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Escort Carrier Modification

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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:32 pm

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And speaking of escape pods -- In a lot of ways (despite being far larger) LACs would actually be easier to deal with than escape pods.

An escape pod is a compromise of a conventional warship's capabilities.
* Their launch tubes are more opening in its armor, and take up hull space that could otherwise carry sensors or weapons;

* Their need to be accessible from deep in the ship (engineering, bridge, CIC, etc.) means large escape pod pathways opening addition voids in the ship and taking up extra volume.

So escape pods are necessary, but there's a trade-off. For a given size/tonnage more pods, in more places, with more launch tubes will increase the ability of the crew to successfully abandon ship; but that extra ability comes at the expensive of weak spots in its armor, smaller/fewer sensors, and less weapons and point defense mounts. So designers need to balance escape pods against combat capability.

But with a CLAC the LACs are its main armament; and so the correspondingly command priority for its broadside space; and they mount no broadside offensive weapons; only point defense. The LACs don't need to be brought deeper into the hull than necessary to close the bay hatch behind them.
The bay doors are weak points in whatever armor might be applied to the CLAC's broadside; but a CLAC isn't supposed to be engaging in slugging match. At least the core armor around engineering, the bridge, CIC, etc. would be inboard of the LAC bays and thus wouldn't be pierced for LAC access like it is for escape pod tubes.


LACs are far larger, and their bays take up far more broadside space than any plausible number of escape pod tubes. But as they are the ships main weapons making space for the isn't a trade-off of its combat capability; it's the creation of that capability.
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:19 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Thanks guys.

Jonathan, some sort of presser beam is the only explanation I could come up with. But I wanted to make sure, because when imagining the entire process removed from "on paper," it poses some interesting questions, not at all unlike the questions which arose when microscopically peering at the process of launching escape pods through shoals of debris.

For example, it must be a single presser beam or the entire operation would require a very large infrastructure simply to support a presser beam per LAC. And if it is indeed one presser beam then each LAC has to somehow be moved into position before launch. Does that imply some sort of rotary system? Similar to the same discussion about pods rotating before filling and launching? And, at what rate are they fired?

So, the ship's speed simply has to play a part in creating that separation, but I don't think the system can wholly rely upon that. Remember, your CLAC may have an initial low accel during launch because CLACs are held back for protection. But, if caught off guard they should be able to launch even while at rest.

Also, are CLACs similar enough to regular warships to launch LACs double broadside? Or is it a totally different design with huge LAC bays?

At any rate, nice posts!
Well the CLAC's acceleration can be beneficial to generating separation; their speed alone wouldn't be. There's (effectively) no friction in space, so if you launch a LAC out of a CLAC that's not accelerating it'll just coast right along with it; doesn't much matter if the CLAC is at standstill relative to the system or moving through it at 0.25c -- the LAC shares its velocity right up until the point of separation. Only acceleration after that point would generate separation.
(That's slightly unintuitive; as we're using to things on earth where air resistance rapidly robs them of their initial velocity, causing them to quickly fall behind a vehicle moving at constant velocity).

Still, the ship's acceleration can help achieve the separation a bit sooner. But, like I showed, the LAC alone should be able to separate from a stationary (or at least, non-accelerating) CLAC in barely more than a minute.

I'm envisioning a launch using 3 different propulsion mode sequentially in a minute or so (or less than half that if the CLAC also accelerates after separation).
1. A presser shoves the LAC backwards out of its bay to a couple hundred meters; far enough for thrusters to safely be used (The LAC can flip end for end as it's covering this distance).
2. The LAC then uses its thrusters to accelerate out to 1000 km or so; far enough for its wedge to be safely used.
3. Finally bring up its wedge, allowing it to acclerate away at over 600 gees.



We can see from the diagram of HMS Minotaur and her LAC bays, in the back of EoH that the CLAC has a two rows of LAC bays running down each broadside, and each bay is only slightly larger than a single LAC. 25 bays in each row; so 50 bays per broadside, and 100 bays total. Each of her 100 LACs docks and launches from its own bay, on the CLAC's broadside. Pull in forward to dock, back out stern first to launch.

