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Attacking Darius:

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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:22 am

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Brigade XO wrote:If Manticore had not been warned about Filareta there would have been a lot more losses on both sides though the majority proably still have been to the SLN.
Without the interruption of Filareta being confronted by the massed fleets and at least warned by and called to surrender by Harrington, the SLN fleet would have come in shooting and the Home Fleet would would have gone to Case Zulu and started killing everything it could reach with both missiles from magazines and the system defense pods.

The other thing that happens is a different result with the Task Force hanging around near the Beowulf end of the wormhole. Given that we have already seen that Beowulf told the SLN that it would not allow them to transit- and even if the RMN force was not staged forward to the Beowulf end of the wormhole, things would have gone much differently. Lets say that Beowulf backed down and didn't engage the SLN....but given the level of involvement between the BSDF and RMN (and their respective governments), unless the SLN somehow gabbed control of Astro Control, messages would have been set though to the Junction that the SLN force was moving on the terminus......and then the Junction fully switches on the auto response for it's minefields and gives the forts "weapons free" notices. Why? because the trigger for the SLN force to go though the terminus is a courier boat running through to the Beowulf end bringing the news to the SLN task force that Raging Justice has started by what would have been the appearance and engagement by Filareta.
So every SLN ship coming through from Beowulf is going to be at least heavily damaged if not turned to dust bunnies.....and it really would have been shooting fish in a barrel without any mitigation of damage by the shots having to go through the water first. Just how many SLN ships would have been destroyed within 10 seconds of appearance at the Junction end before the "close" mines would have all been expended and the time started to rise to 20 seconds, 30 seconds and the closest forts would have started pumping small packets of missiles into the throat of that emergence lane. Remember, these weapons are steerable so you fire from a fort and bring the missiles in so they are accelerating straight down center of the emergence lane- and the throat aspect of the emerging ships. Maximum chance of significant damage in the most vulnerable part of the target even if they had advanced to the point where they could bring up their wedge.
So lets say all of the task forces attempts to go through and 98% of the crew are killed. Then there is what is going to happen to Filarta. Ok, the RMN ships might be out of position but they and the pods are shooting MDMs and Filareta still don't have any real handle of what RMN ECM and other penetration aids are going to do to his fleet. So he's beaten back the Sphinx portion of the Home Fleet but taken massive casualties......and unit size groups of the unit of Home Fleet arriving from Manticore via hyper so they are outside the hyper limit and getting full sensor tactical data from the surviving members of the Sphinx contingent AND all those Ghost Rider drones....so they are able to start pumping waves of MDMs at Filarta from outside the hyperlmit and GUIDING them all the way into their targets but able to micorjump out against return fire- while the missiles targeting Filarta get handed off the the Apolo Birds and RMN manned ships.

Would Filarta even threaten an EE event if they didn't surrender.....he's fighting for his life, not in compleat control of Sphinx orbitals----and, at best, he is now having to absorb long range guided fire (massive bulk sniping) while he's down in that gravity well and watching his SDs being torn apart.
And exactly what

Elzabeth's response to this variation of the attack? She still has Harrington and the SLN has now launched a 2nd fleet level attack at the Star Kingdom, this one at the Home System. The Alignment might just get their wish.

You bring up some interesting points. I totally forgot Tsang's prong of the attack, and hence what a totally intact OpSec would have meant all around.

If Beowulf would have been kept out of the loop, Beowulf would have been taken by surprise too, politically as well. Meaning Beowulf wouldn't have had a chance to discuss internally what its reactions would be, could be, or should be, politically, as far as denying Tsang passage. And if Beowulf would not have received the memo, then it means the SLN suspected Beowulf of treachery and treason with enough passion to act on it. If the SLN had had that much brains, then Beowulf would not have been given a weeks warning. Tsang would have arrived and immediately proceeded to advance.

I never understood why the dispatch boat was used in the manner it was used. Coordination of forces should have had that dispatch boat ensuring that Filareta's Fleet was in place. Tsang's Fleet would have had no reason to be late since it was traveling via junctions. It was crazy for Tsang's Fleet to telegraph its intent. When Tsang arrived in Beowulf space, she should have maneuvered on the junction immediately as part of the plan. Beowulf would not have opposed Tsang alone.

The kicker is that the two prongs did not know about each other. The right hand may not have known what the left hand was doing. Filareta simply didn't seem to know about Tsang as we speculated. If that is true, then that is another break the RMN received. They were attacked by a totally unorganized, blind, haphazard two-prong attack. What???

That dispatch boat should have been traveling with Filareta. Heck, the SLN acted as if this was their first rodeo.

I still think total OpSec would have been bloodier for the RMN. Apollo wasn't distributed across the board. Warships would have been caught out of position, without Apollo, and immediately fired upon.

