Attacking Darius:

tlb wrote:

kzt wrote:No, there is a lot 'this does not follow' in some of the deeper issues of the honorverse.

I do not disagree with your reasoning or figures; but I would like to know to what point you are specifically saying "NO".

I assume that it is the suggestion that the plasma can be low temperature, based on how hot you say it actually needs to be.

PS: It occurs to me that another problem with the low temperature plasma (that is heated up for use) is that the plasma is the only major source of power on the ship. So what drives the machine that heats up the plasma for use, is it electricity? There does need to be electricity generated at some point, to power all the electronics (you cannot feed plasma into molecular circuitry). That would seem reasonable, but it has two problems. I have already stated the first, it eliminates the need for plasma pipes; since plasma can be generated at the site on demand. The second is that there are inefficiencies in every process that changes one form of energy into another; so it would be more efficient to use the electricity directly in the weapon (or whatever, because that eliminates one conversion process).

kzt wrote:It's contradictory to say we'll lower the temp and pressure. You have plasma at a density of 160 tons per cubic meter (which is immensely dense - 14 times as dense as lead) at say a mere 50 million degrees coming out of the reactor and being piped everywhere inside the ship. The reason you use this instead electricity is that you need absurd power density.

So a superconductor handling say 500,000V and 5000 amps is far to little. You need vastly more power and mere 2.5GW power cable. How do you provide this without enormous power density? And that means extremely hot and dense plasma.

Lets say you dilute it to mere 15 million K, where the fusion reaction is putting out very little power but might help make up for loses. I have no good info as to how fast hydrogen/helium plasma at the pressure needed to keep it a density 14x that of lead might expand, but I would expect it to be several KM/sec.

It will cool as it expands, but since the starting temperature is roughly that of a nuclear weapon, you can expect a few things. Like the x-rays emitted by the cooling gas. Which turns the air into an x-ray opaque plasma and heats it up a whole lot. So essentially, you get the fireball and shockwave of a nuclear weapon going off inside your ship. Luckily those close enough to get a dangerous radiation dose are almost certainly torn to shreds and vaporized.

Very dangerous, you go first.

We have all experienced the YIKES FACTOR supplied by kzt's post when first reading about plasma in the HV. I am still shocked.

However, even though there is a lot that we currently know about plasma, I am willing to concede to the inverse of that. The same undoubtedly applies to the hardware and to the materials which are used to handle plasma as well.


Consider these things in the HV ...

Cascade relays that are kluged directly into the plasma stream. Tlb, in the HV it seems that molecular circuitry can be interfaced directly to plasma. I can believe that. We already use plasma in some of our current products on Earth. But I cannot accept that this plasma is at its maximum temperature during the emergency kluge.


Sheath
“Except—” Osterman clamped down hard on the protest. Except that the whole system was about to surge with an incredible burst of energy, and if there were any gaps in the containment sheath there was a good chance Locatelli would be vaporized.


Plasma Accelerator

Jonathan_S wrote:But, of possible interest to this sub-thread, it specifically mentions them using "plasma accelerators" driven by their fission plant "for gravitic conversion" (which I think means powering the impeller nodes) and to power their energy mounts)

cthia wrote:You may have just supplied the method of propulsion for the superheated plasma, instead of pressure.

Now let's mosey on down to our friendly neighborhood Wikipedia ...

Plasma acceleration. Do absorb the section labeled Concept.

Debye Sheath.

It is obvious that David has done his homework, and consulted with others who did their homework as well. What I am saying is that the HV houses many things that are possible in light of what we already know.

cthia wrote:Cascade relays that are kluged directly into the plasma stream. Tlb, in the HV it seems that molecular circuitry can be interfaced directly to plasma. I can believe that. We already use plasma in some of our current products on Earth. But I cannot accept that this plasma is at its maximum temperature during the emergency kluge.

