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Attacking Darius:

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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Relax   » Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:09 pm

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phillies wrote:The gravitational field of a uniform spherical shell of mass M, and of a point mass of mass M, at points outside the shell, are the same. (Thank you, Karl Friedrich Gauss).

Inside the spherical shell, the gravitational field due to the shell is zero, and the gravitational potential energy is a constant. (Edgar Rice Burroughs got this one wrong in his hollow earth series.)


Gravity field acceleration drops by the distance to said object. Check... Be it a sphere or a hollow sphere of equal mass. Said shell, has to be EXTREMELY dense, but I guess we are ignoring that. IF diameter is different, density did not overtly change, then no as they are not equal anymore in mass.

Gravitation field constant in a hollow sphere? No. It drops off just as it does outwards from the object. There is no mass inwards from the concentrated mass in its shell. DISTANCE from mass concentration is key... is true above as well as below. Now the fall off of the gravity field from the shell is equal throughout said shell...
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:24 pm

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Relax wrote:Gravitation field constant in a hollow sphere? No. It drops off just as it does outwards from the object. There is no mass inwards from the concentrated mass in its shell. DISTANCE from mass concentration is key... is true above as well as below. Now the fall off of the gravity field from the shell is equal throughout said shell...

But while within the sphere the shell surrounds you on all sides - so it is trying to pull you in all directions. Clearly if within a shell of uniform mass and you're in the center its gravity must cancel out as every point on the spherical shell is pulling on you with the same force.

I haven't done the math myself, but the Shell Theorem (originally calculated by Isaac Newton) shows that even if you move off center within the uniform spherical shell the gravitational forces continue to cancel out as the additional force you receive by moving closer to a wall is balanced out by the countervailing forces from having more of the shell "above" you pulling you the other way.


Now if you've got a non-uniform shell, either in shape or in mass distribution then it presumably wouldn't perfectly cancel out and you'd feel some residual gravitational force.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:28 pm

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Darius is an odd case in the Honorverse
This was a planet (that may or may not have needed significant terraforming but it is in a fairly secure location and the MA had a lot of money to buy wnhat it needed to start building what they wanted. It's a 1st tier inhabited planet now with no indication of any needs for domes and apparently enough equipment to continue to build what the MA believes it need. We have to presume significant orbital and other in-system manufacturing including shipyards, materials extraction and a workforce capable of being trained to whatever needs to be done. Ok, much of this is the Darius non-Alpha or Beta and Game lines and the information and education/training they are given has to fit within the parameters of the Alignment to keep the non-star lines from becoming restive.

The materials and work force are now home grown from both the type of genetic cloning and development built on what they learned and created on Mesa. Houdini showed that a very large number of the trained and experienced higher end of the Alignment came from Houdini--on purpose- along with whatever portions of the Star Lines are being expanded in size and abilities from their existing population on Darius.

Remember that along with money (massive gobs of money) extracted from Mesa and from all the tentacles the Alignment had in the SL and other places, they were also able to buy or steal a great deal of modern (in any particular time frame) along with the plans and specs to build what they found inconvient outside of Mesa to get the equipment and tech from the SL and companies like Technodyne. Then they build the equipment and the facilities to do that in plus the fabrications sites off planet.
The Alignment still has all those contacts and many access points to keep funneling any useful tech to Darius. I'm sure they are still accumulating funds outside of Darius and using them to continue to acquire -if not working plants- the information to build them and the specialized gear.
Darius is not exporting goods. They are probably all of what they need at home and it's an internal economy geared to meeting the Alighment plans. That includes the "not-slave" Darius workforce. Need more Prolong-- build the facilities to make it and train up the employment base to do it in an organized time plan. Is there a new version of Prolong....buy some and license the manufacture at some shill planet location and making copies of what you need for formulas, chemicals, new types of equipment to Darius. Heck, you could even have some Star Line "local" people fully trained in the external location and then spirt them away in a mini-Houdini operation when the experienced people die in varioius accidents.

