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Was this out of character for Honor?

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Was this out of character for Honor?
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:27 pm

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Snipped from the Wiki because I can trust it better than my memory banks. :D

Wiki wrote:Warner Caslet was a former Havenite citizen and officer in the People's Navy, who went into exile and later became a Grayson citizen and an officer of the Grayson Space Navy.

Biography
A native of the planet Danville in the Paroa System, Warner Caslet entered the Havenite naval academy to become an officer of the People's Navy. Upon graduation, Caslet's oath as an officer was administered by Fleet Admiral Amos Parnell, the Chief of Naval Operations at that time. (HH8)

Caslet rose through the ranks, reaching the rank of Commander and becoming the commanding officer of the light cruiser PNS Vaubon sometime before the Harris Assassination and the Committee of Public Safety's assumption to power over the People's Republic.

Unlike other higher-ranking commanding officers of the People's Navy, Caslet and his command crew were left almost untouched by the Committee's purges of the Navy, as Vaubon was small and independent enough to not attract the attention of the new regime. Despite this, Caslet made a point of either following the Committee's guidelines regarding forms of address or calling his subordinates by their given names; in the case of Lieutenant Shannon Foraker, he personally pleaded with Denis Jourdain, Vaubon's People's Commissioner, to turn a blind eye to her lapses into pre-revolutionary speech, as her technical abilities were too important for Vaubon and the Navy in general. (HH5, HH6)

Caslet's faith in Shannon Foraker's abilities would prove good during Operations Stalking Horse and Dagger, as it was Foraker who first identified the Grayson superdreadnoughts diverted to reestablish Allied control over Candor and Minette, as well as detecting (though too late) the presence of another six Grayson superdreadnoughts within the "disorganized" Grayson Space Navy forces which proceeded to intercept Vice Admiral Alexander Thurston's Task Force 14 during the Fourth Battle of Yeltsin's Star. (HH5)

Still in command of Vaubon, Commander Caslet was deployed to the Silesian Confederacy around 1908 PD, as Vaubon was assigned to scout the Confederacy's systems in advance of Admiral Javier Giscard's Task Force 29. During the reconnaissance of the Arendscheldt System, Vaubon encountered the drifting wreck of the Trianon Combine-registered merchantman TCMS Erewhon, which had been attacked by pirates. The carnage found onboard Erewhon led Commander Caslet to request that Vaubon be allowed to pursue and destroy the pirates which had attacked the freighter, an action Admiral Giscard would authorize.

While successful at first, destroying a pirate vessel and finding through the Manticoran crewmen captured by the pirates that they belonged to Andre Warnecke's "privateer" squadron, Commander Caslet would find himself and Vaubon in a serious dilemma, as a group of pirate vessels were found attacking a Manticoran merchant vessel in the Schiller System. Despite his own standing orders to attack Manticoran commerce in the Confederacy, Caslet succeeded in convincing Commissioner Jourdain to authorize him to attack the pirates, but his gallant action turned into disaster when the Manticoran merchantman revealed herself as the Q-ship HMAMC Wayfarer, under the command of Captain Honor Harrington, who requested the surrender of Vaubon once the pirates were dealt with.


I always disagreed with Honor's decision here. At the end of the day, I know she was simply following orders and doing her duty. But if Caslet had also followed orders he would have assisted the pirates and maybe destroyed Wayfarer. He was under orders to attack Manticoran shipping. Caslet's intentions were honorable and altruistic, and I think in this instance he should have been let go. I suppose Honor couldn't afford to let him go since he now knew the secret identity of Wayfarer. But it is just hard to swallow for me. Which is why Honor was in the hot-seat making the big calls and not me.

But! Didn't she have the same duty to detain Cachat when he came aboard her ship to consult with her about a secret entity? Even though she knew he was prepared to kill himself? She couldn't really know for certain there was a secret entity. Even so, capturing Cachat would have been a big prize.

I am certainly not expecting anyone to agree with me on this one, I'm mostly lifting the weight off my back. It nags me.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Was this out of character for Honor?
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:34 pm

cthia
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BTW, from where did Shannon obtain all of her technical skills?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Was this out of character for Honor?
Post by tlb   » Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:13 am

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cthia wrote:But! Didn't she have the same duty to detain Cachat when he came aboard her ship to consult with her about a secret entity? Even though she knew he was prepared to kill himself? She couldn't really know for certain there was a secret entity. Even so, capturing Cachat would have been a big prize.

