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Do anti-genies have a point?

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Do anti-genies have a point?
Post by Puidwen   » Wed May 05, 2021 10:20 pm

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I know world of god says no, but...

1. The Harringtion family. Both Honor and her father have sociopath tendencies they have to keep a tight leash on.
2. Scrags, very well know for their arrogance. Although that could be just how their raised by other Scrags.
3. The ballroom. See some their more extreme terrorist activities. although once again that could just be their very justified grievance.
4. And finally the Messan alignment itself. A group who thought a take over the galaxy conspiracy , almost straight out of a bad holo-novel, was a good idea.
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Re: Do anti-genies have a point?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed May 05, 2021 11:04 pm

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Puidwen wrote:I know world of god says no, but...

1. The Harringtion family. Both Honor and her father have sociopath tendencies they have to keep a tight leash on.


How about the rest of the family? You're talking about a sample of two in a very large family. Those two are also directly related, one having raised the other so certain attitudes may have been taught (nature vs nurture). And both were in the military, which both indicates certain aptitudes (learnt or inherent) and reinforces said attitudes.

2. Scrags, very well know for their arrogance. Although that could be just how their raised by other Scrags.


Agreed on the second point. Very clearly they keep telling themselves they are superior to everyone else.

3. The ballroom. See some their more extreme terrorist activities. although once again that could just be their very justified grievance.


Again, that's both expected and cherry-picking data. Not all escaped slaves join the Ballroom: take Paulo's family for example. An organised resistance is also going to recruit certain types of people, those with most resentment and the against those oppressing them.

Plus, armed revolt by escaped slaves is not new in the Ballroom. Take as example the Haitian Revolution of 1804: no one is going to claim those people had genetic modification predisposing them to revolt.

4. And finally the Messan alignment itself. A group who thought a take over the galaxy conspiracy , almost straight out of a bad holo-novel, was a good idea.


True now. But when the Alignment was created, they weren't yet genetically modified. So not only is this not an example, it's a counter-example.
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Re: Do anti-genies have a point?
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Thu May 06, 2021 1:31 am

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Puidwen wrote:I know world of god says no, but...

1. The Harringtion family. Both Honor and her father have sociopath tendencies they have to keep a tight leash on.
2. Scrags, very well know for their arrogance. Although that could be just how their raised by other Scrags.
3. The ballroom. See some their more extreme terrorist activities. although once again that could just be their very justified grievance.
4. And finally the Messan alignment itself. A group who thought a take over the galaxy conspiracy , almost straight out of a bad holo-novel, was a good idea.


The voice of god (as expressed by Allison) is that trying to enhance intelligence often comes with hot tempers. Thus the blood rages that the Harrington family is vulnerable to (for that matter, Elizabeth Winton is known for hot temper as well).
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Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Do anti-genies have a point?
Post by SharkHunter   » Sat May 08, 2021 1:27 pm

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At this point in the Honorverse, I would say "maybe a point", but not a leg to stand on. A huge percentage of many systems are "genies" at this point --> within the SEM we have Sphinx, Trevor's Star, Grayson, bits of the Andermani empire, Meyerdahl, Mesa (just the citizenry, not the MAlign or onion), Torch... and possibly anyone pretty much saved on Old Earth by Beowulf post "Final War".
We also have the "genetic slaves", etc. who are arguably victims, even if they have "enhancements". Beowulf et. al are all about being the kind edge of mercy if if the "Biologic Survey Corp" is a different sort of organization.

We even have the House of Winton and virtually any system with prolong. These folks and their generations don't just disappear because of an us vs. them Luddite mentality.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Do anti-genies have a point?
Post by cthia   » Tue May 11, 2021 9:22 am

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Of course they have a point! Certainly, if there is anything to "natural selection." Only the strong survive.

It essentially comes down to mutants against non-mutants, humans against inhumans in every encounter. Even a brawl in a bar, a fender bender, or simply a confrontation to uphold your lady's honor.

Is there always going to be full disclosure? Of course not! Look what happened on Grayson. Manslaughter? Murder?

Even Elizabeth Winton keeps her genie secrets under wraps.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Do anti-genies have a point?
Post by cthia   » Wed May 12, 2021 7:28 am

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Imagine that the universe has been saddled with the lowest despicable creep imaginable, who also happens to be, unfortunately, a genie equal to Honor. Like, OMG, Pavel Young.

