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Escort Carrier Modification

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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by cthia   » Sat May 29, 2021 11:06 am

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The author said "no major navy" will be willing to build FFs. But as I said, any navy with a need for extended cruising endurance just might. Would the MA be considered as a "major navy?"

I can see the MA utilizing and even needing the extended endurance of FFs.



P.S.

Hi Rose! It is so good to know you survived the pandemic. I hope you graduated before having to endure college online! I don't want to post in that thread while your name is showing. It is good to see your name up in lights again. :D

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat May 29, 2021 2:03 pm

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cthia wrote:The author said "no major navy" will be willing to build FFs. But as I said, any navy with a need for extended cruising endurance just might. Would the MA be considered as a "major navy?"

I can see the MA utilizing and even needing the extended endurance of FFs.



P.S.

Hi Rose! It is so good to know you survived the pandemic. I hope you graduated before having to endure college online! I don't want to post in that thread while your name is showing. It is good to see your name up in lights again. :D

You might even argue that a Ghost is a adjacent to a frigate. Its designed to sneak around a hostile system undetected for months to sniff out and track everything worth targeting; then to deploy stealth fire control relays to help ensure the ultra-long ranged weapons launched by the larger warships are guided to those targets. And it gets its range (and stealth) by ruthlessly trading away it's offensive (and most of its defensive) capabilities.

It's a bit more extreme than a frigate; but following the same trajectory of taking a warship and prioritizing other items, including range, over direct combat capability.


However, I can't see the MAlign bothering with conventional impeller powered frigates. Those aren't stealthy enough to be sure of remaining undetected by enemy forces; and yet weak enough to be at serious risk even in systems defended only by old-style LACS. That makes them seem a poor offensive instrument for the MAlign, but the MAlign doesn't have far flung shipping interests than need anti-piracy protection. And the MAlign does have better units for long range scouting (the Ghosts).
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat May 29, 2021 4:59 pm

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Do they need a new class of warship?

Is it possible- now that Destroyers are becoming very large, that a ship class dedicated to convoy protection would be workable and have the endurance/range & combat power to deal both with your garden variety pirate AND "small" present level SLN tech warships.....and call it a Destroyer Escort?

And "when" something is developed that can detect spider drive ships, perhaps we will need a "Spider Wasp" type ship that is optimized for spider hunting and may or may not be hyper-capable. I phrase it that way as it seems likely that the spider-drive ships are going to hang outside of hyperlimits and if you are going to play out there you are going to need to be able to move with hyperdrive.
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat May 29, 2021 5:55 pm

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cthia wrote:The author said "no major navy" will be willing to build FFs. But as I said, any navy with a need for extended cruising endurance just might. Would the MA be considered as a "major navy?"

I can see the MA utilizing and even needing the extended endurance of FFs.


No, the MAlign would build light cruisers if it needed that extended endurance.

What we're arguing is there there is no navy that is both small enough that the price tag of a CL is too high and has the need for major endurance.

That's not to say that some navies may ill-advisedly order some, due to faulty logic or some other interests having sway. Or, as we discussed, because it was the only unit the could afford in the first place (or the only unit available for sale), even if it was all wrong for their needs and will eventually cost more. The used frigate salesmen do need to make a living, after all.
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by cthia   » Sat May 29, 2021 6:07 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:The author said "no major navy" will be willing to build FFs. But as I said, any navy with a need for extended cruising endurance just might. Would the MA be considered as a "major navy?"

I can see the MA utilizing and even needing the extended endurance of FFs.



P.S.

Hi Rose! It is so good to know you survived the pandemic. I hope you graduated before having to endure college online! I don't want to post in that thread while your name is showing. It is good to see your name up in lights again. :D

You might even argue that a Ghost is a adjacent to a frigate. Its designed to sneak around a hostile system undetected for months to sniff out and track everything worth targeting; then to deploy stealth fire control relays to help ensure the ultra-long ranged weapons launched by the larger warships are guided to those targets. And it gets its range (and stealth) by ruthlessly trading away it's offensive (and most of its defensive) capabilities.

It's a bit more extreme than a frigate; but following the same trajectory of taking a warship and prioritizing other items, including range, over direct combat capability.


However, I can't see the MAlign bothering with conventional impeller powered frigates. Those aren't stealthy enough to be sure of remaining undetected by enemy forces; and yet weak enough to be at serious risk even in systems defended only by old-style LACS. That makes them seem a poor offensive instrument for the MAlign, but the MAlign doesn't have far flung shipping interests than need anti-piracy protection. And the MAlign does have better units for long range scouting (the Ghosts).

I didn't think the MA would want to risk Ghosts on "menial" tasks that could be performed by a FF. If the WH they use is remote even to their system, they could certainly use an extended endurance vessel. Killing your garden variety research vessel doesn't require much firepower.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat May 29, 2021 8:37 pm

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cthia wrote:I didn't think the MA would want to risk Ghosts on "menial" tasks that could be performed by a FF. If the WH they use is remote even to their system, they could certainly use an extended endurance vessel. Killing your garden variety research vessel doesn't require much firepower.

