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Attacking Darius:

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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:34 pm

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tlb wrote:Assuming everyone did buy the sacrifice of Galton, then why would Darius mount any military operation? Their plan was to destabilize the major political units, so people were forced to turn to the Renaissance Factor for stability. The best way to do that does not involve presenting a strong outside enemy to rally against, but instead to foment division and local hatreds. Then in another century or two, the RF will seem like the military leader on the white horse; come to save them all from dissension.


I quite agree and this goes in line with Benjamin Detweiler's musings that he would not be alive to see The Plan come to conclusion.

For the sake of this discussion, however, we'd have to postulate that something changed and they had to adapt to circumstances, forcing them out of the isolation. Of course, if that happened, then the GA is not sitting there idly fiddling its thumbs because it's a peaceful time for everyone.

What I do not understand about this plan (same as the original plan) is why do the people then allow the introduction of genetic planning boards with every increasing power over who has what baby?


My understanding is that it would be lost in the distraction. The destabilisation of civilisation and the break up of the Solarian League would be a smoke screen to hide the fact that the RF would be slowly allowing it. By the time the situation became stable again, it would be fait accompli.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:55 pm

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tlb wrote:What I do not understand about this plan (same as the original plan) is why do the people then allow the introduction of genetic planning boards with every increasing power over who has what baby?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:My understanding is that it would be lost in the distraction. The destabilisation of civilisation and the break up of the Solarian League would be a smoke screen to hide the fact that the RF would be slowly allowing it. By the time the situation became stable again, it would be fait accompli.

But unless the Renaissance Factor controls all planets then people will emigrate, the same as the people who kept fleeing the spread of the Verge controlled by the Solarian League.

The RF trying to use military force to stop the outflow of disaffected will become like the Peoples' Republic, forced to expand while simultaneously keep a restive population under control. The more that they forcibly expand, the more disaffected that they need to control. And most of the troops tasked with these requirements will probably come from the class most affected by the edicts. Remember that Mesa with all its power was not able to control its seccies.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:13 pm

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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:What I do not understand about this plan (same as the original plan) is why do the people then allow the introduction of genetic planning boards with every increasing power over who has what baby?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:My understanding is that it would be lost in the distraction. The destabilisation of civilisation and the break up of the Solarian League would be a smoke screen to hide the fact that the RF would be slowly allowing it. By the time the situation became stable again, it would be fait accompli.

But unless the Renaissance Factor controls all planets then people will emigrate, the same as the people who kept fleeing the spread of the Verge controlled by the Solarian League.

The RF trying to use military force to stop the outflow of disaffected will become like the Peoples' Republic, forced to expand while simultaneously keep a restive population under control. The more that they forcibly expand, the more disaffected that they need to control. And most of the troops tasked with these requirements will probably come from the class most affected by the edicts. Remember that Mesa with all its power was not able to control its seccies.


The Malign has to have a mechanism that we have not seen that will "inspire" the populace to want to embrace genetic uplift. A hidden genetic virus that is suddenly triggered by eating Alterian strawberries (which are just so addictively delicious that you have to try one... here, have one of mine) - or something of that nature. Something to make people WANT, en Mass, to demand a massive genetic screening and remediation program. Otherwise what we are talking that is going to take multiple generations in a Prolong society to slowly shift people's minds about the NEED for such measures.

Essentially, you need to create conditions like Grayson, EVERYWHERE, but have it so the only solution is not one that fits inside the Beowulf code (unlike Grayson).
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:02 am

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tlb wrote:But unless the Renaissance Factor controls all planets then people will emigrate, the same as the people who kept fleeing the spread of the Verge controlled by the Solarian League.


Right now, I agree. The Plan has derailed. What the new plan is, we don't know.

But before it had derailed, the Plan was that the RF would, indeed, be the only controlling entity of civilisation. Everywhere else would be the barbarians. Therefore, only barbarians wouldn't improve themselves through genetic uplift.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:44 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:
That is another reason coordination of fire may be necessary. It is also the reason I stated in another thread that the torpedoes an LD will carry will be much more destructive. Why can't someone else's navy have a Capital ship version of missiles.