I do not know what a cascade relay is in the situation described. When I was talking molecular circuitry, I was considering the sort of thing talked about in chapter 22 of Echoes of Honor:

Peep installations tended to be bigger than Manticoran ones, largely because they used more plug-in/pull-out components. Peep techs weren't up to the sort of in-place maintenance Manticoran technicians routinely performed, so the practice, wherever possible, was to simply yank a malfunctioning component and send it to some central servicing depot where properly trained people could deal with it. Unhappily for the People's Navy, that assumed one had a replacement unit handy to plug into its place when you pulled it, and that had been a major reason for the soaring Peep unserviceability rates of the first two or three years of the war. The PN had been structured around short, intensive campaigns with plenty of time to refit between gobbling up each successive bite of someone else's real estate. Their logistics pipeline had been designed to meet those needs, and it simply hadn't been up to hauling the requisite number of replacement components back and forth between the front-line systems and the rear area service and maintenance depots over an extended period of active operations.
That, unfortunately, was one problem they seemed to be getting on top of, Tremaine reflected while he watched Harkness pull out a test kit and begin checking circuits. They were finally getting their logistics establishment up to something approaching Allied standards, and—
"Uh-oh." Harkness' mutter pulled Tremaine out of his thoughts and he peered up past the burly senior chief's shoulders. "Looks like we've got us a little problem in the transponder itself, Sir."
"How big a 'little problem'?" Tremaine demanded tersely.
"All I can tell you for certain right this minute is that it ain't working, Sir," Harkness replied. "I won't know more till we pull it, but between you and me, it don't look real good. The problem's in the encryption module." He tapped the component in question and shrugged. "This here's an almost solid cube of molycircs, and I didn't see no molecular electronics shop aboard either of these two birds."

These boards supporting molycircs are obviously not bathed in plasma, since the reactor was not even running for much of the time when the shuttles shifted location; so I expect that they run off of ordinary electricity.

King Roger III's grav ski is also reported to have molycircs; again no plasma involved.

But what electronic products that use plasma were you thinking about?

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Cascade relays that are kluged directly into the plasma stream. Tlb, in the HV it seems that molecular circuitry can be interfaced directly to plasma. I can believe that. We already use plasma in some of our current products on Earth. But I cannot accept that this plasma is at its maximum temperature during the emergency kluge.

I do not know what a cascade relay is in the situation described. When I was talking molecular circuitry, I was considering the sort of thing talked about in chapter 22 of Echoes of Honor:

Peep installations tended to be bigger than Manticoran ones, largely because they used more plug-in/pull-out components. Peep techs weren't up to the sort of in-place maintenance Manticoran technicians routinely performed, so the practice, wherever possible, was to simply yank a malfunctioning component and send it to some central servicing depot where properly trained people could deal with it. Unhappily for the People's Navy, that assumed one had a replacement unit handy to plug into its place when you pulled it, and that had been a major reason for the soaring Peep unserviceability rates of the first two or three years of the war. The PN had been structured around short, intensive campaigns with plenty of time to refit between gobbling up each successive bite of someone else's real estate. Their logistics pipeline had been designed to meet those needs, and it simply hadn't been up to hauling the requisite number of replacement components back and forth between the front-line systems and the rear area service and maintenance depots over an extended period of active operations.
That, unfortunately, was one problem they seemed to be getting on top of, Tremaine reflected while he watched Harkness pull out a test kit and begin checking circuits. They were finally getting their logistics establishment up to something approaching Allied standards, and—
"Uh-oh." Harkness' mutter pulled Tremaine out of his thoughts and he peered up past the burly senior chief's shoulders. "Looks like we've got us a little problem in the transponder itself, Sir."
"How big a 'little problem'?" Tremaine demanded tersely.
"All I can tell you for certain right this minute is that it ain't working, Sir," Harkness replied. "I won't know more till we pull it, but between you and me, it don't look real good. The problem's in the encryption module." He tapped the component in question and shrugged. "This here's an almost solid cube of molycircs, and I didn't see no molecular electronics shop aboard either of these two birds."

These boards supporting molycircs are obviously not bathed in plasma, since the reactor was not even running for much of the time when the shuttles shifted location; so I expect that they run off of ordinary electricity.

King Roger III's grav ski is also reported to have molycircs; again no plasma involved.

