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To End in Fire

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: To End in Fire
Post by Joat42   » Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:40 pm

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cthia wrote:Or, Beowulf may be destined to have her date with destiny? Beowulf is now detested by her ex-lover AND the MA.

Why? Do you think all the League-members have the same opinions? And any attack on Beowulf as "revenge" is criminally stupid in the extreme for various reason, mostly because Beowulf still have League-members that are sympathetic to them. Do you think any of those members would condone another "attack" on Beowulf by League-ships?

Lets use your type of analogy and dial it up a notch: It's extremely unlikely that the lying Solarian rapist-bully will once again try to rape and beat the woman who said no to them, especially after her friends kicked the lying rapist-bully in the nuts repeatedly and told him to stay down or else. Up to this point, the Solarian league have been the lying rapist-bully for centuries, and you think when someone finally says "no" they should be punished because of karma.

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Re: To End in Fire
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:14 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
cthia wrote:Or, Beowulf may be destined to have her date with destiny? Beowulf is now detested by her ex-lover AND the MA.

Why? Do you think all the League-members have the same opinions? And any attack on Beowulf as "revenge" is criminally stupid in the extreme for various reason, mostly because Beowulf still have League-members that are sympathetic to them. Do you think any of those members would condone another "attack" on Beowulf by League-ships?

Lets use your type of analogy and dial it up a notch: It's extremely unlikely that the lying Solarian rapist-bully will once again try to rape and beat the woman who said no to them, especially after her friends kicked the lying rapist-bully in the nuts repeatedly and told him to stay down or else. Up to this point, the Solarian league have been the lying rapist-bully for centuries, and you think when someone finally says "no" they should be punished because of karma.

I don't see where any of the opinions and attitudes have changed coming out of the League. I can't speak for any of the members, but I'd hazard a guess that since they haven't fled the League that they are in lockstep with the nonsense still emanating from it. If the blurb of the new book is to be believed, the Ghost Hunters had better find some solid clues or else the Gorilla will ride again. It is no more stupidity to attack Beowulf as it is to attack Manticore.

Speaking of the SL attacking Beowulf, again? When was the first time?

New Constitutions can't ink out stupidity. The blurb clearly indicates that.

And, you still haven't come to terms with karma. Not "should" be punished for saying no in the middle of a war, "will" be punished.

Because... of karma.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:23 pm

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cthia wrote:I don't see where any of the opinions and attitudes have changed coming out of the League. I can't speak for any of the members, but I'd hazard a guess that since they haven't fled the League that they are in lockstep with the nonsense still emanating from it. If the blurb of the new book is to be believed, the Ghost Hunters had better find some solid clues or else the Gorilla will ride again. It is no more stupidity to attack Beowulf as it is to attack Manticore.


It'll depend a lot on how much PR the GA can do about their side. Given the blurb, I can confidently say that there isn't much of it (yet, anyway). Hence the need for the Ghost Hunters to turn up something, so the Solarian public opinion swings towards The Good Guys, before resentment over losing the war sets in. From there, I would say the GA investigators will be willing to share a lot of information. And that will be the bulk of the book.

I also agree with literally what you said: [i]it is no more stupidity to attack Beowulf as it is to attack Manticore[i]. That doesn't mean it's not stupid. It's plainly stupid and equally so. On one hand, Beowulf doesn't (yet) have a Navy as powerful as the RMN. On the other, it was a founding member of the League and, as Joat said, will probably still command a lot of goodwill.

Speaking of the SL attacking Beowulf, again? When was the first time?


Operation Fabius.

And, you still haven't come to terms with karma. Not "should" be punished for saying no in the middle of a war, "will" be punished.

Because... of karma.


You have a weird sense of karma. If anyone has karma coming their way, it's the League. Like Joat said, they'd been the big bully for centuries, raping hundreds of worlds in the Verge and, previously, in the Fringe and Shell. They still have some left to account for, even after losing the war, especially if they don't begin to change their ways soon.

