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Attacking Darius:

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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:02 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:Note, also, that GA energy range should exceed spider energy range. Energy weapons are subject to lightspeed targeting limits and given the drive performance longer range shots will generally miss a zigging target. Spider performance is lower, it can't zig as well, it can be hit from farther. And even if damage is low at such ranges the mass of firepower will still add up--even if you don't take it out anything on the side facing you is in a world of hurt--it's not going to be able to shoot back.

kzt wrote:You are on a golf course surrounded by a thick pine forest. Somewhere in that forest is a well camouflaged sniper with a suppressed precision rifle. He might be prone on the ground or high up in a tree. You have a machine gun with a million rounds of ammo.

The start signal for the this competition is when the camouflaged sniper starts shooting at you.

How will this likely end?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Not a very good analogy because people's reaction times are far slower than sniper round travel times, whereas it's possible to see something in a space warfare engagement, react to it and fire at it before it hits you. For the analogy to be good, it would need to be possible to hit the sniper's bullet with another bullet, if you could see it coming. Instead of a sniper, it might be more analogous to a mortar team: you don't know where they are, but once you detect the incoming shell (if you're good), you can pinpoint where it came from and you may be able to fire at it before it strikes.

To continue this thread, we need to bring in some lessons from Galton and that would mean spoilers. So I'm holding off a few more weeks.

Note that they were talking about energy weapons, which cannot be seen (except in a dusty environment), and so it is meaningless to talk about hitting one bullet with another bullet.

The point of the analogy was that the spider could shoot an energy beam without being seen, unless it was in range of active radar.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:52 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:Note, also, that GA energy range should exceed spider energy range. Energy weapons are subject to lightspeed targeting limits and given the drive performance longer range shots will generally miss a zigging target. Spider performance is lower, it can't zig as well, it can be hit from farther. And even if damage is low at such ranges the mass of firepower will still add up--even if you don't take it out anything on the side facing you is in a world of hurt--it's not going to be able to shoot back.

I think the trouble will be figuring out where to shoot in the first place.

But if it does come down to an energy range fight, GA energy range is also likely to exceed spider energy range because (from most angles) the GA ships are protected by wedge or sidewalls. Even if the spider has a sidewall that can be used without tying into a wedge (like a bubble sidewall) they can't pop up any sidewalls within sensor range of the GA without giving away its location. And Honorverse energy mounts double their effective range when hitting a target that's not protected by sidewalls.

So a spider trying to sneak in close enough for an energy range ambush is probably very quickly dead if it's detected before engaging.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:23 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:I don't see why it should be so hard to attack Darius.

The stinking strategy of the SLN has gotten all over you. :D

Loren Pectel wrote:What's hard is finding it.

What is hard is finding it. What will be harder is finding their ships and defenses.

Loren Pectel wrote:The GA is going to show up loaded for T-Rex.

That may be great, if T-Rex was guaranteed to show up at the party. It goes with the point I tried to make upstream. It is difficult to pack for the weather far far away without a weather report. Careful not to pack too lightly or for the wrong weather. The problem with showing up loaded for bear is when you find yourself facing a mass of charging rhino.


I just received the book yesterday.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:16 am

cthia
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Jonathan_S wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Note, also, that GA energy range should exceed spider energy range. Energy weapons are subject to lightspeed targeting limits and given the drive performance longer range shots will generally miss a zigging target. Spider performance is lower, it can't zig as well, it can be hit from farther. And even if damage is low at such ranges the mass of firepower will still add up--even if you don't take it out anything on the side facing you is in a world of hurt--it's not going to be able to shoot back.

I think the trouble will be figuring out where to shoot in the first place.

From my past posts and threads you know I disagree with that. For one, it is quite presumptuous. Two, it completely overlooks the Spider's stealth. What is the "heretofore unimaginably insane short distances" that a Spider may engage. At a Spider's engagement ranges the Captain's 2-yr-old grandson can hit the target. "Pawpaw, I destroyed the big bad Man-tick-corans. Honest, they were there a minute ago. But now they're gone."

You can hit the broad side of a barn blindfolded if you're sitting right on top of it.

Jonathan_S wrote:But if it does come down to an energy range fight, GA energy range is also likely to exceed spider energy range because (from most angles) the GA ships are protected by wedge or sidewalls.

Even if the spider has a sidewall that can be used without tying into a wedge (like a bubble sidewall) they can't pop up any sidewalls within sensor range of the GA without giving away its location. And Honorverse energy mounts double their effective range when hitting a target that's not protected by sidewalls.