But what electronic products that use plasma were you thinking about?

The ordinary electricity is supplied by the plasma. That is one of the characteristics of plasma. The cube can have plugs that interface into an electrical outlet, or can be plugged directly into a plasma stream.

If you plug directly into the plasma stream, you need the 3-prong EU plugs. LOL

Current products that use plasma are the plasma globe (plasma ball) and neon lights. BTW, in my mind's eye, I see both the filaments in the neon lights and the Tesla coil in the plasma ball acting as the precursors to HV cascade relays.


Note this article that I came upon years ago that drives a lot of my imagination about the use of plasma in the HV.

How plasma balls work. Note the characteristics of plasma. Thermal and non-thermal plasma.

Theemile wrote:The Connies were quad engine planes - I believe that was the comment of the Folker Tri-motor planes (or was it the Ford?)

That was the point: the reliability of piston engines was so low that a quad-engine aeroplane frequently found itself with one faulty engine, thereby completing its flight with three. Hence "reliable tri-engine"... out of four it started with.

I don't know if it was the Connie this was talked about. Wikipedia says the Boeing 377 was plagued by engine issues, so that might have been the one.

cthia wrote:Current products that use plasma are the plasma globe (plasma ball) and neon lights. BTW, in my mind's eye, I see both the filaments in the neon lights and the Tesla coil in the plasma ball acting as the precursors to HV cascade relays.

Note this article that I came upon years ago that drives a lot of my imagination about the use of plasma in the HV.

Neither plasma balls nor neon lights use the plasma as the power source; instead electricity is used to generate the plasma. The article is talking about blood plasma:

Blood plasma is a yellowish liquid that makes up around 55% of blood. Aside from water, which makes up around 91–92% of blood plasma, the main components of blood plasma are: Plasma proteins: These proteins, which include globulin and albumin, help control pressure within a person's circulatory system.

Theemile wrote:The Connies were quad engine planes - I believe that was the comment of the Folker Tri-motor planes (or was it the Ford?)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That was the point: the reliability of piston engines was so low that a quad-engine aeroplane frequently found itself with one faulty engine, thereby completing its flight with three. Hence "reliable tri-engine"... out of four it started with.

I don't know if it was the Connie this was talked about. Wikipedia says the Boeing 377 was plagued by engine issues, so that might have been the one.

It is very possible that someone made that statement as a joke about the Constellation: the particular engines used were so bleeding edge, that they were very touchy. The same thing could probably be said about the Boeing 377. I believe the B-29 also had engine difficulties.

However piston engines during WW2 were very reliable in general: consider the P-51D fighter that accompanied the bombers to Berlin and back. Or the engine in the P-47 that could bring the plane back to base with a piston head shot off.

Some of that started with improvement work by Ford and others that made the Ford Tri-motor famed for reliability.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Current products that use plasma are the plasma globe (plasma ball) and neon lights. BTW, in my mind's eye, I see both the filaments in the neon lights and the Tesla coil in the plasma ball acting as the precursors to HV cascade relays.

Note this article that I came upon years ago that drives a lot of my imagination about the use of plasma in the HV.

Neither plasma balls nor neon lights use the plasma as the power source; instead electricity is used to generate the plasma. The article is talking about blood plasma:

Blood plasma is a yellowish liquid that makes up around 55% of blood. Aside from water, which makes up around 91–92% of blood plasma, the main components of blood plasma are: Plasma proteins: These proteins, which include globulin and albumin, help control pressure within a person's circulatory system.

Yes, electricity is used to create the plasma, but we know that plasma can be used as energy storage. I consider this as a precursor to HV technology, in baby steps. The cost of plasma today is prohibitive, but on HV ships that isn't an object. But plasma storage (the plasma capacitors in the HV) has distinct advantages which we have discussed fully.

What is being done with the liquid plasma of blood, which seems to have many of the characteristics of plasma may also be a precursor to HV tech.

I consumed a lot about plasma way back when when we were discussing plasma capacitors, restarting reactors etc. That is when I came across the application of blood plasma to science, and its many implications.

Also interesting ... from link ...

