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Attacking Darius:

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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:07 pm

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cthia wrote:
munroburton wrote:Grand Fleet lost about 20 capital ships in order to take the only star system fortified more heavily than Manticore's own Binary System.
Do pardon this snip from another thread.

Say what??? Is this validation from a peer? And that was Galton.


There's no way Galton deserves that comparison. Manticore, even before the 4-stage system defence missiles with Mycroft was defended by hundreds of SDs and LACs, with MDMs. Given that Galton did have MDMs (even if 2 stages only), there's no point in Manticore's history where Galton's defensive capabilities could be equated. At best, it's the few months while the technology existed and was being rolled out in 1911.

And, of course, there are other systems heavily defended like Manticore, just probably not as strongly: Haven, Yeltsin's Star and New Berlin, to name three.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by munroburton   » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:30 am

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cthia wrote:
munroburton wrote:Grand Fleet lost about 20 capital ships in order to take the only star system fortified more heavily than Manticore's own Binary System.
Do pardon this snip from another thread.

Say what??? Is this validation from a peer? And that was Galton.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:There's no way Galton deserves that comparison. Manticore, even before the 4-stage system defence missiles with Mycroft was defended by hundreds of SDs and LACs, with MDMs. Given that Galton did have MDMs (even if 2 stages only), there's no point in Manticore's history where Galton's defensive capabilities could be equated. At best, it's the few months while the technology existed and was being rolled out in 1911.

And, of course, there are other systems heavily defended like Manticore, just probably not as strongly: Haven, Yeltsin's Star and New Berlin, to name three.


I was perhaps exaggerating, but not by much.

Two instances of "fortified" from TEiF:
Every time he visited the system, Detweiler thought of the peculiar logic that had led to Galton’s creation. No, not to its creation, but to its…repurposing. It was simultaneously the crudest—and yet, perhaps, the most cunning—of the Alignment’s strategies. Build one of the most powerfully fortified star systems in the human-occupied galaxy, make it the Alignment’s primary industrial and command node outside the Mesa System itself, central to all of its goals and purpose…
<snip>
They knew, for example, that the system which had been dubbed “El Dorado” had over thirty orbital fortresses, the smallest of them as large as the fortresses covering the Manticoran Wormhole Junction. They knew there were at least fifty superdreadnoughts to support those fortresses, although the drones, confined to the outer reaches of the star system in the name of stealthiness, had been unable to tell them how many—if any—of them were pod-laying designs. Those same drones had observed what looked like exercises by multiple squadrons of LACs, and they’d also detected at least one clump of missile pods. That had been purely fortuitous—and statistically highly improbable—because the drone in question had passed close enough to spot the pods visually. Which raised the question of exactly what pods which looked suspiciously like the Solarian League Navy’s Hastas were doing that far out-system.
One thing they could be certain of was that there had to be thousands of pods the drones hadn’t detected.
They also knew they were looking at a system that was even more heavily industrialized than they’d anticipated. The drones had confirmed Exploratrice’s initial estimate: there were almost a dozen massive industrial platforms, served by an entire fleet of asteroid extraction ships and orbital smelters, spaced around the outermost asteroid belt, while gas-mining tankers shuttled back and forth between the inner system and El Dorado-V, a super-giant barely short of a brown star.
Under the circumstances, they were fortunate El Dorado wasn’t fortified even more heavily, and all of them knew it. Unfortunately, there were still all too many things they didn’t know.


Despite Oyster Bay sparing them, and two massive fleets trying to conquer the Manticore system in short succession, its forts haven't seen action yet. That's because the RMN was usually powerful enough to maintain a strong defense whilst also carrying out offensive operations.

The Galton Navy appears to have been large enough to enter the top 10 of navies. It's just too bad for them that they got attacked by the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th largest navies simultaneously.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:28 am

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cthia wrote:
munroburton wrote:Grand Fleet lost about 20 capital ships in order to take the only star system fortified more heavily than Manticore's own Binary System.
Do pardon this snip from another thread.

Say what??? Is this validation from a peer? And that was Galton.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:There's no way Galton deserves that comparison. Manticore, even before the 4-stage system defence missiles with Mycroft was defended by hundreds of SDs and LACs, with MDMs. Given that Galton did have MDMs (even if 2 stages only), there's no point in Manticore's history where Galton's defensive capabilities could be equated. At best, it's the few months while the technology existed and was being rolled out in 1911.

And, of course, there are other systems heavily defended like Manticore, just probably not as strongly: Haven, Yeltsin's Star and New Berlin, to name three.


munroburton wrote:I was perhaps exaggerating, but not by much.