Each bay and/or LAC would need its own launch hardware as there's no way to move them between bays [1] and there's no common hanger beyond the LAC bay. This isn't Battlestar Galactica's Viper hangers and launch tubes; it's more like the CLAC's broadsides is dotted with 100 separate little 1 LAC garages; each complete with garage door to close behind the LAC after it pulls in. :D


Fortunately pressers seem to be no larger than tractors; and we know a LAC carries several tractors. Heck, it's possible that presser is simple an alternate mode of the same tractor emitter.
So, I'm not sure if each bay has pressers to launch the docked LAC or if each LAC mounts its own pressers (and thus shoves itself backwards out of its bay). Still, the hardware doesn't appear to be large enough to cause any issues with having 100 sets to launch 100 LACs; especially since the pressor beams don't need to move the LAC far; just enough to let the LAC switch to thrusters.

I can't see any reason a CLAC couldn't launch LACs simultaneously from both broadsides. Though it probably doesn't want to launch all 100 at the exact same instant; that'd complicate the LAC's job of achieving sufficient mutual separation to light off their wedges. Spacing launches out a little is time and distance would actually lower to total time between first launch and final LAC engaging its wedge.


[1] Short of launching the LAC into space and having to return to a different bay

Excellent points. And no, all of it isn't intuitive unless you're in that frame of mind. Which I wasn't.

I suppose it is better if CLACs accelerate to launch. It reminds me of aircraft carriers having to "steam" into the wind to launch fighters.

I wasn't aware that each LAC has its own launch tube. That makes things a lot simpler. Depending on accel, I'd think LACs would have to launch either simultaneously or from aft to fore to prevent any mishaps. It's all very interesting.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:39 am

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cthia wrote:Excellent points. And no, all of it isn't intuitive unless you're in that frame of mind. Which I wasn't.

I suppose it is better if CLACs accelerate to launch. It reminds me of aircraft carriers having to "steam" into the wind to launch fighters.

I wasn't aware that each LAC has its own launch tube. That makes things a lot simpler. Depending on accel, I'd think LACs would have to launch either simultaneously or from aft to fore to prevent any mishaps. It's all very interesting.


It's not even a tube, just a garage with a retractable door. The CLAC Control probably controls the doors and the "ejection" pressors to make a smooth LAC Wing deployment.

Think of a parachute brigade. a C-17 has doors on both sides for parachutists to exit and a chute lanyard is connected in the plane so the chute is automatically opened as the paratrooper jumps out the door in a cadence. The troopers then float down and land in a formation with little interaction with each others as the plane flys forward.

Except in this case each LAC has a separate door which is opened in order for a clean deployment formation... and computer controls will keep them inline and fire up their wedges at the proper place/time for them to form up properly.
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:03 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:Excellent points. And no, all of it isn't intuitive unless you're in that frame of mind. Which I wasn't.

I suppose it is better if CLACs accelerate to launch. It reminds me of aircraft carriers having to "steam" into the wind to launch fighters.

I wasn't aware that each LAC has its own launch tube. That makes things a lot simpler. Depending on accel, I'd think LACs would have to launch either simultaneously or from aft to fore to prevent any mishaps. It's all very interesting.


It's not even a tube, just a garage with a retractable door. The CLAC Control probably controls the doors and the "ejection" pressors to make a smooth LAC Wing deployment.

Think of a parachute brigade. a C-17 has doors on both sides for parachutists to exit and a chute lanyard is connected in the plane so the chute is automatically opened as the paratrooper jumps out the door in a cadence. The troopers then float down and land in a formation with little interaction with each others as the plane flys forward.

Except in this case each LAC has a separate door which is opened in order for a clean deployment formation... and computer controls will keep them inline and fire up their wedges at the proper place/time for them to form up properly.
Great, now I'm visualizing some bizarre choreographed video shot on a stereotypical suburban street. 8am every single garage door opens simultaneously, from each driveway identical family sedans back out, turning so they all interleave perfectly on the street, and in sync they all drive away to the office :lol: :D
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Michael Everett   » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:52 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Great, now I'm visualizing some bizarre choreographed video shot on a stereotypical suburban street. 8am every single garage door opens simultaneously, from each driveway identical family sedans back out, turning so they all interleave perfectly on the street, and in sync they all drive away to the office :lol: :D

...Eerie Indiana?