In addition, plasma can also artificially be created by supplying energy to a gas. A distinction can be made between fusion plasmas and gas discharge plasmas. Fusion plasmas operate at millions of degrees to mimic the conditions of the Sun in order to realize nuclear fusion as a future energy source. Gas discharge plasmas, on the other hand, operate at much lower temperature, even close to room temperature, and are created by applying electrical energy to a gas. This explains why they are potentially interesting for use as renewable electricity.

Gas discharge plasmas could be used in conjunction with fusion plasmas. My point being when plasma is brought up in the HV, it needs to be explicit in which type of plasma it is at each stage of a process. One form of plasma could simply be the trigger for the other.

cthia wrote:Gas discharge plasmas could be used in conjunction with fusion plasmas. My point being when plasma is brought up in the HV, it needs to be explicit in which type of plasma it is at each stage of a process. One form of plasma could simply be the trigger for the other.

Except the only time we see plasma in the Honorverse is when it is used to convey high energy and gas discharge plasmas are not high energy; because of inefficiencies they do not have all the energy used to create them (that is true of all energy conversions; but here the creation source is electricity, which is already in a more useful form).

Can a gas discharge plasma be used to start a fusion reactor? We have not gotten any feedback on whether a laser initiated fusion reactor can be used to start a gravity initiated fusion reactor, and the laser initiated plasma is more energetic. My guess is that so much more energy has to be put into the gas discharge plasma, that the process could have started with cold hydrogen and skipped the gas discharge altogether.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Gas discharge plasmas could be used in conjunction with fusion plasmas. My point being when plasma is brought up in the HV, it needs to be explicit in which type of plasma it is at each stage of a process. One form of plasma could simply be the trigger for the other.

Except the only time we see plasma in the Honorverse is when it is used to convey high energy and gas discharge plasmas are not high energy; because of inefficiencies they do not have all the energy used to create them (that is true of all energy conversions; but here the creation source is electricity, which is already in a more useful form).

Can a gas discharge plasma be used to start a fusion reactor? We have not gotten any feedback on whether a laser initiated fusion reactor can be used to start a gravity initiated fusion reactor, and the laser initiated plasma is more energetic. My guess is that so much more energy has to be put into the gas discharge plasma, that the process could have started with cold hydrogen and skipped the gas discharge altogether.

I expect yes, since we know that chemical explosions are used as the primary for nuclear weapons.

tlb wrote:Can a gas discharge plasma be used to start a fusion reactor?

cthia wrote:I expect yes, since we know that chemical explosions are used as the primary for nuclear weapons.

Saying that a chemical explosion is the primary for a nuclear weapon shows that you might not have a full appreciation of what is going on. An H-bomb (fusion) is triggered by the heat and pressure from an A-bomb (fission). It is true that a chemical explosion is used to push the fissionable material into a critical state, but that just a matter of convenience and timing. If you were suicidal, you could take two lumps of fissionable material, one in each hand, and clap your hands together to create an explosion (provided each lump was more than half critical). However you might die before they hit together because of the increased radiation as they came closer to each other. The "Little Boy" bomb solved this by making one lump a bullet and the other a target; detonation was achieved by firing the bullet into the target. Again the explosion was a matter of convenience, a bomb could be created just by having the bullet get pushed into the target by impact with the ground (however this increases the chance of a dud, if the bomb does not fall correctly).

"Little Boy" had a limit on its yield, because neither lump could be of critical mass; "Fat Man" solved that limitation by creating an alloy of the fissionable metal with a light metal, chosen so the result could not reach critical density at atmospheric pressure. This was molded into a sphere and a uniform explosive blanket compressed the ball into the critical density to achieve detonation. The point of all this that fissionable material wants to fission, the only thing preventing that is "social distancing"; the explosion is just there to throw the parts together.

Can a gas discharge plasma ignite a fusion reactor? Only if you put it together with so much other energy, that the presence of the gas discharge was negligible.

PS: There is scientific evidence of a natural fission reactor two billion years ago in what is now Africa; fortunately not concentrated enough for an explosion: Oklo, natural fission reactor