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Tankersley and the Code Duello

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Tankersley and the Code Duello
Post by Tstir59   » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:56 am

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Hey all,

I'm going through and rereading some of the older Honorverse entries and I just got to the part where Summervale goads Tankersley into punching him. He then demands satisfaction, resulting in the captains unfortunate demise.

I remember the first time I read that portion it bothered me but I couldn't figure out why. This time through I realized that it was Summervale that demanded the duel. Now I've always understood that the challenged individual is the one to choose weapons in the duel. And sure enough I went and checked and according to the Code Duello, an 18th century codification of dueling rules in Ireland, the U.S, and Great Britain, Rule 16 states that the challenged chooses the weapon.

Because Summervale issued the challenge, Tankersley based on established dueling rules should have had the ability to choose the dueling weapons. As a coup de vitesse practitioner his hands were weapons and would seem to be the obvious choice. If he is required to choose an actual instrument then choose a quarterstalf or something for close in combat. Instead he chooses guns and the expected outcome ensues.

So I guess my question is did Weber just forget about the rules of dueling? Did he just ignore them to push the plot along? Or just as (or more) likely, I'm overlooking something. Just looking to see what y'all think as this has been a back-of-brain niggle for a few years.
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello
Post by Duckk   » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:11 pm

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Dueling in the Star Kingdom is not the same as historical dueling. It's not that David "forgot" anything, it's that dueling arose in the Star Kingdom due to its own circumstances, and consequently its own rules. Its closest analogue would be like gunslingers out in the Wild West meeting to settle things at sundown, because, when dueling arose, the Star Kingdom was very much a frontier colony system where law enforcement could be hours away.

Furthermore, Paul did have control over the protocol, as the challenged party, which is why he selected the Dreyfus protocol. Duels in the Star Kingdom were fought with firearms (hence the Wild West analogy), so there's nothing else for him to choose.

For additional context, here's an unarchived post from David regarding the origins of dueling:

While I regard that statement as one of the great and fundamental truths of the Western World, the real reason for the reemergence of dueling in the SKM is the sheer bloody-mindedness of the human creature in a frontier environment.

The SKM has always been very "2nd Amendment" friendly, largely as a result of the fairly conservative North American DNA in the original colonists, who were fleeing a Solar System in which they felt the Nanny State had become tyranical. Another consequence of their origins was that they had something of a fetish about self-reliance, standing on your own two feet, and other cliches to that effect. And they were settling on planets much of whose surfaces were then (and in HH's day still are) hazardous for the unarmed/unprotected. (Don't forget that as late as HH's time, people who go wandering in the bush on Sphinx take along some hefty firepower, and even the planet of Manticore has less than 2 billion citizens, quite a few of whom (like the majority) are concentrated in a relatively small number of urban enclaves.) In the earlier days of the SK -- post Plague but way pre-Honor -- the practice of well-armed citizens settling disputes on their own (and before the cops could respond, given some really long response envelopes) -- reemerged. It was not officially sanctioned when it did, but juries tended to refuse to convict if they could be convinced that the dearly departed "needed killing."

In time, the precedent was pretty well established that a homicide was "justifiable" as long as it was "a fair shootin'" and both sides had participated voluntarily while taking precautions to protect innocent bystanders. In other words, "If you two lunatics really want to shoot at each other, more power to you. The gene pool will be improved whichever of you we manage to remove from it!" Once it became an acceptable practice, laws were passed (beginning on Sphinx, I blush to disclose) codifying it in the interests of conrolling and minimizing it.

Honor thinks it's a Really Bad Idea (despite the fact that she's resorted to it twice herself), but not because she thinks you shouldn't be allowed to settle disputes with a certain degree of . . . finality if both parties agree. Her objection is that the shaming aspect of it has turned it into something that drives/forces/convinces otherwise putatively sane (and honorable, decent, etc.) people who otherwise would know better than to do such a stupid thing (like Paul Tankersley) into situations that get them killed by the scum of the earth. She has no objection in theory to settling things on the dueling grounds (and was willing to use the "shaming" aspect of it herself to get to Pavel Young), but is actually doing all she can currently to support the growing reform movement to abolish the practice in the SEM.

I should, perhaps, point out that she would have been entirely willing to shoot Pavel without aid of the code duello if the code hadn't been there to be used. Lord knows I love the girl, but I certainly wouldn't wamt to get on the bad side of her with blood in the water. Moderation under those circumstances is not precisely her strong suit.

Oh, and who says you can't settle disputes on Montana with a shootin' iron, Pardner?
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello
Post by Tstir59   » Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:18 pm

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Well thats what I was looking for. Thanks for the long quote. I did find it interesting however that David used the term 'code duello' in that quote without carrying the rules through with it. Maybe he meant it in the sense of a generic 'rules for dueling' versus that term which generally refers to the specific Irish Code Duello.