I think the deciding factor is that he was accompanied by Zilwicki. With both of them arguing that Haven did not try to kill Zilwicki's adopted daughter and that they intended to infiltrate Mesa to get the facts that affected Manticore, Torch and Haven, then she was persuaded to let them try.
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Re: Was this out of character for Honor?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:59 am

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cthia wrote:I always disagreed with Honor's decision here. At the end of the day, I know she was simply following orders and doing her duty. But if Caslet had also followed orders he would have assisted the pirates and maybe destroyed Wayfarer. He was under orders to attack Manticoran shipping. Caslet's intentions were honorable and altruistic, and I think in this instance he should have been let go. I suppose Honor couldn't afford to let him go since he now knew the secret identity of Wayfarer. But it is just hard to swallow for me. Which is why Honor was in the hot-seat making the big calls and not me.


But she did let him and Shannon go, just not at this time. As you said, they knew the identity of the Q-ship and that's not something the condition of war could have allowed her to spread. That would have been major dereliction of her duty.

But when she eventually let Caslet go, she adopted the fiction that Wayfarer was flying an Andermani flag to have Caslet and crew not receive punishment.
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Re: Was this out of character for Honor?
Post by cthia   » Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:51 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:But! Didn't she have the same duty to detain Cachat when he came aboard her ship to consult with her about a secret entity? Even though she knew he was prepared to kill himself? She couldn't really know for certain there was a secret entity. Even so, capturing Cachat would have been a big prize.

I think the deciding factor is that he was accompanied by Zilwicki. With both of them arguing that Haven did not try to kill Zilwicki's adopted daughter and that they intended to infiltrate Mesa to get the facts that affected Manticore, Torch and Haven, then she was persuaded to let them try.

You are probably spot on on the deciding factor. Zilwicki vouched for him. And Zilwicki's opinion would carry a lot of weight, even though he wasn't navy?

At any rate, Zilwicki vouched for Cachat and confirmed that he was trying to do the honorable thing is another way to look at it. But if you look at it that way, Caslet was trying to do the honorable thing as well, which Honor already knew for a fact first hand. So, I suppose one would have to add to the fact that not only did Zilwicki vouch for him, Honor had to consider that their mission to end the war was a bigger prize. Which is what you said when you stated the two of them were trying to help all nations involved.

Welcome back, btw, after a long absence.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Was this out of character for Honor?
Post by cthia   » Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:09 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I always disagreed with Honor's decision here. At the end of the day, I know she was simply following orders and doing her duty. But if Caslet had also followed orders he would have assisted the pirates and maybe destroyed Wayfarer. He was under orders to attack Manticoran shipping. Caslet's intentions were honorable and altruistic, and I think in this instance he should have been let go. I suppose Honor couldn't afford to let him go since he now knew the secret identity of Wayfarer. But it is just hard to swallow for me. Which is why Honor was in the hot-seat making the big calls and not me.


But she did let him and Shannon go, just not at this time. As you said, they knew the identity of the Q-ship and that's not something the condition of war could have allowed her to spread. That would have been major dereliction of her duty.

But when she eventually let Caslet go, she adopted the fiction that Wayfarer was flying an Andermani flag to have Caslet and crew not receive punishment.

She did eventually let them go, and she was willing to lie to help repatriate them. But that goes toward motive that she felt sour about what she had done as well. She had to know full-well that there would be a good chance that her ruse wouldn't work.

Frankly, under the suspicious eyes of the regime at that time it was almost a certainty the truth would come out. I am willing to bet that that is what happened. Every surviving crew member was probably severely debriefed and someone's story didn't add up.

Honor had to have known that Caslet and crew may have been executed or exiled, which would have been an unworthy end to such an honorable act. I can imagine - that for some career personnel - exile is worse than death. Honor came to know that fact very well.

Late edit: Haven's debriefings during that time probably rivaled the Spanish Inquisition.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Was this out of character for Honor?
Post by tlb   » Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:42 pm

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cthia wrote:Welcome back, btw, after a long absence.

