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Attacking Darius:

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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by phillies   » Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:38 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Which would be an Eridani violation. And it would mean that if Darius is discovered it's probably destroyed with a c-frac strike. Max speed towards the planet, lob the whole magazine at the planet, drives timed to light so they burn out at impact, the ship hypers out just before hitting the limit. Nobody's got anything that can stop that.


A freighter rotated so the strike hits the freighter's indestructible wedge will stop it, won't it?
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:10 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:Which would be an Eridani violation. And it would mean that if Darius is discovered it's probably destroyed with a c-frac strike. Max speed towards the planet, lob the whole magazine at the planet, drives timed to light so they burn out at impact, the ship hypers out just before hitting the limit. Nobody's got anything that can stop that.

phillies wrote:A freighter rotated so the strike hits the freighter's indestructible wedge will stop it, won't it?

Yes and let's not forget counter missiles; particularly since Galton demonstrated a whole new long distance version launched from pods. Beowulf had an array of freighters serving as blocking walls around vulnerable spots and they worked wonderfully; just not against the unknown internal threat.

But as many people have noted Darius is not expected to be the target of an Eridani Edict violation.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Fox2!   » Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:14 pm

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tlb wrote:
But as many people have noted Darius is not expected to be the target of an Eridani Edict violation.


I can't see Torch or Manticore signing off on a c-frac strike, except as a last resort. It would kill all of the slaves, as well as the enhanced lines.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:40 pm

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tlb wrote:But as many people have noted Darius is not expected to be the target of an Eridani Edict violation.

Fox2! wrote:I can't see Torch or Manticore signing off on a c-frac strike, except as a last resort. It would kill all of the slaves, as well as the enhanced lines.

No need to stop at just two governments, there is no reason to believe that Haven or the Andermani are anymore likely to engage in or condone genocidal acts.

Plus the Grand Alliance still needs to concern itself with public opinion in the new Solarian League and the planets in the Verge, including the renovated Mesa. That is not to say they are servants to those opinions, but part of the recovery from the wars has to include cultivating better relations with the defeated nations (as history as shown).
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:49 am

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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:But as many people have noted Darius is not expected to be the target of an Eridani Edict violation.

Fox2! wrote:I can't see Torch or Manticore signing off on a c-frac strike, except as a last resort. It would kill all of the slaves, as well as the enhanced lines.

No need to stop at just two governments, there is no reason to believe that Haven or the Andermani are anymore likely to engage in or condone genocidal acts.

Plus the Grand Alliance still needs to concern itself with public opinion in the new Solarian League and the planets in the Verge, including the renovated Mesa. That is not to say they are servants to those opinions, but part of the recovery from the wars has to include cultivating better relations with the defeated nations (as history as shown).

I think that many of the officers under the weight of such orders would flat out refuse. I don't think Torch would ever forgive Manticore for such despicable deeds. Queen Berry would have her hands full dealing with the fallout. Who knows what it would lead to. Insurrection?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Sat Feb 12, 2022 7:21 am

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You know, several people in the forum have expressed disdain about how the RMN seems to catch all of the breaks. Just in time technological breakthroughs, just in time alliances, just in time cavalries, and on and on.

Personally, I dismissed the rants, as, such is the state of affairs when you are "the good guys." ...

"A ripple in time saves nine."
"You reap what you sow."

Etc.

But, there is no denying that the RMN receives all of the breaks. And - in the case of some of the officers in Haven's camp, at least - the RMN doesn't corner the market on stalwart, morally intact officers; a fact that one of our forumites, roseandheather, first made me aware of. Begrudgingly.

At any rate, I pulled that complaint out of my in-box to have a closer look. Right out of the box I recalled that Manticore even had a very big warning that Operation Raging Justice was coming, what it entailed, when it was arriving, its CO, and the order of battle. Damn! What a cheatsheet!

I wonder how that Operation would have fared had it been a total surprise; if the SLN had managed to maintain total Operation Security. My two bitcoins on it is the floor still would have been mopped with them, but perhaps some key RMN personnel would have died.

Fast forward to different combatants. I wonder how Darius would fare if they have a significant warning and lead time on the RMN's arrival. Galton had a certain degree of a warning.

At any rate, will the author throw a total surprise party for Darius?

Or, if Darius receives a very early warning, how much better would they fare?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:25 am

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cthia wrote:At any rate, I pulled that complaint out of my in-box to have a closer look. Right out of the box I recalled that Manticore even had a very big warning that Operation Raging Justice was coming, what it entailed, when it was arriving, its CO, and the order of battle. Damn! What a cheatsheet!

I wonder how that Operation would have fared had it been a total surprise; if the SLN had managed to maintain total Operation Security. My two bitcoins on it is the floor still would have been mopped with them, but perhaps some key RMN personnel would have died.

Fast forward to different combatants. I wonder how Darius would fare if they have a significant warning and lead time on the RMN's arrival. Galton had a certain degree of a warning.

At any rate, will the author throw a total surprise party for Darius?

Or, if Darius receives a very early warning, how much better would they fare?

The Battle of Darius should be the climax that all these books were building toward. As such, it should be at least as big as the First Battle of Manticore. The author originally planned to kill Honor in that battle, do you suppose that might happen at Darius to complete the revised timeline?
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:43 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:At any rate, I pulled that complaint out of my in-box to have a closer look. Right out of the box I recalled that Manticore even had a very big warning that Operation Raging Justice was coming, what it entailed, when it was arriving, its CO, and the order of battle. Damn! What a cheatsheet!