But in the immortal words of Star Wars... Many many years (in the future) in a galaxy far, far away... rules could obviously change a bit.
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:23 pm

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Tstir59 wrote:Well thats what I was looking for. Thanks for the long quote. I did find it interesting however that David used the term 'code duello' in that quote without carrying the rules through with it. Maybe he meant it in the sense of a generic 'rules for dueling' versus that term which generally refers to the specific Irish Code Duello.


Hello Tstir59

Welcome to the forum!

That's a good point you raised, but the most unusual thing about Summervale was that he was a professional in duelling. That's not a very healthy profession and one people would expect to have long, healthy lives to retirement.

He was clearly good. But the problem is whether he could control Murphy. The Law of Averages would eventually catch up with him, even if he didn't run into someone who was at least as good as him, if not better. So just how did he tilt the odds to his favour?
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello
Post by kzt   » Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:38 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
That's a good point you raised, but the most unusual thing about Summervale was that he was a professional in duelling. That's not a very healthy profession and one people would expect to have long, healthy lives to retirement.

He was clearly good. But the problem is whether he could control Murphy. The Law of Averages would eventually catch up with him, even if he didn't run into someone who was at least as good as him, if not better. So just how did he tilt the odds to his favour?

There is a tendency for untrained people to think they are better than they are. Just how good an expert is will come as a shock. And he was careful in his selection of targets and then vanishing afterwards.

As an example, I had a shooting instructor who talked about watching one of the legendary pistol masters shooting quarters off a fence rail at 25 yards. From the hip. Thats not the kind of skill that anyone knows how to teach. He suggested we focus on sight alignment.
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:49 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Tstir59 wrote:Well thats what I was looking for. Thanks for the long quote. I did find it interesting however that David used the term 'code duello' in that quote without carrying the rules through with it. Maybe he meant it in the sense of a generic 'rules for dueling' versus that term which generally refers to the specific Irish Code Duello.


Hello Tstir59

Welcome to the forum!

That's a good point you raised, but the most unusual thing about Summervale was that he was a professional in duelling. That's not a very healthy profession and one people would expect to have long, healthy lives to retirement.

He was clearly good. But the problem is whether he could control Murphy. The Law of Averages would eventually catch up with him, even if he didn't run into someone who was at least as good as him, if not better. So just how did he tilt the odds to his favour?

It was also made clear that the possibility of becoming a professional in duelling is an unintended loophole. Actually it wasn't even a loophole. There simply wasn't enough proof that Summervale was exploiting the system for profit. I'd like to think that even if Honor hadn't killed him he would have been arrested, eventually.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello
Post by jtg452   » Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:33 am

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kzt wrote:As an example, I had a shooting instructor who talked about watching one of the legendary pistol masters shooting quarters off a fence rail at 25 yards. From the hip. That's not the kind of skill that anyone knows how to teach. He suggested we focus on sight alignment.


Shooting pistols from the hip can be done and taught. I learned it from an instructor and have passed it on. It's all focused the fundamentals of handgun shooting (proper stance, grip, trigger press) combined with the shooter's natural ability to point where the eye is focused. the thing is, it's a progression from traditional aimed fire. If you can't shoot straight when looking down the sights because you haven't mastered the fundamentals, then you are just going to be making noise if you fire from the hip.

You don't raise your arm to eye level and aim your finger when you say, "Look at that!", you just throw it up and point. The hard parts of instinctive or 'point' shooting are learning to focus on a specific point on your target (don't just look at 'the target' but focus on the little orange dot in the center) and learning to trust your hand to be pointed at what your eye is focusing on.

I've found that pulling the elbow forward and tucking it in tight against the body front of and above the hipbone helps a lot with alignment. That gets the gun closer to the vertical line of the dominant eye and lessens the left and right variance.

Hitting quarters at 25 yards- from any position- with a hand gun is the hard part.

Few pistols are accurate enough at that range to do it consistently even when the aim is true. High dollar (like 4 digit or higher), custom built guns like the one-of 1911's from elite gunsmiths are usually only capable of 1" groups at 25 yards. "Service grade" guns like you can buy off of the shelf are usually in the 2-2 1/2" groups at 25 yards. Revolvers are more accurate with 1 1/2" being the norm at that range. Taking that into consideration, you can end up missing even when your aim is true just because of the level of mechanical accuracy the pistol in question is capable of
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello
Post by Erls   » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:13 pm

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jtg452 wrote:
kzt wrote:As an example, I had a shooting instructor who talked about watching one of the legendary pistol masters shooting quarters off a fence rail at 25 yards. From the hip. That's not the kind of skill that anyone knows how to teach. He suggested we focus on sight alignment.


I've found that pulling the elbow forward and tucking it in tight against the body front of and above the hipbone helps a lot with alignment. That gets the gun closer to the vertical line of the dominant eye and lessens the left and right variance.


Oddly enough, the same tip is key to carving a Prime Rib. When I was cooking at Glacier National Park the Sous Chef made sure that we all knew that to cut a Prime Rib straight you had to tuck the elbow into the hip keeps the arm alignment straight.
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