Had the RMN been alone because Haven had not sent them yet, was there a chance Filareta could have hypered inside their own range of Honor's Fleet? Because of wargaming or maneuvering?

If so, then as much lead as Filareta could have pumped out, Honor's Fleet would have taken a beating being out of position for mutual defense. I know this includes a lot of ifs, but total OpSec could have changed a lot of ingredients in the meal.


P.S.

If Tsang had come through, why wouldn't she do it in a mass transit?

As I said in another thread, Tsang could have threatened an EE violation against Beowulf.

BTW, the Havenites totally maintained OpSec in the BoM. Or that would have gone down much differently as well.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:02 am

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cthia wrote:That dispatch boat should have been traveling with Filareta. Heck, the SLN acted as if this was their first rodeo.

How would that have worked? Filareta's fleet arrives and demands surrender; then says "Do you mind if I send this dispatch boat through the wormhole? I promised my mom that I would let her know that I arrived okay."?
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Theemile   » Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:02 am

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cthia wrote:<snip>

P.S.

If Tsang had come through, why wouldn't she do it in a mass transit?

As I said in another thread, Tsang could have threatened an EE violation against Beowulf.

BTW, the Havenites totally maintained OpSec in the BoM. Or that would have gone down much differently as well.


1) Tang would be limited to <30 SDs in a mass transit due to the upper mass limitation of the junction, and would lock down the junction for ~17 hours before the next ship could attempt to jump. Essentially the other 70+ ships would be useless for this battle.

2) The Sollies don't do EEs, remember? Everything they did stopped just short of that extreme, and "Parthian shot" was an escalation ordered after Raging Justice Failed (and few SLN commanders would have done so anyway).
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:38 am

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cthia wrote:I still think total OpSec would have been bloodier for the RMN. Apollo wasn't distributed across the board. Warships would have been caught out of position, without Apollo, and immediately fired upon.

Had the RMN been alone because Haven had not sent them yet, was there a chance Filareta could have hypered inside their own range of Honor's Fleet? Because of wargaming or maneuvering?

If so, then as much lead as Filareta could have pumped out, Honor's Fleet would have taken a beating being out of position for mutual defense. I know this includes a lot of ifs, but total OpSec could have changed a lot of ingredients in the meal.

Unlikely. As Honor was acting as home fleet she's very unlikely to be taking any significant portion of her fleet out near, or beyond, the hyper limit -- even for wargames.
There's a vast amount of area inside the orbit of Sphinx you can use for your wargames; no need to venture out where folks can hyper in on you.

But even if she had taken a bunch of her fleet out to the hyper limit, Filareta doesn't have eyes into the system so it'd be pure blind chance if he emerged within missile range. Hell, we've seen fleets aiming for a know target miss their hyper space emergence by several times MDM range. So even if he magically knew exactly where those ships were he's probably got no better than a 50/50 chance of actually landing within effective missile range of them.
But without knowing where they are, because he can't have scouts already in the system to find them and let him know; not without blowing the surprise and probably getting the scouts all killed, he's got a astronomically small chance of dropping within range of them. A radius of 60 million km (roughly the effective MDM/Cataphract range) is a drop in the bucket compared to the size of a solar system. Just the cicumphrence of the hyper limit is 2.5 billion km around!


But the whole reason Home Fleet stays well within hyper limits as much as possible is to give them time to react; so their ships aren't getting caught widely dispersed and suddenly under the guns of an enemy. Even when Home Fleet had to hang out by the Junction they were still within it's (small) hyper limit and potentially protected by the adjacent RZ which would discourage ships from trying to hyper in atop them (miss into the RZ and you go *poof*).
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:16 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:But without knowing where they are, because he can't have scouts already in the system to find them and let him know; not without blowing the surprise and probably getting the scouts all killed, he's got a astronomically small chance of dropping within range of them. A radius of 60 million km (roughly the effective MDM/Cataphract range) is a drop in the bucket compared to the size of a solar system. Just the cicumphrence of the hyper limit is 2.5 billion km around!


And don't forget a near miss is worse for him than it is for Honor. The MDMs have a powered range of 65 million km, but the Cataphracts only had 20. So if he emerges more than 20 million km from his intended target but less than 65, he's going to eat missiles for lunch, whether that was what he ordered the chef or not.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:36 pm

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cthia wrote:If Beowulf would have been kept out of the loop, Beowulf would have been taken by surprise too, politically as well. Meaning Beowulf wouldn't have had a chance to discuss internally what its reactions would be, could be, or should be, politically, as far as denying Tsang passage. And if Beowulf would not have received the memo, then it means the SLN suspected Beowulf of treachery and treason with enough passion to act on it. If the SLN had had that much brains, then Beowulf would not have been given a weeks warning. Tsang would have arrived and immediately proceeded to advance.