Two instances of "fortified" from TEiF:
Every time he visited the system, Detweiler thought of the peculiar logic that had led to Galton’s creation. No, not to its creation, but to its…repurposing. It was simultaneously the crudest—and yet, perhaps, the most cunning—of the Alignment’s strategies. Build one of the most powerfully fortified star systems in the human-occupied galaxy, make it the Alignment’s primary industrial and command node outside the Mesa System itself, central to all of its goals and purpose…
<snip>
They knew, for example, that the system which had been dubbed “El Dorado” had over thirty orbital fortresses, the smallest of them as large as the fortresses covering the Manticoran Wormhole Junction. They knew there were at least fifty superdreadnoughts to support those fortresses, although the drones, confined to the outer reaches of the star system in the name of stealthiness, had been unable to tell them how many—if any—of them were pod-laying designs. Those same drones had observed what looked like exercises by multiple squadrons of LACs, and they’d also detected at least one clump of missile pods. That had been purely fortuitous—and statistically highly improbable—because the drone in question had passed close enough to spot the pods visually. Which raised the question of exactly what pods which looked suspiciously like the Solarian League Navy’s Hastas were doing that far out-system.
One thing they could be certain of was that there had to be thousands of pods the drones hadn’t detected.
They also knew they were looking at a system that was even more heavily industrialized than they’d anticipated. The drones had confirmed Exploratrice’s initial estimate: there were almost a dozen massive industrial platforms, served by an entire fleet of asteroid extraction ships and orbital smelters, spaced around the outermost asteroid belt, while gas-mining tankers shuttled back and forth between the inner system and El Dorado-V, a super-giant barely short of a brown star.
Under the circumstances, they were fortunate El Dorado wasn’t fortified even more heavily, and all of them knew it. Unfortunately, there were still all too many things they didn’t know.


Despite Oyster Bay sparing them, and two massive fleets trying to conquer the Manticore system in short succession, its forts haven't seen action yet. That's because the RMN was usually powerful enough to maintain a strong defense whilst also carrying out offensive operations.

The Galton Navy appears to have been large enough to enter the top 10 of navies. It's just too bad for them that they got attacked by the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th largest navies simultaneously.

And, need I say it again? That is only Galton. Perhaps you and I simply share the same nightmare brought on by the same premonition. Namely, a Home System that makes the MBS look like a Boy Scout Camp, when the shit hits the fan.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:22 pm

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cthia wrote:And, need I say it again? That is only Galton. Perhaps you and I simply share the same nightmare brought on by the same premonition. Namely, a Home System that makes the MBS look like a Boy Scout Camp, when the shit hits the fan.


I didn't get the impression that Darius is nearly as heavily industrialised and fortified as Galton was. Remember that Galton was bent towards the militaristic attitude, which fed into its defensive posture. Darius, on the other hand, is Galton's peace-loving brother, an idyllic system where the Detweilers would want to live on. They wouldn't want clouds of fortresses blocking their view. They may have been arrogant enough to believe their infallibility and think that there was no way someone could find Darius.

Remember also that Darius was founded roughly 50 years after Galton, so it has had only about two thirds of the life that Galton did. Plus, it received a much smaller portion of imported slaves for a seed workforce. That difference in initial conditions should lead to a smaller population and industry.

That's not to say there aren't fortifications or a large industrial base. I'm just saying I don't think it's nearly as heavy as Galton's.

What we don't know is just where Darius is located. The Felix wormhole could lead in any direction, after all. Given that it hadn't been discovered yet, it's unlikely Darius is towards the SL core and other populated areas of the Galaxy. If it's completely in the opposite direction from the settled volume, then the MAN may have chosen to fortify the terminus first and foremost.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by munroburton   » Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:38 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:And, need I say it again? That is only Galton. Perhaps you and I simply share the same nightmare brought on by the same premonition. Namely, a Home System that makes the MBS look like a Boy Scout Camp, when the shit hits the fan.


I didn't get the impression that Darius is nearly as heavily industrialised and fortified as Galton was. Remember that Galton was bent towards the militaristic attitude, which fed into its defensive posture. Darius, on the other hand, is Galton's peace-loving brother, an idyllic system where the Detweilers would want to live on. They wouldn't want clouds of fortresses blocking their view. They may have been arrogant enough to believe their infallibility and think that there was no way someone could find Darius.

Remember also that Darius was founded roughly 50 years after Galton, so it has had only about two thirds of the life that Galton did. Plus, it received a much smaller portion of imported slaves for a seed workforce. That difference in initial conditions should lead to a smaller population and industry.

That's not to say there aren't fortifications or a large industrial base. I'm just saying I don't think it's nearly as heavy as Galton's.

What we don't know is just where Darius is located. The Felix wormhole could lead in any direction, after all. Given that it hadn't been discovered yet, it's unlikely Darius is towards the SL core and other populated areas of the Galaxy. If it's completely in the opposite direction from the settled volume, then the MAN may have chosen to fortify the terminus first and foremost.