I think the Harrington Plan hasn't gone far enough in breaking up the League. Unless there were far more battles than we've seen in ART and UH (which is likely, if Honor or the new main characters weren't present) or the Foreign Office had a really successful run of creating commercial ties. I suspect a great deal of politics on the book after this one!
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:23 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I don't see where any of the opinions and attitudes have changed coming out of the League. I can't speak for any of the members, but I'd hazard a guess that since they haven't fled the League that they are in lockstep with the nonsense still emanating from it. If the blurb of the new book is to be believed, the Ghost Hunters had better find some solid clues or else the Gorilla will ride again. It is no more stupidity to attack Beowulf as it is to attack Manticore.


It'll depend a lot on how much PR the GA can do about their side. Given the blurb, I can confidently say that there isn't much of it (yet, anyway). Hence the need for the Ghost Hunters to turn up something, so the Solarian public opinion swings towards The Good Guys, before resentment over losing the war sets in. From there, I would say the GA investigators will be willing to share a lot of information. And that will be the bulk of the book.

I also agree with literally what you said: [i]it is no more stupidity to attack Beowulf as it is to attack Manticore[i]. That doesn't mean it's not stupid. It's plainly stupid and equally so. On one hand, Beowulf doesn't (yet) have a Navy as powerful as the RMN. On the other, it was a founding member of the League and, as Joat said, will probably still command a lot of goodwill.

Speaking of the SL attacking Beowulf, again? When was the first time?


Operation Fabius.

And, you still haven't come to terms with karma. Not "should" be punished for saying no in the middle of a war, "will" be punished.

Because... of karma.


You have a weird sense of karma. If anyone has karma coming their way, it's the League. Like Joat said, they'd been the big bully for centuries, raping hundreds of worlds in the Verge and, previously, in the Fringe and Shell. They still have some left to account for, even after losing the war, especially if they don't begin to change their ways soon.

I think the Harrington Plan hasn't gone far enough in breaking up the League. Unless there were far more battles than we've seen in ART and UH (which is likely, if Honor or the new main characters weren't present) or the Foreign Office had a really successful run of creating commercial ties. I suspect a great deal of politics on the book after this one!

Yep, stupid is as stupid does, and to attack one is no more stupid than attacking the other. Note, I didn't say they have no chance of winning in the end. The SL is a huge gorilla. If the SLN trims the fat and puts on some lean mean fighting machine, heads could roll.

My sense of Karma isn't weird, simply complete. As I said in the BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA thread, Karma doesn't play favorites. The SL wrote a huge check for a big order of Karma too. It got it. So did Beowulf.

My apology, I forgot about Fabius, somehow, probably because the SLN didn't scratch any GA paint.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by jtg452   » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:34 am

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cthia wrote:My apology, I forgot about Fabius, somehow, probably because the SLN didn't scratch any GA paint.

Fabius was another MA attempt to lead the SLN into a mass slaughter- and set them up as a patsy for their attack on Beuwulf's orbital habitats. The only reason that it wasn't another slaughter was the MA didn't cherry pick the commander and he had enough sense to cut and run while he still had the chance. That also threw the timing off of the true MA attack (those nukes didn't go off until after the SLN attack was over) and made it obvious that it was the work of a 3rd party.

Why exactly did Honor end up coming to Earth with a few million of her closest friends, again?

Like I said, scalping knives. Dull, rusty scalping knives. The MA has a LOT to answer for to the League- once the League comes to grips with the reality that they have been played and set up repeatedly by them.

Remember, even much diminished, the League is still a whole lot of industrial power with a huge population. Even if it ends up only 1/4 it's original size, that's a whole lot of folks, a whole lot of research power and a whole lot of industrial capacity. Don't think for a moment that Kingsford is going to be satisfied with being a 3rd rate navy behind the likes of Grayson, or the Andies.
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:49 pm

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jtg452 wrote:Remember, even much diminished, the League is still a whole lot of industrial power with a huge population. Even if it ends up only 1/4 it's original size, that's a whole lot of folks, a whole lot of research power and a whole lot of industrial capacity. Don't think for a moment that Kingsford is going to be satisfied with being a 3rd rate navy behind the likes of Grayson, or the Andies.


He won't, but that's a multi-decade build programme. Building a cheap SD(P) isn't very difficult: just make a hollow core, add a reinforced door to one end, and a rail system to dump pods. A prototype can be constructed in 3 years from the moment they got their minds on the fact it was possible (which is probably some time during the war, in 1922). It won't be a good design and may be little more survivable in an exchange than Wayfarer was.