I wonder how that Operation would have fared had it been a total surprise; if the SLN had managed to maintain total Operation Security. My two bitcoins on it is the floor still would have been mopped with them, but perhaps some key RMN personnel would have died.

Fast forward to different combatants. I wonder how Darius would fare if they have a significant warning and lead time on the RMN's arrival. Galton had a certain degree of a warning.

At any rate, will the author throw a total surprise party for Darius?

Or, if Darius receives a very early warning, how much better would they fare?

The Battle of Darius should be the climax that all these books were building toward. As such, it should be at least as big as the First Battle of Manticore. The author originally planned to kill Honor in that battle, do you suppose that might happen at Darius to complete the revised timeline?

I sure hope not. The Honorverse just won't be the same without Honor. And I don't think the author wants to spend an eternity on the sofa. LOL

But I thought about that as well. As I said in another thread, a lot of VIP's could have died in the Battle of Galton. Honor rattled off a veritable WHO'S WHO on her list of favorite officers in that battle. A lot of important people could have died there. At any rate, I think Honor has earned the right to a long retirement. However, the author may not have promised his wife that Honor won't lose more limbs or another eye. Fingers crossed in her favor.

But yes, I agree. I am looking forward to The Battle of Darius even dwarfing The Battle of Manticore in many areas, but mainly as the author's very best work. And covering many chapters.



P.S. Thanks for the kind comments about the Covid cases in my family. The conditions are the same as your friend's sister. Preexisting conditions.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:55 pm

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cthia wrote:At any rate, I pulled that complaint out of my in-box to have a closer look. Right out of the box I recalled that Manticore even had a very big warning that Operation Raging Justice was coming, what it entailed, when it was arriving, its CO, and the order of battle. Damn! What a cheatsheet!

I wonder how that Operation would have fared had it been a total surprise; if the SLN had managed to maintain total Operation Security. My two bitcoins on it is the floor still would have been mopped with them, but perhaps some key RMN personnel would have died.


It would still have been turned around, but would have been far bloodier. And that's considering that the SLN lost 250 SDs outright in that battle.

Remember that the Second Battle of Manticore happened about one year after the First. And remember why Haven launched Operation Beatrice in the first place: Apollo missiles and possible deployment thereof in system defence.

So when Filareta arrived, there would have been a significant constellation of Mk42 system-defence versions of Apollo. Filareta wouldn't have walked into a trap that was designed for him to surrender with minimal bloodshed. Instead, a Case Zulu would be declared and the missiles fired once he attempted to close with Sphinx. RMN assets could have found themselves in the wrong position, too close to avoid battle with the arriving SLN, given that Filareta had those Galton-improved Cataphracts.

But in the end, there was nothing he could do. The assessment in the text was that Yeltsin's Star could survive an attack by 1000 superdreadnoughts and I'm assuming they were talking about Havenite quality ones, not SLN. The MBS could probably do better, at the very least because they'd have enough time to shift resources from one of the components to the other and call in reserves via the Junction.

As for what it would mean if Darius is forewarned, I can't tell. I should point out that Galton did not it was going to eventually be invaded, but I don't see that there was anything that they could have done to change the outcome, or even nudge it significantly.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Sat Feb 12, 2022 7:27 pm

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cthia wrote:At any rate, I pulled that complaint out of my in-box to have a closer look. Right out of the box I recalled that Manticore even had a very big warning that Operation Raging Justice was coming, what it entailed, when it was arriving, its CO, and the order of battle. Damn! What a cheatsheet!

I wonder how that Operation would have fared had it been a total surprise; if the SLN had managed to maintain total Operation Security. My two bitcoins on it is the floor still would have been mopped with them, but perhaps some key RMN personnel would have died.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It would still have been turned around, but would have been far bloodier. And that's considering that the SLN lost 250 SDs outright in that battle.

Remember that the Second Battle of Manticore happened about one year after the First. And remember why Haven launched Operation Beatrice in the first place: Apollo missiles and possible deployment thereof in system defence.

So when Filareta arrived, there would have been a significant constellation of Mk42 system-defence versions of Apollo. Filareta wouldn't have walked into a trap that was designed for him to surrender with minimal bloodshed. Instead, a Case Zulu would be declared and the missiles fired once he attempted to close with Sphinx. RMN assets could have found themselves in the wrong position, too close to avoid battle with the arriving SLN, given that Filareta had those Galton-improved Cataphracts.

But in the end, there was nothing he could do. The assessment in the text was that Yeltsin's Star could survive an attack by 1000 superdreadnoughts and I'm assuming they were talking about Havenite quality ones, not SLN. The MBS could probably do better, at the very least because they'd have enough time to shift resources from one of the components to the other and call in reserves via the Junction.

As for what it would mean if Darius is forewarned, I can't tell. I should point out that Galton did not it was going to eventually be invaded, but I don't see that there was anything that they could have done to change the outcome, or even nudge it significantly.

A "significant constellation of Mk42 system-defence versions of Apollo" depends entirely on how much had been produced by Manticore before the Yawata Strike and how much had been produced by Beowulf and shipped to Manticore after it. RFC said somewhere in the forum (I believe) that Manticore was actually guarded by a large number of Haven's pods in addition to what Manticore had available.

So if Filareta could have attacked without warning before Zilwicki and Cachet had returned there might have been a significant difference in what the SLN fleet could have accomplished before being destroyed.

I expect that Darius will have warning, because the weak point is whatever Mannerheim knows as its forces guard the wormhole. The warning will be a ship coming through to say that the other end has been lost. Not that the Grand Alliance will be able to attack through that wormhole; but if the ships' computers have any coordinates for what is on the other side, then final battle is approaching.
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