That's pretty much what I was going to say. Galton poured most of its industrial output into its own fortification. Whereas Darius is spending a lot of its output on something else, which necessarily leaves less for fortification, if they even bother.

It all comes down to whatever the Lenny Ds are actually capable of. I think we first found out those were eventually coming in 2009 with Storm from the Shadows...
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:42 pm

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munroburton wrote:It all comes down to whatever the Lenny Ds are actually capable of. I think we first found out those were eventually coming in 2009 with Storm from the Shadows...


I don't think they come into the equation. As I've said before, time and again, the spider drive concept has only proven itself in practice sometime in the 1910s, probably even the latter half of it. Remember the Sharks are still prototype ships, meant to prove the concept.

This means that any and all mobile defence that Darius has are based on conventional, impeller-drive ships, because the alternative is that it has NO defence and I don't think that scenario is likely. I can buy that they've already adapted those plans to account for spider-drive torpedoes, but not yet for spider-drive ships. There aren't enough of them. That will change as more ships come off the assembly lines, but as of now (circa 1924 PD), it hasn't happened.

And if they have an capital, impeller ships to defend the system with, those can only have been built in Darius itself. Anything above BC size doesn't fall through the cracks at the SLN; as corrupt as Technodyne may be, someone would become curious where an SD they built would go. Therefore, sourcing them outside would have been too risky. That means Darius must have shipyards and about a quarter-century of experience building ships, with know-how borrowed from Galton.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by kzt   » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:18 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:with know-how borrowed from Galton.

And others. They were planning on this for a while. I suspect that Technodyne and a few others had technical experts vanish over the past few decades.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:42 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:And, need I say it again? That is only Galton. Perhaps you and I simply share the same nightmare brought on by the same premonition. Namely, a Home System that makes the MBS look like a Boy Scout Camp, when the shit hits the fan.


I didn't get the impression that Darius is nearly as heavily industrialised and fortified as Galton was. Remember that Galton was bent towards the militaristic attitude, which fed into its defensive posture. Darius, on the other hand, is Galton's peace-loving brother, an idyllic system where the Detweilers would want to live on. They wouldn't want clouds of fortresses blocking their view. They may have been arrogant enough to believe their infallibility and think that there was no way someone could find Darius.

Remember also that Darius was founded roughly 50 years after Galton, so it has had only about two thirds of the life that Galton did. Plus, it received a much smaller portion of imported slaves for a seed workforce. That difference in initial conditions should lead to a smaller population and industry.

That's not to say there aren't fortifications or a large industrial base. I'm just saying I don't think it's nearly as heavy as Galton's.

What we don't know is just where Darius is located. The Felix wormhole could lead in any direction, after all. Given that it hadn't been discovered yet, it's unlikely Darius is towards the SL core and other populated areas of the Galaxy. If it's completely in the opposite direction from the settled volume, then the MAN may have chosen to fortify the terminus first and foremost.

You are still sweating the small details. Details that can be altered by the stroke of the pen. The pen is loaded with ink laced with handwavium. Consider that Galton shouldn't even exist. The author can wave these kinds of details away quite easily. I cannot believe that Darius won't be even more heavily fortified than Galton.

I also mentioned somewhere that I believe that the cream of the officer Corp were evacuated from Galton. There is no reason essential personnel were not evacuated as well. I know we were not informed of that, but again, a stroke of the pen.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:32 am

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cthia wrote:You are still sweating the small details. Details that can be altered by the stroke of the pen. The pen is loaded with ink laced with handwavium. Consider that Galton shouldn't even exist. The author can wave these kinds of details away quite easily. I cannot believe that Darius won't be even more heavily fortified than Galton.


Of course, but DW tends to keep that to a minimum, so it's believable. He also likes to give hints to what he's thinking. We know he already knows how this is going to end, in broad strokes. So it's reasonable to speculate and extrapolate.

I think it would be silly for Darius not to be heavily defended, but all details that we know of point it to it being that way. It was never meant to be found and it was never meant to be identified as the source of the chaos anyway, so it should simply show up -- if ever discovered! -- as a peace-loving planet that shouldn't be blamed.

I also mentioned somewhere that I believe that the cream of the officer Corp were evacuated from Galton. There is no reason essential personnel were not evacuated as well. I know we were not informed of that, but again, a stroke of the pen.


No, they weren't. They were never there in the first place. Evacuations happening a year or two before the GA's arrival would leave a trail of breadcrumbs for the GA to follow.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:54 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Remember also that Darius was founded roughly 50 years after Galton, so it has had only about two thirds of the life that Galton did. Plus, it received a much smaller portion of imported slaves for a seed workforce. That difference in initial conditions should lead to a smaller population and industry.

Darius has been in existence for about 200 years, giving it 80% of the time of Galton, not 67%.

Darius currently has a population of 3.9 billion.
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