So a spider trying to sneak in close enough for an energy range ambush is probably very quickly dead if it's detected before engaging.

That word "likely" may get a lot of your spacers killed. I posited long ago that the LD will employ a state of the art targeting system.

Something else that may be overlooked. The Spider's detection range of GA ships could actually be better since the sensors may not be inundated with the sensor deadening effect of wedges. Spider sensors will be completely free from the clutter and noise surrounding wedges. It may be analogous to trying to look at the heavens thru the panoply of city lights. Instead of enjoying the view from a secluded mountain top which is completely devoid of the glare from the hustle and bustle of "street life." If true, it may also aid in targeting.

Also, why would you presume that an entity who has obviously been working out in the weight room with energy weapons be "below" your curve?

At any rate, about this constantly suggested tactic of zigzagging in a mine field. Has anyone actually seen that work?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:48 am

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cthia wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Note, also, that GA energy range should exceed spider energy range. Energy weapons are subject to lightspeed targeting limits and given the drive performance longer range shots will generally miss a zigging target. Spider performance is lower, it can't zig as well, it can be hit from farther. And even if damage is low at such ranges the mass of firepower will still add up--even if you don't take it out anything on the side facing you is in a world of hurt--it's not going to be able to shoot back.
Jonathan_S wrote:I think the trouble will be figuring out where to shoot in the first place.

From my past posts and threads you know I disagree with that. For one, it is quite presumptuous. Two, it completely overlooks the Spider's stealth. What is the "heretofore unimaginably insane short distances" that a Spider may engage. At a Spider's engagement ranges the Captain's 2-yr-old grandson can hit the target. "Pawpaw, I destroyed the big bad Man-tick-corans. Honest, they were there a minute ago. But now they're gone."

You can hit the broad side of a barn blindfolded if you're sitting right on top of it.
You misunderstood my point here; I was saying that the problem was for the GA figuring out where to shoot (because of the Spider's stealth).

cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:But if it does come down to an energy range fight, GA energy range is also likely to exceed spider energy range because (from most angles) the GA ships are protected by wedge or sidewalls.

Even if the spider has a sidewall that can be used without tying into a wedge (like a bubble sidewall) they can't pop up any sidewalls within sensor range of the GA without giving away its location. And Honorverse energy mounts double their effective range when hitting a target that's not protected by sidewalls.

So a spider trying to sneak in close enough for an energy range ambush is probably very quickly dead if it's detected before engaging.

That word "likely" may get a lot of your spacers killed. I posited long ago that the LD will employ a state of the art targeting system.

Something else that may be overlooked. The Spider's detection range of GA ships could actually be better since the sensors may not be inundated with the sensor deadening effect of wedges. Spider sensors will be completely free from the clutter and noise surrounding wedges. It may be analogous to trying to look at the heavens thru the panoply of city lights. Instead of enjoying the view from a secluded mountain top which is completely devoid of the glare from the hustle and bustle of "street life." If true, it may also aid in targeting.

Also, why would you presume that an entity who has obviously been working out in the weight room with energy weapons be "below" your curve?

At any rate, about this constantly suggested tactic of zigzagging in a mine field. Has anyone actually seen that work?
Better sensors don't help your graser pierce a sidewall (and nothing can let a graser pierce a wedge). The spider ship's low acceleration make it very difficult to maneuver to one of the narrow vulnerable cones from which they can get line of sight to the ship's hull without an intervening sidewall (or bow, stern, or buckler wall).

My point was the GA ships have sidewalls (which just flat out block energy weapons from beyond about 500,000 km) and the Spider doesn't (which, if detected and hit, makes it vulnerable to energy weapons damage up to 1,000,000 km) -- but that that range advantage is likely to be only academic as the difficulty is detecting the spider in the first place.

(But you're right that I disagree with you about the best use of the spider ship. I see them as a sniper; sneaking around slowly, undetectably, and taking advantage of their long range invisible graser torps; Or deploying minefields of Cataphract pods. Sneaking in close could let you land a devastating body blow; but it's a high risk maneuver as if you're detected before reaching energy range -- which spider captains start worrying about an several times energy range -- you're more vulnerable to GA missiles than they are to your Cataphracts. Or if some GA forces survive your short range attack you've exposed your location to retribution fire)
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:06 pm

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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:But if it does come down to an energy range fight, GA energy range is also likely to exceed spider energy range because (from most angles) the GA ships are protected by wedge or sidewalls.

Even if the spider has a sidewall that can be used without tying into a wedge (like a bubble sidewall) they can't pop up any sidewalls within sensor range of the GA without giving away its location. And Honorverse energy mounts double their effective range when hitting a target that's not protected by sidewalls.