Daruis is -given Houdini- the concentration point of essentialy all of the Alignment R&D operations which were extracted from Mesa. We have not (yet) been told if this was going on in a lot of other places but consider if they got some low level people in Erwhon's shipyards building the Manti-lite equipment and floated that information out to contacts even if they remain in place. To this point we have NOT seen a result of that but is may be a work in progress and the people that would be used might just ultimately expendable dead ends of caught.

Also based on Houdini information we seem to have been given, all of the research on the Spider Drive is probably at Darius and everybody who was working on that and the Streak Drive are either at Darius or dead on Mesa.

That the Alighment also has another location "Site B" up and running out one of those so fas undisclosed wormholes you can get to from the Darius network and is ramping up another high tech, and building locaton for research, fabrication and new workforce to expand beyond the present capasity of Darius.

Just keep throwing out possibilities :)
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:52 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:The entire combined industrial output of every system in the entire Honorverse wouldn't be sufficient to build a Dyson sphere in a mere 2 centuries.

And if you posit that the MAlign has vastly more industrial capability than the entire rest of the Honorverse combined, why would they "waste" it on a Dyson sphere when a tiny fraction of that same industrial output would have let them accomplish their long term goal of taking over the universe, unleashing unlimited genetic modifications, and rubbing Beowulf's nose in it all? (If by no other means than by building a navy so large it would would make the SLN look like a couple armed rowboats trying to guard a harbor)


Not to mention that if you did have a population in excess of 10 trillion to just keep up maintenance on your Dyson Sphere, then you ARE the majority of the human population in the Galaxy. You've already won.

A K2 civilisation could just openly declare itself and then rule the galaxy by force of economic will. If that didn't work, send your million-ship Navy out and about and you'll conquer everyone.

There's no need for convoluted Detweiler Plan.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:47 pm

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I have always posited that the MAlign has more industrial capacity per size.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:53 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:The entire combined industrial output of every system in the entire Honorverse wouldn't be sufficient to build a Dyson sphere in a mere 2 centuries.

And if you posit that the MAlign has vastly more industrial capability than the entire rest of the Honorverse combined, why would they "waste" it on a Dyson sphere when a tiny fraction of that same industrial output would have let them accomplish their long term goal of taking over the universe, unleashing unlimited genetic modifications, and rubbing Beowulf's nose in it all? (If by no other means than by building a navy so large it would would make the SLN look like a couple armed rowboats trying to guard a harbor)


Not to mention that if you did have a population in excess of 10 trillion to just keep up maintenance on your Dyson Sphere, then you ARE the majority of the human population in the Galaxy. You've already won.

A K2 civilisation could just openly declare itself and then rule the galaxy by force of economic will. If that didn't work, send your million-ship Navy out and about and you'll conquer everyone.

There's no need for convoluted Detweiler Plan.

I seriously doubt that a Class III civilization would be using "human" bodies to maintain a Dyson Sphere.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Relax   » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:24 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Relax wrote:Gravitation field constant in a hollow sphere? No. It drops off just as it does outwards from the object. There is no mass inwards from the concentrated mass in its shell. DISTANCE from mass concentration is key... is true above as well as below. Now the fall off of the gravity field from the shell is equal throughout said shell...

But while within the sphere the shell surrounds you on all sides - so it is trying to pull you in all directions. Clearly if within a shell of uniform mass and you're in the center its gravity must cancel out as every point on the spherical shell is pulling on you with the same force.

I haven't done the math myself, but the Shell Theorem (originally calculated by Isaac Newton)

Damn Newton, is there anything he did not theorize...? Should know by now that Phillies has theoretical physics pretty much memorized.

This shell theorem also says some interesting things about stars and black matter(if it exists) which is supposed to be~~ 80% of the mass of the universe.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by munroburton   » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:59 am

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cthia wrote:I have always posited that the MAlign has more industrial capacity per size.