Thank you, I have not been away, just lurking without signing in. I have not felt motivated, because it seems so long since we have had a new book to discuss (Flint's forthcoming page on his website still had not been updated the last that I looked). I am sure that in October (?) there will be many new things for us to argue about. When I have that book in hand, I am also sure hat I will be excited again.
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Re: Was this out of character for Honor?
Post by SharkHunter   » Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:43 pm

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I don't think so... and here's why: Timothy Meares.

If Haven wasn't the originator of the nano-tech that made Honor kill a trusted friend, and two of the more dangerous people in the Honorverse are offering to go dig out the truth so that Honor can get to them? She wouldn't have batted an eyelash before making the choice, hang the consequences. And as much as Elizabeth would have hated to admit it, Honor already knew that Haven's leadership were cats of a different color than the "Peeps" or Pierre/Saint Just. Cachat and Kevin Usher just happen to be the most dangerous cats of the new color.

But she also had Zilwicki's assurances that Victor had gained no tactical or strategic information, her own telempathy, and Nimitz essentially saying "send this dragon --"... which made it the right decision.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Was this out of character for Honor?
Post by cthia   » Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:02 am

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SharkHunter wrote:I don't think so... and here's why: Timothy Meares.

If Haven wasn't the originator of the nano-tech that made Honor kill a trusted friend, and two of the more dangerous people in the Honorverse are offering to go dig out the truth so that Honor can get to them? She wouldn't have batted an eyelash before making the choice, hang the consequences. And as much as Elizabeth would have hated to admit it, Honor already knew that Haven's leadership were cats of a different color than the "Peeps" or Pierre/Saint Just. Cachat and Kevin Usher just happen to be the most dangerous cats of the new color.

But she also had Zilwicki's assurances that Victor had gained no tactical or strategic information, her own telempathy, and Nimitz essentially saying "send this dragon --"... which made it the right decision.

Interesting.

First off, I always wondered what kind of strategic or tactical information Cachat could have obtained simply by eyeballing the ship up close, even if he had been a trained shipbuilder or navy tactician. Of which he was neither. I know it must be possible for a trained eye to gather useful information that way, since the US never allows the right side of Air Force One to be photographed.

It is the very fact that he was one of the most dangerous men in the Galaxy which is what made it questionable why she let him go. If she had detained him, then the mission may have been a wrap and Manticore wouldn't presently be blamed for bombing Mesa.

Pros:
- Manticore wouldn't be blamed for bombing Mesa.
- Houdini wouldn't have been triggered. (Pro or Con?)
- Did their mission ultimately lead to the Alliance?
- Albrecht Detweiler and some of the Inner Onion were killed.
- The destruction of the Gamma Center.

Cons:
- Albrecht Detweiler would still be alive.
- Whatever info obtained from the mission wouldn't exist. But then, what information did the two actually gather?


On the flip side, if Honor had allowed Caslet to sail away, she would have been devastated if Caslet's ship had later become responsible for the lost of Manticoran shipping. Hmm, how could Honor have let him go and be assured that he wouldn't have fired on her?

Cause and effect can be an ugly beast to reckon with.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Was this out of character for Honor?
Post by tlb   » Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:19 am

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cthia wrote:It is the very fact that he was one of the most dangerous men in the Galaxy which is what made it questionable why she let him go. If she had detained him, then the mission may have been a wrap and Manticore wouldn't presently be blamed for bombing Mesa.

Pros:
- Manticore wouldn't be blamed for bombing Mesa.
- Houdini wouldn't have been triggered. (Pro or Con?)
- Did their mission ultimately lead to the Alliance?
- Albrecht Detweiler and some of the Inner Onion were killed.
- The destruction of the Gamma Center.

Cons:
- Albrecht Detweiler would still be alive.
- Whatever info obtained from the mission wouldn't exist. But then, what information did the two actually gather?

None of these pros and cons are things that Honor could have used in her reasoning and some do not necessarily follow. For example, at some point Manticore would finally wake to the existence of Malign and so invade Mesa and at that point the bombs would be set off and Manticore would be blamed.

As for the questions of whether the duo brought back information which then lead to the Alliance, the emphatically positive answer is that they brought back sure knowledge of Mesa's responsibility for the nano-assassination technique, which had been the only reason for breaking off the meeting of heads of state at Torch. The information included the Malign's master plan to rule all humanity in the name of genetic improvement, which explained why they fomented war to destabilize the existing order..
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