Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 24 guests

Query; The Young court martial and Hemphill

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Query; The Young court martial and Hemphill
Post by Jeslis   » Mon May 17, 2021 4:10 pm

Jeslis
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:53 pm

So, on yet another re-read it struck me that Hemphill was someone who was... if not on the Youngs' side, then being blackmailed by them.

Did we ever learn what Hemphills deep dark secret was? Was it just party politics and not blackmail?

The reason this whole bit strikes me as odd is.. White Haven obviously knows (after the trial) that something is seriously wrong with her (and the other 2 pro young voters of course)... Yet later in the series, Hemphill is still a trusted personage... What happened?
Top
Re: Query; The Young court martial and Hemphill
Post by Michael Everett   » Mon May 17, 2021 5:18 pm

Michael Everett
Admiral

Posts: 2566
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:54 am
Location: Bristol, England

Jeslis wrote:So, on yet another re-read it struck me that Hemphill was someone who was... if not on the Youngs' side, then being blackmailed by them.

Did we ever learn what Hemphills deep dark secret was? Was it just party politics and not blackmail?

The reason this whole bit strikes me as odd is.. White Haven obviously knows (after the trial) that something is seriously wrong with her (and the other 2 pro young voters of course)... Yet later in the series, Hemphill is still a trusted personage... What happened?

I can't immediately recall, but I think we had a WOG that Hemphill knew the war against Haven was for survival and that internal strife in Manticore could doom the Star Kingdom. Lord Young's comments significantly implied that he would supply such strife should his son be convicted (and executed) but also indicated that he would throw his weight behind the war (bringing everyone he had material on with him) should his son remain alive, thus reinforcing the government's ability to prosecute the war.
Hemphill's compromise would have caused him to, after a brief tantrum, at least not oppose the War, but his heart wasn't up to the shock of seeing his Heir thrown out of the Navy, so he passed away and Pavel wasn't aware of the unspoken bargain, so went off on his own (brief) path.