If genies have no morals, scruples or values, or, if those morals, scruples or values are corrupted or misaligned, then mankind as we know it is doomed. And this threat to mankind must be exterminated. To ensure complete eradication of the bad elements, ALL genies must be eradicated. This could become the mindset of a "genetically pure man." In a nutshell, these are the fears of the MA.

One of my friends long ago kept harping on an inevitable battle between genies and non-genies. And that it will culminate in a sort of truce and Mason-Dixon line drawn in space separating the species. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Do anti-genies have a point?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed May 12, 2021 9:29 pm

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cthia wrote:Imagine that the universe has been saddled with the lowest despicable creep imaginable, who also happens to be, unfortunately, a genie equal to Honor. Like, OMG, Pavel Young.

If genies have no morals, scruples or values, or, if those morals, scruples or values are corrupted or misaligned, then mankind as we know it is doomed. And this threat to mankind must be exterminated. To ensure complete eradication of the bad elements, ALL genies must be eradicated. This could become the mindset of a "genetically pure man." In a nutshell, these are the fears of the MA.

One of my friends long ago kept harping on an inevitable battle between genies and non-genies. And that it will culminate in a sort of truce and Mason-Dixon line drawn in space separating the species. LOL


I don't know if you meant battle in HV or in real life or other universes.

In the HV, David has said time and again that the genetic improvement of humanity part of Leonard Detweiler's wish has actually been accomplished and his ideas vindicated. It's just taken far longer than he was prepared to accept and required far more education and consent than he was willing to allow. We see all kinds of genies everywhere, as this thread has shown. But they're not supermen anywhere and, aside from residual prejudices, living completely in the open. The Winton gene mods, for example, must be common knowledge in the SKM/SEM for anyone willing to look it up. And yet we haven't seen a popular uprising against the monarch.

The exception to that are those who do think themselves superior (the Alignment and the Scrags). And we know the Scrags aren't actually superior. We do know that the Alignment star lines do have improvements over the average human, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they overestimate themselves too.
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Re: Do anti-genies have a point?
Post by cthia   » Thu May 13, 2021 12:34 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Imagine that the universe has been saddled with the lowest despicable creep imaginable, who also happens to be, unfortunately, a genie equal to Honor. Like, OMG, Pavel Young.

If genies have no morals, scruples or values, or, if those morals, scruples or values are corrupted or misaligned, then mankind as we know it is doomed. And this threat to mankind must be exterminated. To ensure complete eradication of the bad elements, ALL genies must be eradicated. This could become the mindset of a "genetically pure man." In a nutshell, these are the fears of the MA.

One of my friends long ago kept harping on an inevitable battle between genies and non-genies. And that it will culminate in a sort of truce and Mason-Dixon line drawn in space separating the species. LOL


I don't know if you meant battle in HV or in real life or other universes.

In the HV, David has said time and again that the genetic improvement of humanity part of Leonard Detweiler's wish has actually been accomplished and his ideas vindicated. It's just taken far longer than he was prepared to accept and required far more education and consent than he was willing to allow. We see all kinds of genies everywhere, as this thread has shown. But they're not supermen anywhere and, aside from residual prejudices, living completely in the open. The Winton gene mods, for example, must be common knowledge in the SKM/SEM for anyone willing to look it up. And yet we haven't seen a popular uprising against the monarch.

The exception to that are those who do think themselves superior (the Alignment and the Scrags). And we know the Scrags aren't actually superior. We do know that the Alignment star lines do have improvements over the average human, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they overestimate themselves too.

I would imagine his ideas were vindicated long before they even entered his head. There were genies all over the galaxy, but there was never any need for his extreme measures.

But none of that has anything to do with the question of this thread. His extreme measures and the dangers of genies to non-genies - the flip side of the improvement - is exactly what the thread is about.

Nobody doubted the benefits of genetic improvement. Especially Beowulf. What was doubted is the extreme lengths which some were willing to go. Earth's Final Wars is Exhibit A.

Mankind is an egotistical creature. The Scrags are a perfect example. Non-genies will always be exposed to a real, unnatural danger from interacting with genies. At least one knows what he is facing with a hexapuma.

To a genetically pure human, genies carry around built-in weapons which they are born with. Oftentimes invisible to the naked eye. Imagine your genetically pure child unknowingly getting into a fight with a genie who tears him a new head.

Do you have any textev that the recipe for Beth's genetic soup is public knowledge? She certainly does not broadcast it. Is it even widely known that the Wintons are genies?

