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Escort Carrier Modification

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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sun May 30, 2021 6:54 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's not to say that some navies may ill-advisedly order some, due to faulty logic or some other interests having sway. Or, as we discussed, because it was the only unit the could afford in the first place (or the only unit available for sale), even if it was all wrong for their needs and will eventually cost more. The used frigate salesmen do need to make a living, after all.

Your last sentence is probably how we'd ever see frigates in use. Manticore ditched theirs less than 50 years ago, and presumably other navies ditched theirs about the same time - but a second or third hand warship that's long in the tooth is still cheaper than buying new, and some needy remote system would probably pay more than scrap value for them if given the opportunity. If your budget limits you to 3-4 used up old destroyers or 5-6 used up old frigates, you might be tempted to buy the greater number of hulls rather than the more capable hulls. Especially if you can depend on conscription to keep them manned.
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Fox2!   » Sun May 30, 2021 9:17 pm

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cthia wrote:So, if destroyers are used as they were historically, they'll need more endurance.

.


Or something to UNREP from.
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by cthia   » Sun May 30, 2021 11:35 pm

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I really can't believe nobody can accept that a navy's logistics could depend on greatly extended cruising endurance.

Does anyone know what ships comprised the very first RMN? Back when King Roger may have been pinching pennies to afford a real crown?

Eventually they needed FFs, but you can't envision another navy wearing their hand-me-down shoes?

Strategic shoes that is.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Daryl   » Mon May 31, 2021 6:43 am

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One way to consider this, is if we at this moment had a space capable adversary arrive in the solar system, we would be helpless. In the same way, in the Honorverse, a colonised planet with no space going military capability would be helpless if a single poorly equipped pirate was to turn up.
Even an old couple of frigates might be enough to convince them that the risk of damage was too high.
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon May 31, 2021 3:44 pm

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cthia wrote:I really can't believe nobody can accept that a navy's logistics could depend on greatly extended cruising endurance.
We can. We just thing the vast majority of navies that need ships that cruise for half a year without resupply are big and capable enough that they'll use the real warships that are designed for that: CLs, CAs, and/or BCs. (Even modern destroyers have nearly the cruising endurance of a classic frigate; as the larger hulls they've been forced to adopt to fit in the weapons/defenses needed to remain survivable means thanks to cube/square law their interior volume grew even faster; so they can carry much more fuel/supplies than a destroyer of a century ago while still carrying enough weapons to be effective in combat)

A frigate isn't uniquely long ranged. It's only unique for it's range in its historic size category. It's a warship that gave up something like 30-50% of its combat power to squeeze in nearly the fuel and stores of a cruiser into a hull smaller than most of its contemporary destroyers.

And they were obsolete even 60 years ago. Not many navies need a ship that can cruise for ages but will lose a fight to any other warship built in the last half century, to a handful of LACs, or even to a fair number of pirates.

(They may still end up with them, thanks to that being what they can afford on the used market)



But basically if you can't afford a modern destroyer, or an older CL, then you really don't have any business sending one of your handful of warships off on a 6 months or more cruise through hostile territory (And if it was through friendly or neutral territory then you wouldn't need as much inherent range as you could buy supplies at ports along the way)
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon May 31, 2021 3:58 pm

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Daryl wrote:One way to consider this, is if we at this moment had a space capable adversary arrive in the solar system, we would be helpless. In the same way, in the Honorverse, a colonised planet with no space going military capability would be helpless if a single poorly equipped pirate was to turn up.
Even an old couple of frigates might be enough to convince them that the risk of damage was too high.

Sure. However a few old LACs would do at least as well, and they'd be cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate than a couple old frigates.

If you're buying your first warships LACs give you the best defensive bang for the buck.


(Also don't forget that with just a pair of warships odds are that sooner or later both will be down for refit/repair/maintenance at the same time - and then you don't have a defense force. If you keep them close to home you can get away with just 2 for a while [assuming nothing major breaks unexpectedly] until the first one needs its first major overhaul. But then then you're unlikely to finish the overhaul before the 2nd needs to come in for maintenance)
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:02 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Daryl wrote:One way to consider this, is if we at this moment had a space capable adversary arrive in the solar system, we would be helpless. In the same way, in the Honorverse, a colonised planet with no space going military capability would be helpless if a single poorly equipped pirate was to turn up.
Even an old couple of frigates might be enough to convince them that the risk of damage was too high.

Sure. However a few old LACs would do at least as well, and they'd be cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate than a couple old frigates.

If you're buying your first warships LACs give you the best defensive bang for the buck.


(Also don't forget that with just a pair of warships odds are that sooner or later both will be down for refit/repair/maintenance at the same time - and then you don't have a defense force. If you keep them close to home you can get away with just 2 for a while [assuming nothing major breaks unexpectedly] until the first one needs its first major overhaul. But then then you're unlikely to finish the overhaul before the 2nd needs to come in for maintenance)

But LACs are as useless as your appendix when it comes to escort duty. LACs cannot accompany the freighters to the point of sale. A polity may opt for ships which are cheap, logical and appropriate for all of its logistics in the short term. The short term may be all an entity can afford before it begins to walk on two legs like an infant.