I could be wrong (and probably am in the details), but I think that's how it went...
~~~~~~

I can't write anywhere near as well as Weber
But I try nonetheless, And even do my own artwork.

(Now on Twitter)and mentioned by RFC!
ACNH Dreams at DA-6594-0940-7995
Top
Re: Query; The Young court martial and Hemphill
Post by SharkHunter   » Mon May 17, 2021 5:19 pm

SharkHunter
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1601
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:53 pm
Location: Independence, Missouri

Jeslis wrote:So, on yet another re-read it struck me that Hemphill was someone who was... if not on the Youngs' side, then being blackmailed by them.

Did we ever learn what Hemphills deep dark secret was? Was it just party politics and not blackmail?

The reason this whole bit strikes me as odd is.. White Haven obviously knows (after the trial) that something is seriously wrong with her (and the other 2 pro young voters of course)... Yet later in the series, Hemphill is still a trusted personage... What happened?
Remember that Hemphill is related to a very corrupt senior admiral, namely Janacek, who is up to his eyebrows in the "Conservative Association", and who got Honor posted to Basilisk, where Young tried to ruin her career. So her initial impressions of HH's abilities aren't accurate, and then Honor really lays into the shortcomings inflicted on Fearless CL-56 before the Weapon's Development Board. Probably didn't make any "bosum buddy/BFF" points there, right?

Later on (after Young is dead), Sonya's development of the "super LAC(s), MDM missiles, HMMC Wayfarer and her siblings, etc. lead to the strategic edge the RMN needs... and equally important to the Harringtons, she and Honor essentially apologized to each other.
---------------------
All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
Top
Re: Query; The Young court martial and Hemphill
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon May 17, 2021 5:42 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 7000
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

SharkHunter wrote: Remember that Hemphill is related to a very corrupt senior admiral, namely Janacek, who is up to his eyebrows in the "Conservative Association", and who got Honor posted to Basilisk, where Young tried to ruin her career. So her initial impressions of HH's abilities aren't accurate, and then Honor really lays into the shortcomings inflicted on Fearless CL-56 before the Weapon's Development Board. Probably didn't make any "bosum buddy/BFF" points there, right?

Later on (after Young is dead), Sonya's development of the "super LAC(s), MDM missiles, HMMC Wayfarer and her siblings, etc. lead to the strategic edge the RMN needs... and equally important to the Harringtons, she and Honor essentially apologized to each other.

And IIRC Sonya's loyalty to the Conservatives Association was more a mater of family and habit that a deeply analyzed political belief. But she was at least initially willing to follow the approach they were pushing; that Young was innocent on a technicality. I don't think Dimitri had anything on her specifically in his files; or at least not anything truthful.

And ultimately, she was will to deviate from the party line far enough to get Young drummed out of the service in humiliation, even if she wasn't willing to vote for the capital punishment's his actions self-evidently demanded.

And that compromise she brokered to keep Young alive did sidestep the very real possibility that Dimitri might have driven the Conservatives Coalition (and other politicos he had, or invented, dirt on) to go through with their threats to prevent Manticore from reacting militarily to Haven's surprise attack on them. That would have almost assuredly triggered a really nasty constitutional crisis as Beth tried to safeguard Manticore over the obstruction of the House of Lords.


So I suspect, even given Young's later actions, that being willing to be the one to break ranks enough to cashier him helped her remain trusted later into the series.

Plus as a major tech nerd who focused on that to pretty much the exclusion of politics, and wouldn't play games with weapons development just to suit party politics, there'd be no reason to distrust her running weapons research and development. Sometimes her doctrinal desires for the navy seem, with the benefit of hindsight, to have been less than entirely correct. But she was honest about them, and didn't seem unwilling to have good faith discussions over doctrine and weapons.
Top
Re: Query; The Young court martial and Hemphill
Post by Jeslis   » Mon May 17, 2021 5:55 pm

Jeslis
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:53 pm

Thank you all for the replies! I think that definitely covers it! :D
Top
Re: Query; The Young court martial and Hemphill
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon May 17, 2021 11:22 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2005
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

Jonathan_S wrote:Plus as a major tech nerd who focused on that to pretty much the exclusion of politics, and wouldn't play games with weapons development just to suit party politics, there'd be no reason to distrust her running weapons research and development. Sometimes her doctrinal desires for the navy seem, with the benefit of hindsight, to have been less than entirely correct. But she was honest about them, and didn't seem unwilling to have good faith discussions over doctrine and weapons.


We do know two more things on her background: she was arrogant and had a very high opinion of herself, and she had a past of butting heads with White Haven. Those two facts probably meant she made up her mind and was unwilling to change it, especially since White Haven wanted her to.
Top
Re: Query; The Young court martial and Hemphill
Post by Louis R   » Tue May 18, 2021 12:19 am

Louis R
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1223
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:25 pm

Ummm...

In her defence, a lot of the head-butting - and the apparent arrogance associated with it - came from the fact that White Have _was_ wrong in many of his arguments, she knew it, and she knew _why_ he was wrong. And she couldn't say a word to the point. The frustration must have been deadly.

To make things even more complicated, there actually were many elements on which White Haven _wasn't_ wrong, and she was, but because they couldn't have a fully informed discussion there was no way to work through the issues and reach common ground. Which, in the end, came mighty close to being fatal for Manticore: if Esther hadn't obliged by laying on a test run for a big chunk of the new kit it could have taken another 4-5 years to get it deployed because it was just too different from the norm that had become established because WH & Co. had come out on top. A norm that had proven rather successful in the beginning, but was already running out of steam.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Plus as a major tech nerd who focused on that to pretty much the exclusion of politics, and wouldn't play games with weapons development just to suit party politics, there'd be no reason to distrust her running weapons research and development. Sometimes her doctrinal desires for the navy seem, with the benefit of hindsight, to have been less than entirely correct. But she was honest about them, and didn't seem unwilling to have good faith discussions over doctrine and weapons.


We do know two more things on her background: she was arrogant and had a very high opinion of herself, and she had a past of butting heads with White Haven. Those two facts probably meant she made up her mind and was unwilling to change it, especially since White Haven wanted her to.
Top
Re: Query; The Young court martial and Hemphill
Post by cthia   » Tue May 18, 2021 4:39 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13377
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

It was all about momentum. Sometimes you simply have to pick your battles. Hemphill had to wrestle with the same unsavory element which Beth had to face when she couldn't intercede on Honor's behalf before she was "banished" to Grayson.

There are times when the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Query; The Young court martial and Hemphill
Post by Theemile   » Tue May 18, 2021 8:25 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4339
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

Another point - she had been given her job by King Roger and his Brother in law. The three of them had started Project Gram and everything that led to Manticore's edge. It's never been stated, but she probably saw her dogged pursuit of those technologies as the task left for her by them, and she was fulfilling their legacy in the task.

Having the knowledge that this is truly your leader's secret plan does focus your vision slightly and illuminate your path - and make you seem arrogent to others who are not on the inside.



ThinksMarkedly wrote:
We do know two more things on her background: she was arrogant and had a very high opinion of herself, and she had a past of butting heads with White Haven. Those two facts probably meant she made up her mind and was unwilling to change it, especially since White Haven wanted her to.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Query; The Young court martial and Hemphill
Post by cthia   » Tue May 18, 2021 9:11 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13377
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Theemile wrote:Another point - she had been given her job by King Roger and his Brother in law. The three of them had started Project Gram and everything that led to Manticore's edge. It's never been stated, but she probably saw her dogged pursuit of those technologies as the task left for her by them, and she was fulfilling their legacy in the task.

Having the knowledge that this is truly your leader's secret plan does focus your vision slightly and illuminate your path - and make you seem arrogent to others who are not on the inside.



ThinksMarkedly wrote:
We do know two more things on her background: she was arrogant and had a very high opinion of herself, and she had a past of butting heads with White Haven. Those two facts probably meant she made up her mind and was unwilling to change it, especially since White Haven wanted her to.

Very good point! Hemphill was certainly focused. Perhaps more than anyone else. She took Project Gram absolutely seriously.

I always wondered just how arrogant Hemphill actually was. Or was everyone's characterization of her actually rantings of idiots born out of the lack of understanding her purpose. It was the same misconception, I suspect, which plagued Shannon.

At any rate, Honor must have felt the entire universe was "misaligning" itself with the likes of Young.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top

Return to Honorverse