There hasn't been an uprising against the Wintons because they rule with a hefty sprinkling of morals, scruples, and values. Honor said it best when she informed Beth that she needed to know the Queen she served is worthy. But, is that a rare trait in the galaxy amongst genies as a whole? The MAlign certainly lowers the overall grade of genies by a lot. Heck, because of the MA, the lot of them need to be graded on a curve. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Do anti-genies have a point?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu May 13, 2021 11:54 am

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cthia wrote:But none of that has anything to do with the question of this thread. His extreme measures and the dangers of genies to non-genies - the flip side of the improvement - is exactly what the thread is about.

Nobody doubted the benefits of genetic improvement. Especially Beowulf. What was doubted is the extreme lengths which some were willing to go. Earth's Final Wars is Exhibit A.

Mankind is an egotistical creature. The Scrags are a perfect example. Non-genies will always be exposed to a real, unnatural danger from interacting with genies. At least one knows what he is facing with a hexapuma.

To a genetically pure human, genies carry around built-in weapons which they are born with. Oftentimes invisible to the naked eye. Imagine your genetically pure child unknowingly getting into a fight with a genie who tears him a new head.


And I submit that there will be exterior characteristics for most genetic changes, like strength. You can't simply have far more effective muscles without adding body mass. The first Travis Crisis in A Call To Duty after he enlisted was the Coookie Theft Problem, where a Sphinxian was fed exactly the same as everyone else and yet had higher nutrient requirement needs, so he resorted to stealing cookies to supplement his diet. Chuck was also big (tall, broad). There was nothing inconspicuous about him needing more energy.

So why is your "pure child" picking a fight with someone bigger than him/her? The best case scenario I can see here is that this is a learning experience.

Further, I also submit that "pure child" and "genetically pure human" is both an oxymoron and inherently racist. It's a term that will get used only by extremist groups that fail to see the light in improvement and, like the Scrags, think that their genetic make-up make them superior over every one who isn't part of their group. They will also figure out a way to include only those people whose ideas also match theirs, regardless of whether the strict interpretation of their genetic make-up would include others or exclude some of their members.

This is important because after 2000 years of genetic manipulation at some level or another, frequently dominant characteristics, and especially after 800 years of cheap, faster-than-light interstellar travel, there are no "genetically pure" humans left, except some early-mid (but not earliest) isolated colonies that left Earth because of this trend. Like Grayson was meant to be.

Do you have any textev that the recipe for Beth's genetic soup is public knowledge? She certainly does not broadcast it. Is it even widely known that the Wintons are genies?

There hasn't been an uprising against the Wintons because they rule with a hefty sprinkling of morals, scruples, and values. Honor said it best when she informed Beth that she needed to know the Queen she served is worthy. But, is that a rare trait in the galaxy amongst genies as a whole? The MAlign certainly lowers the overall grade of genies by a lot. Heck, because of the MA, the lot of them need to be graded on a curve. LOL


No, there isn't any textev for the recipe being public knowledge. I had meant that the fact the Wintons have mods is known, not the extent of what they are and what the recipe is. Any way, this and what I said above, are speculation of mine, based on my interpretation of the text and reading between the lines. There were discussions that touched this subject in some of the Crown of Slaves books and it didn't seem that any one was surprised.

Anyway, taking your last paragraph: the important thing is how they behave, not the content of their genes. And I submit that there is no high correlation between genies and arrogant behaviour: there will be arrogant supremacists like the Alignment whether they're genies or not and there are benevolent and informed leaders and citizens that are genies and not.
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Re: Do anti-genies have a point?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat May 15, 2021 1:22 pm

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Anti-Genies are a variation of racists. On the other hand, there has always been envy and fear (either both etc) of anything different than somebody's notion of normal. Smarter than you? Better at X than you or your group. Have a resource or are more (at least appear more) successful than your group?
It doesn't end.
Sneaky, conniving, ratlike OFS Govenors like Verreccio who are masters of that bureaucratic mess and routinely get people killed and steal almost anything that isn't nailed down are also different and we generally tend to hate them when we discover them but a not genies....just the product of a lack of (our) generally accepted morals and monumental greed and lust for power.

If you want to go to some heavy gravity world that makes San Martin look like a health spa for 98lb weaklings and challenge a 5th generation inhabitant who is the local olympic wresting champion to a match.....good luck to you but don't hate them because they have some difference that lets them stand up on that planet, let alone compete in a physical intensive sport.
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