Opening sequence had something similar with lawnmowers...
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Fox2!   » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:29 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Great, now I'm visualizing some bizarre choreographed video shot on a stereotypical suburban street. 8am every single garage door opens simultaneously, from each driveway identical family sedans back out, turning so they all interleave perfectly on the street, and in sync they all drive away to the office :lol: :D

...Eerie Indiana?

Opening sequence had something similar with lawnmowers...


Twenty five LAC bays in each of two rows, on each side, is two squadrons plus 1 spare per row, four squadrons (plus two spares) per broadside. If the LACs use a finger-four formation (two pairs arranged like your fingers), then each squadron could launch in three flights of four, a flight lead and his wingman, followed by the second section lead and his wingman. if the flights were properly arranged, you could do
1-3-2-4 9-11-10-12 5-7-6-8.

This provides separation both within and between adjacent squadrons.
The upper row of bays would all break up (positive Z direction) relative to the carrier, while the lower row would all break in the negative Z direction. This would provide spatial and temporal dispersion for each launch.

Whether leads launched first, followed by their wingman, or the members of a section launched sequentially would be a matter for the LAC Weapons School to figure out

Edited to correct launch sequence of third flight.
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:17 am

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On the flip side, CLACs have to retrieve LACs, or rather, LACs have to match velocity with the CLAC, and back into a garage that is moving perpendicular to their flight path. :o And sometimes this may have to be done under some very antsy conditions. Like incoming fire!

That would be like an F-14 trying to line up with the landing deck of a carrier that is skidding sideways. :o

I suppose the LAC can pull alongside a moving CLAC, match velocities then burn thrusters to change attitude before tractors "lock on and pull it in."

But if the CLAC is accelerating and maneuvering, and or if the LAC's thrusters have been damaged...

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:29 am

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cthia wrote:On the flip side, CLACs have to retrieve LACs, or rather, LACs have to match velocity with the CLAC, and back into a garage that is moving perpendicular to their flight path. :o And sometimes this may have to be done under some very antsy conditions. Like incoming fire!

That would be like an F-14 trying to line up with the landing deck of a carrier that is skidding sideways. :o

I suppose the LAC can pull alongside a moving CLAC, match velocities then burn thrusters to change attitude before tractors "lock on and pull it in."

But if the CLAC is accelerating and maneuvering, and or if the LAC's thrusters have been damaged...
If it's under fire the LACs would presumably use their emergency escape maneuver -- using their onboard tractors to limpet themselves to the hull of the big boys just long enough for everybody to hyper out (and thus no longer be under fire)

Current doctrine is for CLACs to be detached after launching their brood; so they shouldn't be with the fleet if it's retreating under fire. (Hence the tactic above to get the LACs out of there without risking the CLACs)

So there shouldn't be any need for the CLAC to be maneuvering hard while recovering LACs. Still, whether or not it can probable comes down to how far beyond it's hull it can extend its compensation field. The LACs won't be able to provide their own (as their wedge has to be down during approach and docking); but once inside the CLAC's field they none of it's acceleration is felt by the LAC or crew. (So exactly the same as when their own wedge is up).

And we know the ships can extend their compensator field; though it costs them acceleration. That's what they're doing when towing pods.

So it would seem that the LACs just have to get themselves into the compensated zone; after that point the tractors have relatively little force to work against to suck the LAC the rest of the way into the hanger. And they could potentially do that by getting somewhat ahead of the CLAC and letting it (and it's compensation zone) come to them and scoop them up.

That field can clearly be extended far enough to make launching possible while the CLAC is acceleration (because we've seen them do that); but it might still be too tight for anyone to feel comfortable flying into before establishing tractors. (But you can't tractor while outside the compensation field if the CLAC is acceleration hard; at least not without turning the LAC crew to jelly)


Still, I suspect, since doctrine wouldn't have them trying to return to their hangers while under fire, that normal practice would be for the CLAC to cut accel during docking. It'd make everything easier to just coast for the few minutes of docking maneuvers.
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:15 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:On the flip side, CLACs have to retrieve LACs, or rather, LACs have to match velocity with the CLAC, and back into a garage that is moving perpendicular to their flight path. :o And sometimes this may have to be done under some very antsy conditions. Like incoming fire!