Because the torpedoes are already capital ship grade. What's more than capital ship grade?

The torpedoes carried by an LD may be more destructive, but that doesn't change the laws of probability and geometry. They still need to have a firing solution without a wedge is in the way. That's why I said that you can't rely on a 1:1 kill ratio and it needs to be more like 5:1.

Additionally, the torpedoes have never been tested against a powered RMN/GF sidewall and buckler walls. The MAN has no way to test that now, and since it didn't test its torpedoes at Galton, it won't get any data. In fact, the RMN did get some data and may make improvements upon those. This means the MAN can't know how many graser shots it needs to kill a GF capital ship, so it must err on the side of caution.


Theemile wrote:1) The torpedoes used at OB were already oversized and designed for The LDs - the Sharks had to carry them externally for the mission and was limited to 3 torpedoes per ship in special, modified racks. LDs will fire the massive (5-10Ktons) torpedoes from tubes. (btw 5-10 Ktons is the mass of 1-2+ capital missile pods).

2)There is a larger classification of missile than capital - usually called "system defense" or "independant launcher" missiles - these are just too massive to be carried by SDs in bulk, and usually have larger warheads than capital missiles. Traditionally, these were single drive missiles and had extra time on the massive drives to engage targets outside the the target's range, protecting a fixed defensive point. Newer 3,4, and 5 drive defensive missiles are in this same class.

Technically, the Cataphract C in all it's mods would be classed as one of these missiles, as it is too large to fit in a conventional SD's tubes or magazines (and only 6 can fit in a pod).

So it's possible that the LDs could have tubes to fire the Cataphract Cs - but most likely they will just carry pods of them.


This is my take on it, explained. I recall a conversation or two amongst the Detweilers of being very close to certain breakthroughs. They even discussed the size of their torpedoes, iinm. And at Galton we saw one of those breakthroughs in the form of their own version of FTL capability. It was limited, but it was FTL. And they adapted it for their own specific use.

The torpedoes are indeed capital ship grade already. But, it is the first generation as I take it. Rather crude. Now imagine much smaller torpedoes. And when I say capital ship... with SD grade grasers! Firing for a full 3 seconds!

No? Well, is that skepticism? Or fear? Maybe both? Because, I would like to see how those sidewalls will handle that. No matter where the hell the ship is inside the wedge!

P.S.
More TV baggage. I recall the first Klingon Bird of Prey. She was a bit of an eggshell. But she sure could dish it out. Then she'd disappear.

They say the LD is a bit of an eggshell too. But I am having those nightmares again that she will be able to dish it out too. When she fires on you, you will be too damned busy trying to keep your fusion bottles from blowing to fire back. Then the Black Widow will disappear.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by kzt   » Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:42 am

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cthia wrote:When she fires on you, you will be too damned busy trying to keep your fusion bottles from blowing to fire back. Then the Black Widow will disappear.

Mostly you'll just be busy exploding. SD scale grasers are absurdly destructive, you'll never get to the point where you get a firing solution.

Not saying a LD will try to get into a fleet assembly area, or that it could if it did, but if it pulled it off it would be be horrific. And over in well under a minute.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:06 am

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kzt wrote:
cthia wrote:When she fires on you, you will be too damned busy trying to keep your fusion bottles from blowing to fire back. Then the Black Widow will disappear.

Mostly you'll just be busy exploding. SD scale grasers are absurdly destructive, you'll never get to the point where you get a firing solution.

Not saying a LD will try to get into a fleet assembly area, or that it could if it did, but if it pulled it off it would be be horrific. And over in well under a minute.

Yeah, you might just wish you were somewhere under a bridge putting the Kuzak Option to work after discovering there really is hell in space.

I am thinking that Providence can place them in optimum firing range of a fleet assembly area if the Spider was already there.