So a spider trying to sneak in close enough for an energy range ambush is probably very quickly dead if it's detected before engaging.

That word "likely" may get a lot of your spacers killed. I posited long ago that the LD will employ a state of the art targeting system.

Something else that may be overlooked. The Spider's detection range of GA ships could actually be better since the sensors may not be inundated with the sensor deadening effect of wedges. Spider sensors will be completely free from the clutter and noise surrounding wedges. It may be analogous to trying to look at the heavens thru the panoply of city lights. Instead of enjoying the view from a secluded mountain top which is completely devoid of the glare from the hustle and bustle of "street life." If true, it may also aid in targeting.

Also, why would you presume that an entity who has obviously been working out in the weight room with energy weapons be "below" your curve?


Jonathan_S wrote:Better sensors don't help your graser pierce a sidewall (and nothing can let a graser pierce a wedge). The spider ship's low acceleration make it very difficult to maneuver to one of the narrow vulnerable cones from which they can get line of sight to the ship's hull without an intervening sidewall (or bow, stern, or buckler wall).

Agreed, better sensors won't help a graser penetrate a sidewall, but it may assist with hitting the target from a longer than normal distance. If developed, 3-second firing energy weapons may serve to bring down sidewalls.

Jonathan_S wrote:My point was the GA ships have sidewalls (which just flat out block energy weapons from beyond about 500,000 km) and the Spider doesn't (which, if detected and hit, makes it vulnerable to energy weapons damage up to 1,000,000 km) -- but that that range advantage is likely to be only academic as the difficulty is detecting the spider in the first place.

But will it block extended firing energy weapons. It may. But at what range.

Jonathan_S wrote:(But you're right that I disagree with you about the best use of the spider ship. I see them as a sniper; sneaking around slowly, undetectably, and taking advantage of their long range invisible graser torps; Or deploying minefields of Cataphract pods. Sneaking in close could let you land a devastating body blow; but it's a high risk maneuver as if you're detected before reaching energy range -- which spider captains start worrying about an several times energy range -- you're more vulnerable to GA missiles than they are to your Cataphracts. Or if some GA forces survive your short range attack you've exposed your location to retribution fire)

I posted in another thread that I see the Spiders as multipurpose attack ships depending on the mission, much like their inspiration of yore. Submarines.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:54 pm

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cthia wrote:Agreed, better sensors won't help a graser penetrate a sidewall, but it may assist with hitting the target from a longer than normal distance. If developed, 3-second firing energy weapons may serve to bring down sidewalls.


Looks like they didn't. I'm not treating this as a spoiler because there's nothing definitive in the book; it's only my inference. I'll wait for you to reach the end of the book to discuss this.

There's also another aspect about detection that we'll need to take into consideration.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:38 pm

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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Note, also, that GA energy range should exceed spider energy range. Energy weapons are subject to lightspeed targeting limits and given the drive performance longer range shots will generally miss a zigging target. Spider performance is lower, it can't zig as well, it can be hit from farther. And even if damage is low at such ranges the mass of firepower will still add up--even if you don't take it out anything on the side facing you is in a world of hurt--it's not going to be able to shoot back.

You are on a golf course surrounded by a thick pine forest. Somewhere in that forest is a well camouflaged sniper with a suppressed precision rifle. He might be prone on the ground or high up in a tree. You have a machine gun with a million rounds of ammo.

The start signal for the this competition is when the camouflaged sniper starts shooting at you.

How will this likely end?


You're running across the golf course erratically. The sniper will most likely miss.

Graser torps would be really deadly in an ambush situation, not against a fleet at battle stations.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:42 pm

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tlb wrote:The point of the analogy was that the spider could shoot an energy beam without being seen, unless it was in range of active radar.


Energy beams at that power probably will be seen. Space isn't a perfect vacuum, some of those photons will hit atoms.

Neither is the sniper invisible when firing these days. Shot finder systems exist that report quite accurately where a shot came from.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:44 pm

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cthia wrote:From my past posts and threads you know I disagree with that. For one, it is quite presumptuous. Two, it completely overlooks the Spider's stealth. What is the "heretofore unimaginably insane short distances" that a Spider may engage. At a Spider's engagement ranges the Captain's 2-yr-old grandson can hit the target. "Pawpaw, I destroyed the big bad Man-tick-corans. Honest, they were there a minute ago. But now they're gone."


The spider is slow--a successful engagement on a fleet moving around randomly would take extreme luck. The spider is good for recon and good for sneaking into enemy systems, it is not good at defending a star system against MDMs.
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