Yes, but...

Mission of Honor wrote:Yet for all the years which had been plowed into Darius, all the effort, all the generations of labor, the fact remained that its space stations and shipyards were significantly less capable than Manticore's had been prior to Oyster Bay. Benjamin Detweiler didn't like admitting that, but he agreed with his father; the day someone stopped admitting the truth was the day he could kiss any of his hopes for the future goodbye. And the truth was that, despite the accomplishments of the Alignment's R&D, and despite any tactical advantages which might accrue from the streak drive and the spider, very few star nations could have matched the industrial efficiency of the Star Empire of Manticore. Indeed, Benjamin suspected that even Manticore had failed to grasp just how great an advantage it possessed in that regard.
Over the last five or six T-years, he and Daniel had been trying to introduce Manticoran practices here at Darius, only to discover that the task wasn't as simple and forthright as it ought to have been. If they'd really wanted to duplicate Manticore's efficiency, they would've had to duplicate Manticore's entire industrial base - and its society - and they simply couldn't do that. Their labor force was extraordinarily good at following orders, extremely well trained, and highly motivated, but the kind of independence of thought which characterized Manticoran workers wasn't exactly something which had been encouraged among the slave workers of Darius. Even if it had been, their basic techniques and technologies were simply different from Manticore's. Better than the majority of League star systems could have produced, if those other star systems had only realized it, yet still at least a full generation behind the Manties.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:35 am

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munroburton wrote:
cthia wrote:I have always posited that the MAlign has more industrial capacity per size.


Yes, but...

Mission of Honor wrote:Yet for all the years which had been plowed into Darius, all the effort, all the generations of labor, the fact remained that its space stations and shipyards were significantly less capable than Manticore's had been prior to Oyster Bay. Benjamin Detweiler didn't like admitting that, but he agreed with his father; the day someone stopped admitting the truth was the day he could kiss any of his hopes for the future goodbye. And the truth was that, despite the accomplishments of the Alignment's R&D, and despite any tactical advantages which might accrue from the streak drive and the spider, very few star nations could have matched the industrial efficiency of the Star Empire of Manticore. Indeed, Benjamin suspected that even Manticore had failed to grasp just how great an advantage it possessed in that regard.
Over the last five or six T-years, he and Daniel had been trying to introduce Manticoran practices here at Darius, only to discover that the task wasn't as simple and forthright as it ought to have been. If they'd really wanted to duplicate Manticore's efficiency, they would've had to duplicate Manticore's entire industrial base - and its society - and they simply couldn't do that. Their labor force was extraordinarily good at following orders, extremely well trained, and highly motivated, but the kind of independence of thought which characterized Manticoran workers wasn't exactly something which had been encouraged among the slave workers of Darius. Even if it had been, their basic techniques and technologies were simply different from Manticore's. Better than the majority of League star systems could have produced, if those other star systems had only realized it, yet still at least a full generation behind the Manties.

Thanks for that textev! I recall the passage now that you've posted it. Now I have to readjust some of my notions. Is it stated what the actual size of the Darius System is? Or is the author holding on to an out? There could be yet another WH in Darisian. . .Dirissive. . .Darius (?) Space.

Munroburton, thanks again for that interesting passage.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Theemile   » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:18 pm

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cthia wrote:Thanks for that textev! I recall the passage now that you've posted it. Now I have to readjust some of my notions. Is it stated what the actual size of the Darius System is? Or is the author holding on to an out? There could be yet another WH in Darisian. . .Dirissive. . .Darius (?) Space.

Munroburton, thanks again for that interesting passage.


Only 1 system is know to have multiple termini from separate wormholes - The Twins. It's 2 termini connect to Torch bridge and the Felix Junction. The Felix Junction has 2 additional undiscussed Termini beyond Darius and the Twins.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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