That's what she should have done. Warning Beowulf was stupid from the military point of view. Even if Beowoulf were entirely trustworthy and submissive to the mighty SLN, like she apparently assumed them to be, that was an unnecessary risk. She gave any leakers and potential spies one week to find her out and advise the other side of the Junction.

But it wasn't a military decision. Her prong of the attack was never designed to actually transit. It was designed to kill spacers, both on her ships and especially on Beowulf's First Fleet. The planners (the real ones, not the patsies working for Rajampet) were counting on the BSDF attempting to block Tsang and thus they gave her contingency orders to roll through them. Just think about it: would a legitimate planner, who considered it possible (even if unlikely) that the BSDF First Fleet would attempt to block passage, give the selfsame First Fleet one week to prepare for the event?

No. And Tsang was the single most stupid commander I've ever seen. She blindly followed orders without thinking what they had meant and apparently her staff either was the same or didn't dare tell her. Pavel Young would have looked at her and asked if she had two neurons to rub together. Santini would have laughed at her.

I never understood why the dispatch boat was used in the manner it was used. Coordination of forces should have had that dispatch boat ensuring that Filareta's Fleet was in place. Tsang's Fleet would have had no reason to be late since it was traveling via junctions. It was crazy for Tsang's Fleet to telegraph its intent. When Tsang arrived in Beowulf space, she should have maneuvered on the junction immediately as part of the plan. Beowulf would not have opposed Tsang alone.


Indeed, like I said, this is what she should have done. But it still wouldn't matter because no ship would leave the Junction exit intact. Again, extremely poor thinking on her part. More on this below.

The kicker is that the two prongs did not know about each other. The right hand may not have known what the left hand was doing. Filareta simply didn't seem to know about Tsang as we speculated. If that is true, then that is another break the RMN received. They were attacked by a totally unorganized, blind, haphazard two-prong attack. What???

That dispatch boat should have been traveling with Filareta. Heck, the SLN acted as if this was their first rodeo.


Well, it was, in three centuries.

tlb was being humorous above, but if the DB had dropped out of hyper an hour before Filareta did and OpSec had held, then it could have legitimately asked for and been granted permission to transit. Then it would hyper out in Beowulf and advise Tsang, who would still be in hyper herself too.

Of course, this wouldn't have happened because Filareta did have more than two neurons. He'd have known it was suicide.

First, because said DB would have done the minimum necessary and looked at the forts still alive and well at the Junction. He'd have known there was no way a single file of SDs, transiting 3 minutes apart, would have survived.

Second:

If Tsang had come through, why wouldn't she do it in a mass transit?


Because she couldn't and wouldn't have, assuming someone had the foresight to think about it. She wouldn't have because it locks the junction down for 18 hours and only 25 of her 37 SDs could transit. She'd leave 50% of her forces on the other side. And she couldn't have because a mass transit is a highly complicated affair. Astro Control wouldn't be helping them invade their own system, so that would have meant taking control of Astro Control first and then having competent people plug in the numbers for that transit, then the 25 SDs position themselves perfectly for it.

I don't know how or even if the RMN trains for this, but I seriously doubt the SLN did.

BTW, the Havenites totally maintained OpSec in the BoM. Or that would have gone down much differently as well.


The Havenites were competent.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:37 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:But without knowing where they are, because he can't have scouts already in the system to find them and let him know; not without blowing the surprise and probably getting the scouts all killed, he's got a astronomically small chance of dropping within range of them. A radius of 60 million km (roughly the effective MDM/Cataphract range) is a drop in the bucket compared to the size of a solar system. Just the cicumphrence of the hyper limit is 2.5 billion km around!


And don't forget a near miss is worse for him than it is for Honor. The MDMs have a powered range of 65 million km, but the Cataphracts only had 20. So if he emerges more than 20 million km from his intended target but less than 65, he's going to eat missiles for lunch, whether that was what he ordered the chef or not.
The later revs of Cataphract we saw during UH improved that range -- but yeah, I'd overlooked that Filareta had fairly early versions with their lower accel and hence shorter powered range.

He'd still be able to hit from 50 or 60 million km, after all his Cataphracts can just insert a ballistic segment. Huh - I was going to say that that would make them slower, and hence his ships would get hit before the Cataphract landed, but when I went to quickly run the numbers to see how much slower I found it wasn't!!
There's some range bands where his Cataphracts would hit first; despite a ballistic segment! (The 50 million km range I happened to pick as my planned example turns out to be one of them. His Cataphracts can cover that in 465 seconds, while a Mk23 would take 475).