That would be like an F-14 trying to line up with the landing deck of a carrier that is skidding sideways. :o

I suppose the LAC can pull alongside a moving CLAC, match velocities then burn thrusters to change attitude before tractors "lock on and pull it in."

But if the CLAC is accelerating and maneuvering, and or if the LAC's thrusters have been damaged...
If it's under fire the LACs would presumably use their emergency escape maneuver -- using their onboard tractors to limpet themselves to the hull of the big boys just long enough for everybody to hyper out (and thus no longer be under fire)

Current doctrine is for CLACs to be detached after launching their brood; so they shouldn't be with the fleet if it's retreating under fire. (Hence the tactic above to get the LACs out of there without risking the CLACs)

So there shouldn't be any need for the CLAC to be maneuvering hard while recovering LACs. Still, whether or not it can probable comes down to how far beyond it's hull it can extend its compensation field. The LACs won't be able to provide their own (as their wedge has to be down during approach and docking); but once inside the CLAC's field they none of it's acceleration is felt by the LAC or crew. (So exactly the same as when their own wedge is up).

And we know the ships can extend their compensator field; though it costs them acceleration. That's what they're doing when towing pods.

So it would seem that the LACs just have to get themselves into the compensated zone; after that point the tractors have relatively little force to work against to suck the LAC the rest of the way into the hanger. And they could potentially do that by getting somewhat ahead of the CLAC and letting it (and it's compensation zone) come to them and scoop them up.

That field can clearly be extended far enough to make launching possible while the CLAC is acceleration (because we've seen them do that); but it might still be too tight for anyone to feel comfortable flying into before establishing tractors. (But you can't tractor while outside the compensation field if the CLAC is acceleration hard; at least not without turning the LAC crew to jelly)


Still, I suspect, since doctrine wouldn't have them trying to return to their hangers while under fire, that normal practice would be for the CLAC to cut accel during docking. It'd make everything easier to just coast for the few minutes of docking maneuvers.


Nice scenes you've painted. It is really interesting imagining it all.

I doubt very seriously, though, that a CLAC can tow its full complement of CLACs outside its hull. That is just too much extra volume to compensate, I'd wager. But I think it is interesting that doctrine includes hitching a ride with other ships just long enough to get out of the hotzone.

At any rate, you've probably got doctrine pegged. Except, you've got to allow for a doctrine for when the shit has hit the fan, and the entire quadrant is stinky. Heck, retrieving LACs could take a long time if there has been a deadly battle with huge RMN losses. There will be LACs staggering back to the CLAC, limping with damage.

And, of course there are going to be times when CLACs will have to risk destruction to collect LACs.

You're not alone if you're thinking about the scene where Honor had to abandon Michelle.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:48 pm

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cthia wrote:I doubt very seriously, though, that a CLAC can tow its full complement of CLACs outside its hull. That is just too much extra volume to compensate, I'd wager. But I think it is interesting that doctrine includes hitching a ride with other ships just long enough to get out of the hotzone.

At any rate, you've probably got doctrine pegged. Except, you've got to allow for a doctrine for when the shit has hit the fan, and the entire quadrant is stinky. Heck, retrieving LACs could take a long time if there has been a deadly battle with huge RMN losses. There will be LACs staggering back to the CLAC, limping with damage.


Indeed, but in that case there are also many fewer LACs to be recovered. If the operation has been such a disaster that the CLACs have come under fire, the LACs themselves are probably almost all gone. They'd be the first line of defence for the forces attempting to withdraw.

They also have the highest acceleration of any known ship. So they could simply accelerate out-system to a predefined pick-up location a light-day out that the pursuers have no chance of overtaking in normal space. The pursuers would need to transition to hyperspace and engage the CLACs there, dividing their forces between the n-space harassers, the hyperspace ones, and whoever is left defending whatever was valuable in that system.

And, of course there are going to be times when CLACs will have to risk destruction to collect LACs.

You're not alone if you're thinking about the scene where Honor had to abandon Michelle.


It's far more likely the LACs would be abandoned in that case. A 5-million tonne ship with a thousand crew is far more valuable than a dozen or two LACs.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
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