And yet we know that they actually felt the appropriate force level for killing a garden variety research vessel was a bunch of battlecruisers. (Which, in that situation, would have been more than sufficiently to kill your garden variety Superdreadnought!)
The MAlign appears to be firm believers in overkill :D

And that was the firepower they thought reasonable for swapping a garden variety research vessel probing the terminus at the Twins. I have to imagine they want even more than that guarding the Felix terminus at/closest to Darius.


And for mounting a defense of the terminus nearest Darius an armed station or fort riding herd on mines and remote energy platforms is going to, long term, have a lower cost than rotating any type of warships, even frigates, to the terminus to guard it. (Up front the frigates are cheaper sure, but long term they're not. And the MAlign doesn't seem to be cash strapped in their building programs; so they can afford to invest in the superior long term solution despite the higher up-front cost)
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by cthia   » Sun May 30, 2021 9:04 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:I didn't think the MA would want to risk Ghosts on "menial" tasks that could be performed by a FF. If the WH they use is remote even to their system, they could certainly use an extended endurance vessel. Killing your garden variety research vessel doesn't require much firepower.

And yet we know that they actually felt the appropriate force level for killing a garden variety research vessel was a bunch of battlecruisers. (Which, in that situation, would have been more than sufficiently to kill your garden variety Superdreadnought!)
The MAlign appears to be firm believers in overkill :D

And that was the firepower they thought reasonable for swapping a garden variety research vessel probing the terminus at the Twins. I have to imagine they want even more than that guarding the Felix terminus at/closest to Darius.


And for mounting a defense of the terminus nearest Darius an armed station or fort riding herd on mines and remote energy platforms is going to, long term, have a lower cost than rotating any type of warships, even frigates, to the terminus to guard it. (Up front the frigates are cheaper sure, but long term they're not. And the MAlign doesn't seem to be cash strapped in their building programs; so they can afford to invest in the superior long term solution despite the higher up-front cost)

Woaa Nellie! :o

That's certainly news to me. I wasn't aware the MA ever showed that they had any conventional ships. Not that I don't trust you, but could you point to the book containing that tidbit? Is it in one of the latest books?

I always said the MA's tactics would increase significantly if they developed conventional ships to augment the LDs. You're saying they have them?

FFs would have allowed the MA's nefarious firestarting activities throughout the Galaxy to proceed without calling attention to itself. I wouldn't think they'd want too many of their Streak Boats gallivanting about the Galaxy, even if they have a lot of them. And nobody would pay much attention to a bargain basement FF. Plus, the excessive cruising endurance would keep them away from the gas stations and having to interact with people. Endurance might really be the centerpiece of their logistics.

Again, some navies may not have the up front cash to make the better long-term investment.

A case of 10 chickens at $2 a chicken is a much better bargain in the long run than 2 chickens at $5 a chicken. But that long-term investment is meaningless to the family who can't even afford the 2 chickens that they need, right now!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by cthia   » Sun May 30, 2021 9:27 am

cthia
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Brigade XO wrote:Do they need a new class of warship?

Is it possible- now that Destroyers are becoming very large, that a ship class dedicated to convoy protection would be workable and have the endurance/range & combat power to deal both with your garden variety pirate AND "small" present level SLN tech warships.....and call it a Destroyer Escort?

And "when" something is developed that can detect spider drive ships, perhaps we will need a "Spider Wasp" type ship that is optimized for spider hunting and may or may not be hyper-capable. I phrase it that way as it seems likely that the spider-drive ships are going to hang outside of hyperlimits and if you are going to play out there you are going to need to be able to move with hyperdrive.

Lotsa interesting stuff. As far as a new class of ship, I thought they needed some conventional ships to attack simultaneously along with the LDs. It seems I didn't get the memo about the BCs they have in their inventory.

If you add that stuff to a destroyer it becomes a FF.

You mean escort the escorters?

A Spider Wasp. Neat! I posited something like that a while back. But it depends on the size of the tech that can locate a Spider. Specifically, whether it is small enough that it can be deployed aboard a vessel. Instead of being so large it needs system defense platforms/arrays.

Wiki wrote:Q-Ships:

The use of decoy "Q-Ships" also had some success against submarines. The Q-Ships were heavily armed anti-sub ships, disguised as vulnerable targets, and designed to lure submarines into making surface attacks. Once a U-Boat surfaced and got close enough, the Q-Ship would open fire and often surprise and overwhelm them.

Destroyers also had a shallow enough draft that torpedoes would find it difficult to hit them. HMS Badger was the first destroyer to successfully ram a submarine.


So, if destroyers are used as they were historically, they'll need more endurance.

.
Last edited by cthia on Sun May 30, 2021 9:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun May 30, 2021 9:27 am

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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:And yet we know that they actually felt the appropriate force level for killing a garden variety research vessel was a bunch of battlecruisers. (Which, in that situation, would have been more than sufficiently to kill your garden variety Superdreadnought!)
The MAlign appears to be firm believers in overkill :D

And that was the firepower they thought reasonable for swapping a garden variety research vessel probing the terminus at the Twins. I have to imagine they want even more than that guarding the Felix terminus at/closest to Darius.


