Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests

Escort Carrier Modification

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:07 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4335
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

cthia wrote:But LACs are as useless as your appendix when it comes to escort duty. LACs cannot accompany the freighters to the point of sale. A polity may opt for ships which are cheap, logical and appropriate for all of its logistics in the short term. The short term may be all an entity can afford before it begins to walk on two legs like an infant.

I disagree that the acquisition of Frigates will necessarily represent a solution in search of a problem.


You're missing an important point. Planets that can only afford frigates usually don't have merchants of their own which they need to escort. Other polity's merchant visit them, not the other way around. Yes, there may be a short amount of time where your slowly building economy has only Frigates and has acquired merchants. But that would quickly change as the money flows in.

Also, Actual pirates are rare in most places in the Honorverse in 1900-1920. Places that can only afford frigates don't see enough merchant traffic - or the right merchant traffic - to attract pirates. Yes, there were the ex-peeps trying to eek a living out on the fringes (unsuccessfully), and the SLN playing their games - neither of which would have been intimidated by a frigate or 2 (or 10).

As I said before, most small polities that can only afford frigates are only interested in their local area - their system, the unoccupied systems near them, and their neighbors - at the most. They don't have a reason to go further. It would be like Peru routinely patrolling the Taiwanese Straight, English channel, or Bosporus - they have no business or need to do so. On the fLip, the English have a far flung merchant empire and do patrol such places - And bring the firepower to do so.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:16 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6989
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

cthia wrote:But LACs are as useless as your appendix when it comes to escort duty. LACs cannot accompany the freighters to the point of sale. A polity may opt for ships which are cheap, logical and appropriate for all of its logistics in the short term. The short term may be all an entity can afford before it begins to walk on two legs like an infant.

I disagree that the acquisition of Frigates will necessarily represent a solution in search of a problem.
True - LACs can't escort freighters. (Ignoring weird emergency expedient measures like sticking one in a cargo hold or carrying it along docked to a freighter)

But anti-piracy escort is practically non-existent as a requirement in the Honorverse. Pirates can effectively only locate or attack shipping either within the hyper limit or slightly beyond it - so you only need escort for a dozen or two lightminutes out of a many lightyear trip. Bringing it with you isn't generally cost effective.

(The situation is a bit different in an active war where front-line systems might change hands, and a military can afford to 'waste' resources on a low probability attempts to intercept shipping in hyper. There a military escort for some shipping is reasonable - but it needs to be a lot more powerful than frigates)


So since piracy is only a problem around ports, a system that wants to get much trade needs to secure their area against pirates. If they don't (or can't) then the trade you're getting from that insecure system needs to be damned valuable in order to justify the cost of sending naval escorts along, or deploying your navy to patrol their space.

It seems that it'd be a darned rare combination, a place that profitable enough to justify sending your navy to protect the trade, but poor or dysfunctional enough they can't or won't acquire and deploy LACs to secure that same profitable trade. (And yes Silesia had been exactly that dysfunctional setup; but it's the exception not the rule)


If you're talking about a couple of relatively poor systems then one of them developing a pirate problem they can't control simply makes that trade economically unviable. It's cheaper for your freighters to trade elsewhere than it is for you to try to fix or mitigate the piracy problem from a distance. And if you're so poor that a handful of frigates are all you can afford, then you can't afford to be taking economic losses hunting pirates.




Now if you're a more wealthy nation then you might well see the anti-piracy work as worthwhile experience for your navy, even if the costs of dealing with them exceed the trade you'll recover from that system. But those wealthier systems would have real warships, DDs or CLs, to use.
Top
Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:18 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13352
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:But LACs are as useless as your appendix when it comes to escort duty. LACs cannot accompany the freighters to the point of sale. A polity may opt for ships which are cheap, logical and appropriate for all of its logistics in the short term. The short term may be all an entity can afford before it begins to walk on two legs like an infant.

I disagree that the acquisition of Frigates will necessarily represent a solution in search of a problem.


You're missing an important point. Planets that can only afford frigates usually don't have merchants of their own which they need to escort. Other polity's merchant visit them, not the other way around. Yes, there may be a short amount of time where your slowly building economy has only Frigates and has acquired merchants. But that would quickly change as the money flows in.