Like hanging out in orbit. The fleet will be complacent and not bothering to scan for an enemy there. In orbit? Nah!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:29 pm

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cthia wrote:This is my take on it, explained. I recall a conversation or two amongst the Detweilers of being very close to certain breakthroughs. They even discussed the size of their torpedoes, iinm. And at Galton we saw one of those breakthroughs in the form of their own version of FTL capability. It was limited, but it was FTL. And they adapted it for their own specific use.


That's the passage where they're discussing the Silver Bullets, not the torpedoes, and they say that those are still 3x the size of an RMN Ghost Rider. Mostly, that was because they hadn't cracked the miniature fusion technology yet. I don't remember if they also talked about their progress on FTL comms. Given we now know Galton had it, at the time of Operation Fabius the Detweilers at Darius would have know about it too.

The torpedoes are indeed capital ship grade already. But, it is the first generation as I take it. Rather crude. Now imagine much smaller torpedoes. And when I say capital ship... with SD grade grasers! Firing for a full 3 seconds!

No? Well, is that skepticism? Or fear? Maybe both? Because, I would like to see how those sidewalls will handle that. No matter where the hell the ship is inside the wedge!


Of course it matters. If it misses the ship entirely, it's still a miss! The worst that a miss would do is overload the sidewall generators.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:39 pm

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cthia wrote:I am thinking that Providence can place them in optimum firing range of a fleet assembly area if the Spider was already there.


Indeed. Providence or Murphy, depending on who you ask.

But I said this again: no planner relies on luck. A ship behind enemy lines would look for opportunities to strike when unexpected, but you haven't explained what that ship is doing there in the first place. Is it just waiting for an opportunity? What if it never comes?

Also, how is it mitigating the risk of being detected and allowing its technology falling into its enemy hands? If the RMN did realise it was there and what it was, as long as that ship weren't an immediate threat, they'd do all they could to study it without its knowing about it.

Like hanging out in orbit. The fleet will be complacent and not bothering to scan for an enemy there. In orbit? Nah!


I agree it won't be scanning in orbit. That's because the forts and other scanning equipment that are in orbit or nearby will already be doing it. Adding their scan won't reveal what the forts' scans didn't.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:24 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I am thinking that Providence can place them in optimum firing range of a fleet assembly area if the Spider was already there.


Indeed. Providence or Murphy, depending on who you ask.

Both of them like to crash parties.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But I said this again: no planner relies on luck. A ship behind enemy lines would look for opportunities to strike when unexpected, but you haven't explained what that ship is doing there in the first place. Is it just waiting for an opportunity? What if it never comes?

You don't send LDs to infiltrate an enemy system to wait for an opportunity. They are there to attack. They are there to kick the ever loving crap out of the system. By comparison, the Yawatta Strike was a love tap. And if I were responsible for this "Operation Nemesis (?)," I wouldn't send just enough LDs. There will be a few extra which have secondary targets. And after some specific timeline they are free to execute those secondary targets if opportunity knocks. Because the other LDs are already in place. If someone fires on Home Fleet, holy hell will be hatched from unholy Spiders.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Also, how is it mitigating the risk of being detected and allowing its technology falling into its enemy hands? If the RMN did realise it was there and what it was, as long as that ship weren't an immediate threat, they'd do all they could to study it without its knowing about it.

Study it? Knock yourself out. Because hell is about to come to town.

cthia wrote:Like hanging out in orbit. The fleet will be complacent and not bothering to scan for an enemy there. In orbit? Nah!


ThinksMarkedly wrote:I agree it won't be scanning in orbit. That's because the forts and other scanning equipment that are in orbit or nearby will already be doing it. Adding their scan won't reveal what the forts' scans didn't.

The scanning equipment in orbit will be useless and focused elsewhere. If you are scanning your property with binoculars, you aren't focused on the tree in your front yard. And the scans of the Forts will be irrelevant from their distance.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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