And for mounting a defense of the terminus nearest Darius an armed station or fort riding herd on mines and remote energy platforms is going to, long term, have a lower cost than rotating any type of warships, even frigates, to the terminus to guard it. (Up front the frigates are cheaper sure, but long term they're not. And the MAlign doesn't seem to be cash strapped in their building programs; so they can afford to invest in the superior long term solution despite the higher up-front cost)

Woaa Nellie! :o

That's certainly news to me. I wasn't aware the MA ever showed that they had any conventional ships. Not that I don't trust you, but could you point to the book containing that tidbit? Is it in one of the latest books?

I always said the MA's tactics would increase significantly if they developed conventional ships to augment the LDs. You're saying they have them?

FFs would have allowed the MA's nefarious firestarting activities throughout the Galaxy to proceed without calling attention to itself. I wouldn't think they'd want too many of their Streak Boats gallivanting about the Galaxy, even if they have a lot of them. And nobody would pay much attention to a bargain basement FF. Plus, the excessive cruising endurance would keep them away from the gas stations and having to interact with people. And, endurance might really be the centerpiece of their logistics.

Again, some navies may not have the up front cash to make the better long-term investment.

A case of 10 chickens at $2 a chicken is a much better bargain in the long run than 2 chickens at $5 a chicken. But that long-term investment is meaningless to the family who can't even afford the 2 chickens that they need, right now!
Sure, no problem. We all forget or overlook things (I know I definitely do)

That was from Torch of Freedom - the destruction of Harvest Joy.
Torch of Freedom - Ch. 27 wrote:An alarm shrilled with shocking suddenness, and Zachary's head whipped around towards the tactical display.
"Unknown starships!" The professionalism of merciless training flattened the stunned disbelief in Lieutenant Keller's voice without making his report one bit less jarring. "Two unknown starships, bearing zero-zero-five by zero-seven-niner, range one-zero-three thous—"
Twelve battlecruiser-grade grasers, fired at a range of just over a third of a light-second, arrived before he could complete his final sentence, and HMS Harvest Joy, Josepha Zachary, and every man and woman aboard her ship disappeared in a single cataclysmic ball of incandescent fury.
(Though there were actually 8 BCs defending the terminus; but presumably only 2 had the watch and were at action stations when Harvest Joy came through. Or else her sensor officers simply didn't have a chance to see the others before being obliteratred)

Those BCs weren't Darius built, but they were Mesan Alignment Navy controlled ships; Sixth Battlecruiser Squadron of the Mannerheim System-Defense Force. Which we're later directly told is under the control of the Mesan Alignment Navy.
Torch of Freedom - Ch. 50 wrote:As a result of which, Task Force Four's command structure was undeniably top-heavy in alpha-lines, beta-lines, and gamma-lines.
Which meant that, unlike the majority of their fellow officers, they knew the Mannerheim System-Defense Force was actually an adjunct of the Mesan Alignment Navy no one else knew even existed.
[...]
The reason Ganneau's squadron had drawn the duty of watching the Alignment's end of the Verdant Vista Bridge in the first place was that judicious personnel assignments similar to those which had been tweaked in Task Force Four's favor had led—purely coincidentally, of course—to the Sixth Battlecruiser Squadron's being exclusively officered and manned by what happened to be Mesan star-lines.



And I agree that some navies don't have the upfront cash/resources to afford the greater investment in the better long term solution.

I just can't see any sign that the MASN is one of those cash/resource strapped navies - they've got, what, a dozen RA systems to covertly tap plus a heavily industrialized Darius with its yards capable of churning out a dozen or more BB sized Sharks in what IIRC was under a decade, plus now working on a significant number of the largest warships anybody has ever built (seemingly larger than many forts). They seem to have no significant shortage of resources for their naval construction.
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sun May 30, 2021 6:47 pm

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Relax wrote:1)How do we know how the missiles are fired? We know the missiles have collars for moving them around and stuffing into the missile tubes in question. I believe this is from OBS in the transfer of missiles between magazine scene as they had to replace a collar which broke or some such. This could indicate that the diameter of the missile tube in question should be created at the beginning of design to be much larger than the actual initial missile requires. OBviously there are limits. We also know that they dumb CM cannisters out the tubes. So, the analogy is NOT like artillery, requiring a precision fit and nothing else will work, but far closer to today's GMLRS.

The "collars" in that situation were countergravity collars needed to shift the missiles around with brute force rather than using the transfer tubes designed into the ship for that purpose (but had been wrecked by fire). Not anything needed for the launch.

Admittedly we don't know how CM cannisters work, but the name itself suggests a shell around multiple CMs, thus the cannister itself being the launch "collar" that makes it fit the launch tube. Probably something similar to that or perhaps an actual collar stabilizes the front end of a Cataphract in the launch tube, as the warhead ends are of a lesser diameter than the first stage drive it's mated to.
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