Also, Actual pirates are rare in most places in the Honorverse in 1900-1920. Places that can only afford frigates don't see enough merchant traffic - or the right merchant traffic - to attract pirates. Yes, there were the ex-peeps trying to eek a living out on the fringes (unsuccessfully), and the SLN playing their games - neither of which would have been intimidated by a frigate or 2 (or 10).

As I said before, most small polities that can only afford frigates are only interested in their local area - their system, the unoccupied systems near them, and their neighbors - at the most. They don't have a reason to go further. It would be like Peru routinely patrolling the Taiwanese Straight, English channel, or Bosporus - they have no business or need to do so. On the fLip, the English have a far flung merchant empire and do patrol such places - And bring the firepower to do so.

A lot of the business as usual may have to change as the result of a humbled SL and the current dynamics which it left in the surrounding systems. The SL now needs all of its freighters for itself now that Manticore's freighters are no longer available to them. The League may no longer be able to adequately service itself let alone upstart backwater mom and pop operations which are trying to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, now that they dare to venture out with ambitious operations that were previously impossible under the repressive regime. Many systems may have to build/acquire freighters of their own. And since other systems which have left the SL may also be without freighters as well, these young upstart polities may have to deliver the goods. Remember, everything is broken now. There are brand new opportunities that suddenly present themselves in this brave new frontier which is suddenly devoid of a greedy corrupt gorilla. But only for go getters. Success doesn't come to you. You've got to go get it.

Everyone will be jockeying for position. And the SL will love to see them all fail and come crawling back. But these poor systems have visions. They were only poor because of the SL. But now they have the motivation and a real chance to thrive, and they have a gameplan that will allow them to do just that, in time. But for now they have to crawl before they can walk. They cannot afford to build their own freighters, warships and DBs without pinching pennies until their fingers bleed.

And FFs will complement their entire logistics. They will double for system defense, escorts and DBs. Other systems without either will be more of a target.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Captain Golding   » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:11 am

Captain Golding
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:55 am

Hmm,
Getting away from Topic here.

An isolated world that needs a local defense force for anti piracy patrols will be well served with a LAC force able to meet merchants at the hyper limit and escort them in and back out. Since engagements in Hyper space are so much harder the risk there is so low as to not matter. Maybe there are some common Navigation points that would need to be patrolled between systems but that is a secondary issue.

Silestia created a problem for Manicore where they could not rely on the locals to police their own systems which created the need for a long range escort, which in traditional French and RN terms would have been called a Sloop rather than a Frigate in modern usage.

The "Frigates" being described in the Honourverse seem to me to be closer to the late 19th Century and early 20th Centry colonial Sloops. Large Endurance vessels with a few large guns, marines etc. intended for independant operations away from first class opposition where they performed police and anti piracy duties.

The Torch Frigates seem to be a different type of vessel, almost a purpose built raider. Of course since these were initally designed for the Ballroom pre Torch that makes sense and politically nobody could admit they were building pirate vessels (Which the Ballroom ships would have been since they did not belong to a recognised goverment!).

Getting back on Topic, how much "space" does it take to piggyback a current LAC on a Warship to lift it between systems ? When the CLAC has withdrawn to Hyper because of a threat and the LAC's have retreated to a pre agreed RV can just the crews be recovered or can DD's and CL's perhaps grab them and lift them into Hyper to rejoin their parent vessels later? If in SVW a BC could tow 3 through Hyper (but presumably not a Grav wave) and ships have grown since and have much more powerful tractors (to support pods)could a BC(P) not tractor a couple to the outside and carry them from place to place. Sure doing an EV to transfer crew or service anything might be inconvinient but delivering a couple of LAC's to provide an in system escort and missile defence could be a good idea. Especially if a convoy needs to split to different points inside the hyperlimit.

The current FSV's provide all the CV(E)'s that the GSN and RMN need and more can be built.

What I am not sure of is how many LAC's in a Squadron? 8 or 12. The inital engagements at Hancock imply 8 but the UH engagement round the Prime Ajay Bridge imply 12, with the FSV providing 3 squadrons and a reduced squadron of 8 for 44 total.

