wired to the heat sinks. But the couplings were shot, and most of the brackets were too warped to work. It’s okay—I’ve got them.”
“Except—” Osterman clamped down hard on the protest. Except that the whole system was about to surge with an incredible burst of energy, and if there were any gaps in the containment sheath there was a good chance Locatelli would be vaporized.
A fact that was, at this point, completely irrelevant. The instant that laser fired, something was going to fail in this jury-rigged system she and the ensign had thrown together. Whether it was the current couplings, the plasma conduits or the damn reactor itself, they were both dead.
But that was okay. That was the risk she and Locatelli had both agreed to when they signed up.
Most of the rest of their shipmates had already paid that price. Time for them to do likewise.[snip]
The uni-link signaled target acquisition. Bracing herself, Osterman pressed the firing key.
She had just enough time to see the distant battlecruiser begin to disintegrate when Phoenix’s last remaining plasma line ruptured.


About all we can glean from that is that her plasma conduits bursting must actually be, somehow, a low damage event. The bodies that were burned by them were still there (not vaporized) and were in the compartments described as being part of the "bubble of mercy" of compartments that were still airtight after the missile hit. So the plasma conduits bursting didn't vaporize the ship, didn't even blow out the hull, and seems to have left even the compartments the blow-out happened in sufficiently intact as to be able to pass through them and recognize bodies burned by the plasma.

That seems to imply that the plasma routed around the RMN destroyers of the 1540 wasn't very hot, wasn't under that much pressure, or else was present in such miniscule amounts in the conduits that venting into compartments allowed it to rapidly cool and expand without inflicting massive or catastrophic damage. (And that the emergency systems shut off the flow of additional plasma almost instantly, preventing the compartments from being steadily sprayed with fresh hot plasma)

Actually we can have a lot of fun with this, and we can glean and speculate quite a bit as well.

Why doesn't the plasma immediately incinerate everything in the immediate vicinity, especially bodies that appear to have no more than third degree burns?

First, what do we know about plasma? We know that it is one of the fundamental states of matter. Solid. Liquid. Gas. Plasma.

Plasma can be artificially generated by heating a neutral gas or subjecting it to a strong electromagnetic field.

We have had devices on Earth that use plasma. In the same article we are reminded of neon lights and our old friend the plasma globe.

Speculation time. I think the plasma stream is just a neutral gas that is heated using a strong electromagnetic field. The cascade relays might function similarly to step up transformers whose duty is to increase the temperature of the plasma as it passes across a series of these relays. These relays are probably located near the nodes where the plasma needs to be at its maximum temperature. Like when it is being used to start the reactor. Or in this case, fire energy weapons.

The text says that the capacitors have already grounded. Meaning that they have discharged. The two heroes need to get them charged.

They insert the relays directly into the plasma stream to get it to the required temperature to charge the capacitors which will fire the weapon.

So, it appears that the plasma is NOT always at its highest temperatures coursing thru the ship. It will only reach those very high temperatures when it passes across the cascade relays which will each raise the temperature higher than the previous relay in a cascade event.

Reasonable?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:32 am

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cthia wrote:Speculation time. I think the plasma stream is just a neutral gas that is heated using a strong electromagnetic field. The cascade relays might function similarly to step up transformers whose duty is to increase the temperature of the plasma as it passes across a series of these relays. These relays are probably located near the nodes where the plasma needs to be at its maximum temperature. Like when it is being used to start the reactor. Or in this case, fire energy weapons.

The text says that the capacitors have already grounded. Meaning that they have discharged. The two heroes need to get them charged.

They insert the relays directly into the plasma stream to get it to the required temperature to charge the capacitors which will fire the weapon.

So, it appears that the plasma is NOT always at its highest temperatures coursing thru the ship. It will only reach those very high temperatures when it passes across the cascade relays which will each raise the temperature higher than the previous relay in a cascade event.

Reasonable?

Saying that plasma is "not always at its highest temperatures coursing thru the ship" follows from the statement that the "cascade relays might function similarly to step up transformers whose duty is to increase the temperature of the plasma". I have no idea if that is a reasonable assumption, but I do not like one part: if the plasma is generated at the fusion reactor, then it would seem that it should be at about its highest temperature there. The cascade relays might then just keep the temperature up.

If the plasma is electrically neutral, then it cannot be contained by electromagnetic means; so it must be confined by artificial gravity (I do not know the timeline of this story. Is that possible?). But already having artificial gravity in place means that it should be easier to heat the plasma using gravitational squeezing, than with electromagnetic fields.

PS: I have absolutely no idea how a neutral plasma, no matter what temperature, could used as a power source for a weapon.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Dauntless   » Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:39 pm

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don't know about the rest of this but artificial grav was not used by most of the RMN in this time. As far as I know only HMS Casey used it, the rest of the RMN used spinning sections for gravity.

no idea how this affects things but the ships in this battle are not the ships of Honor's RMN where every ship has grav plating for artificial Gravity.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:25 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Speculation time. I think the plasma stream is just a neutral gas that is heated using a strong electromagnetic field. The cascade relays might function similarly to step up transformers whose duty is to increase the temperature of the plasma as it passes across a series of these relays. These relays are probably located near the nodes where the plasma needs to be at its maximum temperature. Like when it is being used to start the reactor. Or in this case, fire energy weapons.

The text says that the capacitors have already grounded. Meaning that they have discharged. The two heroes need to get them charged.

They insert the relays directly into the plasma stream to get it to the required temperature to charge the capacitors which will fire the weapon.

So, it appears that the plasma is NOT always at its highest temperatures coursing thru the ship. It will only reach those very high temperatures when it passes across the cascade relays which will each raise the temperature higher than the previous relay in a cascade event.

