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_A Call to Insurrection_ coming in February 2022?

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Re: _A Call to Insurrection_ coming in February 2022?
Post by sonex   » Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:32 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:Amazon UK has just made the Kindle edition available for pre-order.

February 1st is the publication date.


Ditto for Amazon US. Preordered.

Now I need to schedule a re-read of the previous three books and finish them all in the next 21 days.


I recently ordered my Kindle version, for delivery to my Kindle Feb. 1st. USA. Amazon. Also have re-read first three books.

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Re: _A Call to Insurrection_ coming in February 2022?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:23 pm

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sonex wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Now I need to schedule a re-read of the previous three books and finish them all in the next 21 days.


I recently ordered my Kindle version, for delivery to my Kindle Feb. 1st. USA. Amazon. Also have re-read first three books.


I've just finished Part 1 of ACTD. Interesting how much more detail I can now perceive -- ACTD was my first HV novel, which meant I had missed a lot. For example, both Gryphon and Sphinx are mentioned without any context.

There's a passage, relevant to the electricity thread, that says that the wedge is powered with plasma directly from the reactors, with no turbine generating electricity in the middle.

And then there's Travis comment that a dual-drive missile would be "as long as a frigate, as expensive as a destroyer." Someone suggested putting something in the middle to prevent the interference, but of course Travis dismissed that (no concept quantum baffles yet). Which reminds me: just how does a Cataphract manage? How does the anti-ship missile's first stage manage not to misalign the impellers of the CM second stage?
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Re: _A Call to Insurrection_ coming in February 2022?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:15 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:And then there's Travis comment that a dual-drive missile would be "as long as a frigate, as expensive as a destroyer." Someone suggested putting something in the middle to prevent the interference, but of course Travis dismissed that (no concept quantum baffles yet). Which reminds me: just how does a Cataphract manage? How does the anti-ship missile's first stage manage not to misalign the impellers of the CM second stage?

We don't know for sure. I mean we know it is much longer than a normal missile; but it's not the length of a frigate. (Maybe 20% longer??)

We do know the CM 2nd stage requires a reduction in warhead size/power.

I've speculated - with nothing directly in the text to back me us - that impellers that are within the diameter of an active impeller ring are less affected by it. (That could explain why a ship's wedge doesn't misalign the impellers of it's small craft or missiles). So I'd speculate that the warhead is smaller because the 2nd stage is a smaller diameter so that the outer diameter of its drive ring is slightly smaller than the inner diameter of the 1st stage drive ring. (Which would give the Cataphract a stepped side profile; like a Saturn V)
It's also possible that a CM drive, which is described as overpowered, and which lacks the complexity of high/slow acceleration options, is simply more robust and can survive sitting closer to the normal missile impeller ring than another normal missile impeller ring could.

(FWIW not only were missile impellers far less advanced in Travis's time, but they did not yet have impeller powered counter missiles. So that style of drive wasn't an option when he was spitballing what a 2 stage missile might be like)
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Re: _A Call to Insurrection_ coming in February 2022?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:37 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:I've speculated - with nothing directly in the text to back me us - that impellers that are within the diameter of an active impeller ring are less affected by it. (That could explain why a ship's wedge doesn't misalign the impellers of it's small craft or missiles). So I'd speculate that the warhead is smaller because the 2nd stage is a smaller diameter so that the outer diameter of its drive ring is slightly smaller than the inner diameter of the 1st stage drive ring. (Which would give the Cataphract a stepped side profile; like a Saturn V)
It's also possible that a CM drive, which is described as overpowered, and which lacks the complexity of high/slow acceleration options, is simply more robust and can survive sitting closer to the normal missile impeller ring than another normal missile impeller ring could.


It can't be that simple. Travis would have known this. In fact, Lt. Cyrus would have and he'd have argued this very thing with Travis. The simplest solution to a dual drive missile problem is to attach two missiles back to back and it is what Travis said would work, aside from the cost. So if this didn't work with regular missiles, a counter-missile would have been tried next.

(FWIW not only were missile impellers far less advanced in Travis's time, but they did not yet have impeller powered counter missiles. So that style of drive wasn't an option when he was spitballing what a 2 stage missile might be like)


It isn't clear why CMs didn't exist at this time. It could be a cost issue (battles seem to consist of 1 to 3 missiles) or it could be that no wedge could be fast enough to be worth being used as a defensive solution.

But once a CM did get produced, if it was just a matter of being different / smaller than a capital ship, it should have occurred to someone. This might be a Black Swan technology case -- obvious in hindsight, but unexpected before it. I just think the explanation is too simple.