Looking at the HOS totals I would say the GSN is really light on screening and scouting elements. The minor parties in the Manticore Alliance may well have provided these but in the Post UH world of the GA I would expect there to be some rebalancing. In rebuilding Blackbird I would expect that the first things to build would be such smaller warships - for sure new SD(P)'s will come out of the common Bolthole/ Beowolf production system.

So I can see the GSN in their own way coming up with a CL(P) where there are large area's of the Dorsal and Ventral surfaces kept clear for external pod racks or to piggy back a LAC or two. Perhaps with the same Hammerhead armament as a Roland but larger magazines and Drone storage. More FC of course and more tractors to handle the Pods. A CL with a 12 Mk16 salvo is respectable, add a pair of 14 mk16 pod load to a Salvo make the CL(P) generate a 40 round salvo which matches a Sag(C) CA. 20 internal rounds per launcher and 40 pods gives a respectable loadout. Since the Pods are on the hull inside the Sidewalls etc. they are not costing accelleration or vunerable to proximity kills like towed ones. I suspect the hull would be oval rather than cyclindical, fatter rather than higher to create more space inside the wedges and compensator zones.
Top
Re: Escort Carrier Modification
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:25 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6989
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Captain Golding wrote:Getting back on Topic, how much "space" does it take to piggyback a current LAC on a Warship to lift it between systems ? When the CLAC has withdrawn to Hyper because of a threat and the LAC's have retreated to a pre agreed RV can just the crews be recovered or can DD's and CL's perhaps grab them and lift them into Hyper to rejoin their parent vessels later? If in SVW a BC could tow 3 through Hyper (but presumably not a Grav wave) and ships have grown since and have much more powerful tractors (to support pods)could a BC(P) not tractor a couple to the outside and carry them from place to place. Sure doing an EV to transfer crew or service anything might be inconvinient but delivering a couple of LAC's to provide an in system escort and missile defence could be a good idea. Especially if a convoy needs to split to different points inside the hyperlimit.
For short term use, like retreating from a system, you don't even need to tractor the LAC to the ship; just have the LACs within a hundred km or so and the ship can jump them into hyper.
That's obviously no good if there's a grav wave involved; but most systems don't sit within one; and it's good enough to get the LACs into hyper for the short hop to the emergency backup rendezvous with their CLAC.

But if the CLAC was destroyed and you had to bring the LACs all the way home, that'd be harder unless you kept the acceleration way down. The issue with Saladin/Thunder of God towing the Masadan ones is that even a BC's compensator bubble isn't large enough to enclose a towed (or presumably docked) LAC so the LACs were exposed to the full force of its acceleration. Even with the crews removed and the LACs specially prepared that was hard on them.

OTOH if you're willing to hold your acceleration down to a g or so then the LAC is probably going to be fine -- it'll just take you a lot longer to work up to cruising speed. And if you keep the acceleration down you probably don't need to spear each LAC with multiple tractors to spread avoid overstressing the structure by tugging too hard on just one part of it.

The new BCs are a lot larger, and probably have more tractors thanks to being designed for pod combat. So they can probably tow more LACs, but I'd guess still less than 8 if fully zoned and maybe 3 times as many if only using 1 tractor per LAC. But I think all the LACs would still be outside the compensator bubble.

OTOH RMN/GSN LACs have plenty of power endurance and have tractors of their own; so assuming nothing breaks I don't see any reason way more than 8 LACs couldn't tractor themselves behind a ship, using their own power and tractors to do so. You'd need to hold the acceleration down to avoid damaging the tractor mount or squashing the crews that'd need to be aboard to run engineering; but that'd let you tow a bunch.


And finally, it's possible that if SD(P)s are along they might be able to extend their compensator field far enough to encompasses LACs tractored hard against their hull. That would let them run at full acceleration without any damage to the LACs; and effectively surface docked like that should be able to bring them through a grav wave as well. (Kind of like what the 2 Torch frigates did when sneaking into a slaver base system by docking to external cradles mounted on a freighter)
Top

Return to Honorverse