Reasonable?

Saying that plasma is "not always at its highest temperatures coursing thru the ship" follows from the statement that the "cascade relays might function similarly to step up transformers whose duty is to increase the temperature of the plasma". I have no idea if that is a reasonable assumption, but I do not like one part: if the plasma is generated at the fusion reactor, then it would seem that it should be at about its highest temperature there. The cascade relays might then just keep the temperature up.

If the plasma is electrically neutral, then it cannot be contained by electromagnetic means; so it must be confined by artificial gravity (I do not know the timeline of this story. Is that possible?). But already having artificial gravity in place means that it should be easier to heat the plasma using gravitational squeezing, than with electromagnetic fields.

PS: I have absolutely no idea how a neutral plasma, no matter what temperature, could used as a power source for a weapon.

Maybe, but not necessarily. Consider that the reactor needs hot plasma to kickstart itself. It cannot heat the plasma in which it uses to feed itself if the reactor is cold.

Therefore, some other method must be available to heat the plasma. And I see no point in having superheated plasma coursing thru the veins of the ship until it is needed at specific nodes.

That goes double for having superheated plasma just outside the reactor's containment area that could receive damage and cause a dangerous chain reaction in "arm's length" of the reactor.

Therefore, I see no need for the reactor to be pushing out super hot plasma (rather than simply the neutral gas to make it) if it is not needed so soon in the effluent flow.

Also, I am not suggesting that the electromagnetic current can contain the plasma, rather than simply super heat it, whereas pressure or some other mechanism moves it along.

The passage about the reactor possibly blowing when the surge of energy hits also verifies my worry about a long fuse acting as a trigger and leading back to the reactor.

There is a lot more that can be gleaned and posited from that textev.

Add to this what dauntless posted one klick upstream!

.
Last edited by cthia on Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Theemile   » Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:10 pm

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cthia wrote:Maybe, but not necessarily. Consider that the reactor needs hot plasma to kickstart itself. It cannot heat the plasma in which it uses to feed itself if the reactor is cold.

Therefore, some other method must be available to heat the plasma. And I see no point in having superheated plasma coursing thru the veins of the ship until it is needed at specific nodes.

That goes double for having superheated plasma just outside the reactor's containment area that could have a chain reaction in "arm's length" of the reactor. Therefore, I see no need for the reactor to be pushing out super hot plasma (rather than simply the neutral gas to make it) if it is not needed so soon in the effluent flow.

Also, I am not suggesting that the electromagnetic current can contain the plasma, rather than simply super heat it, whereas pressure or some other mechanism moves it along.

The passage about the reactor possibly blowing when the surge of energy hits also verifies my worry about a long fuse acting as a trigger and leading back to the reactor.

There is a lot more that can be gleaned and posited from that textev.

Add to this what dauntless posted one klick upstream!


Fusion reactors might need "seed" fusion plasma from another source to restart - it might have a specific conduit for connecting to another ship or station for reactor restart. Which also implies "Cross Decking" between reactors so they can shut down for maintenance, and restart by another shipborne reactor.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:20 pm

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Dauntless wrote:don't know about the rest of this but artificial grav was not used by most of the RMN in this time. As far as I know only HMS Casey used it, the rest of the RMN used spinning sections for gravity.

no idea how this affects things but the ships in this battle are not the ships of Honor's RMN where every ship has grav plating for artificial Gravity.

The ships back then had some kind of fusion plant; but it may not have utilized the gravitically compressed confinement of the GRAVMAK designs of Honor's era.

Though obviously even the ships without grav plates still utilized grav manipulation in the form of their wedges and sidewalls.


(Also, random aside, while double-checking I had the term GRAVMAK correct I stumbled back across the HoS entry on the Grayson's old Faith-class System Defense Units. I'd forgotten, or missed, how much those (and the studies into modernizing them with Manticoran tech) inspired the Shrike-class LACs.
But, of possible interest to this sub-thread, it specifically mentions them using "plasma accelerators" driven by their fission plant "for gravitic conversion" (which I think means powering the impeller nodes) and to power their energy mounts)
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:25 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:Maybe, but not necessarily. Consider that the reactor needs hot plasma to kickstart itself. It cannot heat the plasma in which it uses to feed itself if the reactor is cold.

Therefore, some other method must be available to heat the plasma. And I see no point in having superheated plasma coursing thru the veins of the ship until it is needed at specific nodes.

That goes double for having superheated plasma just outside the reactor's containment area that could have a chain reaction in "arm's length" of the reactor. Therefore, I see no need for the reactor to be pushing out super hot plasma (rather than simply the neutral gas to make it) if it is not needed so soon in the effluent flow.

Also, I am not suggesting that the electromagnetic current can contain the plasma, rather than simply super heat it, whereas pressure or some other mechanism moves it along.

The passage about the reactor possibly blowing when the surge of energy hits also verifies my worry about a long fuse acting as a trigger and leading back to the reactor.

There is a lot more that can be gleaned and posited from that textev.

Add to this what dauntless posted one klick upstream!


Fusion reactors might need "seed" fusion plasma from another source to restart - it might have a specific conduit for connecting to another ship or station for reactor restart. Which also implies "Cross Decking" between reactors so they can shut down for maintenance, and restart by another shipborne reactor.

It is certainly possible that the seed plasma needs to come from another reactor. But if that is true then it means that the smaller ships which only have two reactor's can literally end up dead in the water needing a jump from another ship.

Does a warship have a hood (bonnet for my friends across the pond) that it can raise indicating car damage and need of assistance? Got any jumping cables? LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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