It's possible the cost of a Cataphract does approach that of a frigate. For the SLN, this wouldn't be a problem. Moreover, material strength may have increased considerably in the next 350 years, meaning the cost wouldn't be as much as Travis estimated. Compensators may also contribute to lower the stress and thus cost. It wouldn't explain the need for the separation of the impeller rings, but maybe it's a combination of all of these and a few more things. Because they wouldn't have happened at the same time, no one would have thought to try again something that had been tested before and found lacking. Add to that the fact the SLN wouldn't have invested in this research for the past 100 years and the PN didn't have the resources to do it on their own.

Then it would be a Black Swan technology.
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Re: _A Call to Insurrection_ coming in February 2022?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:39 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
It isn't clear why CMs didn't exist at this time. It could be a cost issue (battles seem to consist of 1 to 3 missiles) or it could be that no wedge could be fast enough to be worth being used as a defensive solution.
Presumably, at least in part, for the same reasons Grayson didn't have them in Honor of the Queen -- the smallest impeller missile their technology could build was much too large to be carried in sufficient numbers for self-defense.
Honor of the Queen - Ch. 14 wrote:For all that, their energy weapons were pitiful by modern standards, and their missiles were almost worse. Their point defense missiles used reaction drives, for God’s sake! That had stunned Courvosier—until he discovered that their smallest impeller missile massed over a hundred and twenty tons. That was fifty percent more than a Manticoran ship-killer, much less a point defense missile, which explained why they had to accept shorter-ranged, less capable counter missiles. At least they were small enough to carry in worthwhile numbers

When even the RMN's most modern light cruiser HMS Casey can only carry IIRC a dozen of so impeller missiles you wouldn't want to 'waste' half of them on self-defense.
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Re: _A Call to Insurrection_ coming in February 2022?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:19 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:When even the RMN's most modern light cruiser HMS Casey can only carry IIRC a dozen of so impeller missiles you wouldn't want to 'waste' half of them on self-defense.


Indeed, though that's a light cruiser. A BC would have more, but it might still not be able to carry impeller CMs.

I'm still trying to map what kind of armament they have. The HMS Vanguard BC was described as having an axial laser (Laser One). Is that the only light-speed weapon they carry, or just the biggest gun?

Another question was just how big HMS Phobos was. The Triumph-class BC was 180,000 tonnes. Each of the two sloops would be less than half of it, but we're still talking around 60-75k tonnes. HMS Casey is 73k tonnes as a light cruiser. Is it possible they are indeed the size of cruisers of the era? I guess it is, and they got the classification of sloop because they weren't hyper-capable.
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Re: _A Call to Insurrection_ coming in February 2022?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:09 pm

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A Call to Duty, Ch. 24 wrote:There wasn't much to see, Travis realized, especially given that the battlecruiser was still end-on to Guardian's flank, the position Commodore Flanders and Captain Eigen had agreed on earlier. Saintonge's bow endcap was foremost, her bristling armament of autocannon, counter-missiles, and internal X-ray laser almost casually pointed in Guardian's direction. Behind the endcap the tip of one of the battlecruiser's missile launchers was visible, peeking coyly at the universe. Further afte, the dorsal and ventral radiator fins from her forward fusion plant jutted out high over the hull, while behind them the matching set of radiators from the aft plant were also visible. The image included some infrared, and it was readily apparent that only the aft reactor was running hot.


Bold mine.

So they did have CMs back then. It's entirely possible that those were somewhat new and still expensive, as speculated, meaning that a top-of-the-line RHN battlecruiser like Saintonge might have them, but older ships, especially RMN's hundred-year-old BCs wouldn't.

One other detail: a few chapters before, they discussed how the top-of-the-line Solarian missiles would be restricted to Solarian battlecruisers, with no word on battleships. We know from the next book that Gustav Anderman had the first BB, the SMS Vergeltung. It's more than likely the SLN began building theirs at this time, but they would only have a handful at this time.
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Re: _A Call to Insurrection_ coming in February 2022?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:46 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
A Call to Duty, Ch. 24 wrote:There wasn't much to see, Travis realized, especially given that the battlecruiser was still end-on to Guardian's flank, the position Commodore Flanders and Captain Eigen had agreed on earlier. Saintonge's bow endcap was foremost, her bristling armament of autocannon, counter-missiles, and internal X-ray laser almost casually pointed in Guardian's direction. Behind the endcap the tip of one of the battlecruiser's missile launchers was visible, peeking coyly at the universe. Further afte, the dorsal and ventral radiator fins from her forward fusion plant jutted out high over the hull, while behind them the matching set of radiators from the aft plant were also visible. The image included some infrared, and it was readily apparent that only the aft reactor was running hot.