I disagree that the acquisition of Frigates will necessarily represent a solution in search of a problem.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:28 pm

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A Frigate is basically an Armed Dispatch boat with an extra long cruising ability.

So very limited in actual war fighting ability.

IF the SLN the most hidebound and anti change navy in the galaxy does not use them then it is safe to say the class is pretty much useless.

now there is a use such ships, but only against very low level pirates, who will likely have a ship of simmilar mass and ability. Pirate might actually be better armed as they probably don't use so much space for fuel, ammo etc.

A properly trained navy will likely be much more capable/competent then a pirate and not find this a insurmountable problem, the RMN did manage with FF for far longer then they should have but that was more a matter of politics then desire.

Don't forget though that outside silesa and OFS plans, pirate attacks are uncomman and the need for ships that can't do much more then escorting merchies will be supplanted by the need for ships that can actually fight a proper navy warship.

so to sum it up.

Cthia you are right that FFs can do the job if they must but any navy that wants to be taken even semi seriously would much prefer to use at least DDs if not CLs in place of the frigate if they could.
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:30 pm

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Dauntless wrote:A Frigate is basically an Armed Dispatch boat with an extra long cruising ability.

So very limited in actual war fighting ability.

IF the SLN the most hidebound and anti change navy in the galaxy does not use them then it is safe to say the class is pretty much useless.

now there is a use such ships, but only against very low level pirates, who will likely have a ship of simmilar mass and ability. Pirate might actually be better armed as they probably don't use so much space for fuel, ammo etc.

A properly trained navy will likely be much more capable/competent then a pirate and not find this a insurmountable problem, the RMN did manage with FF for far longer then they should have but that was more a matter of politics then desire.

Don't forget though that outside silesa and OFS plans, pirate attacks are uncomman and the need for ships that can't do much more then escorting merchies will be supplanted by the need for ships that can actually fight a proper navy warship.

so to sum it up.

Cthia you are right that FFs can do the job if they must but any navy that wants to be taken even semi seriously would much prefer to use at least DDs if not CLs in place of the frigate if they could.

Indeed Dauntless. I agree. I even submit that the brunt of the navies will do just that. But recall that my original warning was against making one-size-fits-all statements which would cover the extremes. The extremes being cash strapped smaller systems on the verge of nowhere which can only acquire a few warships, and they need those warships to be a "jack of all trades" with enormous endurance. The enormous firepower of DDs would definitely be welcomed by them, if they could acquire them for free. But, for now, FFs will serve ALL of their logistical needs.

But. Let us not forget these systems most redeeming quality. The fact that they have one very crucial thing going for them. Strategically, they enjoy practical proximity to SL bases.

Therefore, why try to circumvent then reinvent the wheel? Let the SLN actually earn the lordly salaries they are extorting out of them.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:58 pm

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cthia wrote:Indeed Dauntless. I agree. I even submit that the brunt of the navies will do just that. But recall that my original warning was against making one-size-fits-all statements which would cover the extremes. The extremes being cash strapped smaller systems on the verge of nowhere which can only acquire a few warships, and they need those warships to be a "jack of all trades" with enormous endurance. The enormous firepower of DDs would definitely be welcomed by them, if they could acquire them for free. But, for now, FFs will serve ALL of their logistical needs.


The thing is we're also questioning that such a system is likely to exist. A cash-strapped system in the back-end of nowhere that does business with not-so-nearby systems that it needs to send a frigate to escort a convoy (even if it's a "convoy" of a single ship) because they can't buy supplies at the destination?

Sorry, that is unlikely. If the area is so dangerous that the freighter(s) need an escort, then the likelihood of a frigate being enough is small. The chance that the destination system will allow the freighter in but not sell supplies to the warship (or even allow the warship in) is small. In fact, if they are doing business with the freighter, the freighter is buying supplies for the return journey and then they could share that with their destroyer escort.

In fact, even if this problem exists, the best ship type for the problem would be a DE (destroyer escort), not an FF.

Or just strap some weapons to the freighter, if a frigate's firepower is enough to scare the pirates coming in armed DBs and yachts.

A frigate is definitely not for system defence, because extended endurance has no business in your home system.

You know what "freighter plus armed escort to unfriendly territory" sounds like? A raid.

But. Let us not forget these systems most redeeming quality. The fact that they have one very crucial thing going for them. Strategically, they enjoy practical proximity to SL bases.

Therefore, why try to circumvent then reinvent the wheel? Let the SLN actually earn the lordly salaries they are extorting out of them.


Sure. And I can readily see the OFS governors selling used and useless frigates to systems under their tutelage, at a markup (costing as much as a CL) and splitting the difference with the previous owner and with the yard that will be contracted to refit.
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