He's got less drive time, but his acceleration, while it lasts, is way higher - the 1st drive on a Mk23 can do 45,000g for 180 seconds while the 1st stage on 11th fleet's Cataphract can do 71,500g ["seven-zero-one KPS squared"] for that same 180 time; and then of course his CM derived 2nd stage is also higher accel than the Mk23s drives.

[That means that after 360 seconds the Mk23 has burned out 2 of its 3 drives and reached 0.53c and 28,576,800 km, while 11th Fleets Cataphracts burned out its 1st stage and then coasted for 3 more minutes and reached 0.42c, but 34,068,600 km]
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:03 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:He'd still be able to hit from 50 or 60 million km, after all his Cataphracts can just insert a ballistic segment. Huh - I was going to say that that would make them slower, and hence his ships would get hit before the Cataphract landed, but when I went to quickly run the numbers to see how much slower I found it wasn't!!


All missiles with two or more stages have, effectively, unlimited range because they can just insert a ballistic phase for however long that is needed. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.

There's some range bands where his Cataphracts would hit first; despite a ballistic segment! (The 50 million km range I happened to pick as my planned example turns out to be one of them. His Cataphracts can cover that in 465 seconds, while a Mk23 would take 475).


One problem with that is that his accuracy would have sucked at that range. He would have outnumbered the Home Fleet at least 3:1 and he would probably have rolled pods before crossing the wall, so he could have launched a saturation Alpha strike. He'd know that it would have little to no accuracy, so he might as well use quantity instead of quality ("quantity has a quality of its own").

But he couldn't have stopped Home Fleet from returning fire. He might not have known this, but Home Fleet has a better cycle ratio than he did from internal launchers. And he did know that Home Fleet had SD(P)s, while his ships were regular SDs, so Home Fleet would be firing from pods, so Home Fleet would definitely fire more missiles than he would in the second launch. And third and fourth and so on. So even if he managed to somehow mightily damage Home Fleet in the process, his formation would have been torn to tatters.

And this is assuming that Home Fleet doesn't have a solution up its sleeve. Unlike his ships, if Home Fleet had hypergenerators charged, they could hyper out in less than 4 minutes. He couldn't because you can't cycle those generators that fast and he'd just translated down. But it's highly unlikely that Home Fleet would have them ready -- though it's even more unlikely they'd be in a position to have a need for them in the first place.

[That means that after 360 seconds the Mk23 has burned out 2 of its 3 drives and reached 0.53c and 28,576,800 km, while 11th Fleets Cataphracts burned out its 1st stage and then coasted for 3 more minutes and reached 0.42c, but 34,068,600 km]


Which add up to way over the distance between the ships, which enables another solution: the Barricade. Ballistic-phase missiles are particularly vulnerable to this and the Home Fleet MDMs would have time on their wedges' clocks to pitch so their wedges face the oncoming Cataphracts and clear large swaths of them. Multiple times, because again Home Fleet can fire multiple times before that first Alpha strike relights their wedges.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:42 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:[That means that after 360 seconds the Mk23 has burned out 2 of its 3 drives and reached 0.53c and 28,576,800 km, while 11th Fleets Cataphracts burned out its 1st stage and then coasted for 3 more minutes and reached 0.42c, but 34,068,600 km]


Which add up to way over the distance between the ships, which enables another solution: the Barricade. Ballistic-phase missiles are particularly vulnerable to this and the Home Fleet MDMs would have time on their wedges' clocks to pitch so their wedges face the oncoming Cataphracts and clear large swaths of them. Multiple times, because again Home Fleet can fire multiple times before that first Alpha strike relights their wedges.

Barricade as written in that book makes no sense. But given how many more missiles Home Fleet could throw, you're right that they should be able to use a variation on it to massively thin the ranks of the oncoming Cataphracts.

The SLN missile defenses aren't tough enough to require home fleet to stack salvos, so they could punch out a pod salvo every 6 seconds; meaning that in my example of a 180 second coast phase there'd be as many as 30 salvos of Mk23s with their wedges up potentially ripping through the ballistic cataphracts.

That's a lot more chances to sideswipe a coasting missile and doesn't require the crazy implausibly high number intercepts per MDM that the original Barricade claimed.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by kzt   » Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:03 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:The SLN missile defenses aren't tough enough to require home fleet to stack salvos, so they could punch out a pod salvo every 6 seconds; meaning that in my example of a 180 second coast phase there'd be as many as 30 salvos of Mk23s with their wedges up potentially ripping through the ballistic cataphracts.

That's a lot more chances to sideswipe a coasting missile and doesn't require the crazy implausibly high number intercepts per MDM that the original Barricade claimed.

So yeah, the RMN has a very serious missile problem after this is over given that the only missiles they have are in their magazines.
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