Bold mine.

So they did have CMs back then. It's entirely possible that those were somewhat new and still expensive, as speculated, meaning that a top-of-the-line RHN battlecruiser like Saintonge might have them, but older ships, especially RMN's hundred-year-old BCs wouldn't.

One other detail: a few chapters before, they discussed how the top-of-the-line Solarian missiles would be restricted to Solarian battlecruisers, with no word on battleships. We know from the next book that Gustav Anderman had the first BB, the SMS Vergeltung. It's more than likely the SLN began building theirs at this time, but they would only have a handful at this time.

Note that, like the Grayson CMs of HotQ, these appear to be chemical rocket missiles that lack a wedge to sweep incoming missile fire. So they'd need impact or possible a proximity kill from a fragmentation warhead to stop the inbound shipkiller.

A Call to Arms wrote:“Analysis complete, Admiral,” Imbar announced as he hovered over Tactical Officer Clymes’s shoulder. “Similar countermissiles as ours, with about a thirteen-hundred-klick range, and similar autocannon loads.”
Gensonne scowled. So the Manticorans’ countermissiles had a shade less range than the equipment aboard Copperhead and Adder.

A Call to Arms wrote:ixty seconds before the incoming missiles’ projected impact, Copperhead and Adder would launch a salvo of countermissiles into the path of the incoming weapons. Forty-five seconds after that, all six Volsung ships would open up with their autocannon in an effort to stop any missiles that made it through the countermissile gauntlet.

A Call to Arms wrote:The standard counter-move—the only counter-move possible—was for all ships to have already opened fire with autocannon and countermissiles, creating a hopefully impenetrable wall of metal.

At 60 seconds to reach only 1,300 km you're looking at about a 75 gee acceleration; a hell of a lot less than the 3,500 gees of the wedge powered shipkillers being thrown around in that same battle. That 75 gee is within the capabilities of an advanced chemical propellant -- especially if it gets a bit of help by way of an initial kick from the launch tube.
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Re: _A Call to Insurrection_ coming in February 2022?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:18 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:At 60 seconds to reach only 1,300 km you're looking at about a 75 gee acceleration; a hell of a lot less than the 3,500 gees of the wedge powered shipkillers being thrown around in that same battle. That 75 gee is within the capabilities of an advanced chemical propellant -- especially if it gets a bit of help by way of an initial kick from the launch tube.


True, thanks for the analysis.

Just a note that mag-rail launch tubes weren't common at this time. Casey was one of the first ships with them and the Andermani, who would conceivably at this time be at the forefront of military tech, were suitably impressed.
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Re: _A Call to Insurrection_ coming in February 2022?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:11 pm

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Another thing that I noticed: turning of ships with and without wedge. When their wedges were coming up, HMS Guardian and RHNS Saintonge (under pirate control) were racing to see would complete their manoeuvres first. Guardian was turning so she could bring her missile tubes, both of which faced forward, to bear on the battlecruiser, while the latter was trying to interpose its still-coming-up wedge. Both were in orbit around Marienbad, the inhabited planet of the Secour system.

Now, here's the interesting part: as soon as Guardian's wedge finished coming up, which it did first, it was able to use the wedge to manoeuvre itself, specifically, to pitch and yaw. It was also faster than what was happening before, the sluggish manoeuvre of the attitude thrusters. It is possible the attitude thrusters were having a difficult time because of the wedge that was still forming, and would have turned the ship more quickly if there had been no wedge, but that's irrelevant (no ship fights with wedge down).

The important part is that the wedge can be used to rotate the ship around at least two axes. It's possible that and the forward direction of acceleration are all its capable of (1+2 degrees of motion), but it's equally possible it can do all six. If it can do that, then it can evade in any direction too. Even if it can't directly accelerate perpendicularly to the direction of the acceleration vector, the fact that the wedge can pitch and yaw still means the ship can evade in those directions.

Or maybe five and a half degrees: ships do need to turn over for deceleration. Does that mean a real turning of the ship (pitching or yawing 180°, or a combination of both resulting in the same thing), or simply changing the direction of the acceleration vector? They do say "turnover" but that could be a left-over from when ships used reaction engines. Do we get an explicit explanation either way somewhere?
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