A proper pod-layer will take more R&D. So I'd say this non-half-assed, proper first-gen SD(P) comes out at T+6 years. But since they won't have yet the full design of the Grayson-style compensators, they'll be topping at 7.5 million tonnes (the Medusas were 8.5). The SLN will then order 100 of those which they can use to find out how to really operate an SD(P), while working on a second-gen SD(P) to begin to stand toe-to-toe to a Sovereign of Space or Adler-class SD(P), possibly superior to a Medusa. Those come at T+10 years, with an order of 500 in 4 years, perhaps massing 8 or 8.25 million tonnes (SoS is 8.75).

That would the SLN at 600 SD(P)s in T+14 years, which is 1936. With 600 SD(P)s, they'd be bigger (in quantity, not quality) than any of the individual navies in the Alliance/Union, except the RHN. They'd still be a far second to the Union as a whole, though.

The biggest problem they'll have is the actual missile. There are two big development problems for the SLN: the gravitic/quantum baffle and the power source. The latter may come out in civilian forms soon enough that SL R&D can extrapolate to military purposes given enough time, but the former will not. Until that happens, they'll be firing huge missiles, which will limit how many an individual SD(P) can fire. That means a GA/Union SD(P) will be a match for 2 or 3 SLN SD(P). Add to that Keyhole II and Apollo Control Missiles and the SLN will have a steep hill to climb.

In the end, I'd say the GA/Union manages to maintain a 3:1 quality differential for the foreseeable future, which means the SLN needs to get to 3500 second-gen SD(P)s in the active fleet before it can say it's no longer "second fiddle". If they keep the pace of 125/year on average after year 10, they'll reach that level on year 34 (1956 PD). At best, they increase the pace to 1000 ships every 3 years after the first 500, so they could get to the 3500 on T+23 years.
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:06 pm

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And all of that was only about SD(P)s. Even for capital ships that's insufficient. For a well-rounded navy, the SLN needs to also develop:
  • CLACs, which implies developing suitable LACs
  • MDM-firing BCs
  • DDM-firing cruisers and destroyers

The former requires miniaturisation. If there's a civilian version of the more powerful reactors from Manticore, the SLN can cut the development time considerably. Until then, they just make large and underpowered ones like Foraker made for the RHN, with whatever technology they have available. The CLAC itself will require more R&D to make a ship that can launch LACs and recover them without shaking itself apart, so the first prototype should take still a few years.

The latter two have the same problem as the SD(P)s: the quantum baffle. Without that, SLN dual-drive missiles are way too big to be fired from anything smaller than a BC (even with MAlign help), though if the RMN can make a ship as large as a battleship and call it a battlecruiser, so can the SLN. And it won't matter if the SLN has DDM-firing BCs: they'll fare no better against a Roland than a Nevada would. If the enemy can attack you and you can't fire back, the best you can hope for is that the enemy runs out of missiles before you run out of ships (so invest in ECM!).
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by cthia   » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:38 pm

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jtg452 wrote:
cthia wrote:My apology, I forgot about Fabius, somehow, probably because the SLN didn't scratch any GA paint.

Fabius was another MA attempt to lead the SLN into a mass slaughter- and set them up as a patsy for their attack on Beuwulf's orbital habitats. The only reason that it wasn't another slaughter was the MA didn't cherry pick the commander and he had enough sense to cut and run while he still had the chance. That also threw the timing off of the true MA attack (those nukes didn't go off until after the SLN attack was over) and made it obvious that it was the work of a 3rd party.

Why exactly did Honor end up coming to Earth with a few million of her closest friends, again?

Like I said, scalping knives. Dull, rusty scalping knives. The MA has a LOT to answer for to the League- once the League comes to grips with the reality that they have been played and set up repeatedly by them.

Remember, even much diminished, the League is still a whole lot of industrial power with a huge population. Even if it ends up only 1/4 it's original size, that's a whole lot of folks, a whole lot of research power and a whole lot of industrial capacity. Don't think for a moment that Kingsford is going to be satisfied with being a 3rd rate navy behind the likes of Grayson, or the Andies.

I certainly agree with the scalping knives. As a matter of fact, the idea of a mixed-navy juggernaut composed of the SLN, the GA and the Andermani loaded for bear and headed to Darius excites me more than it should. :oops:

To Kingsford they are all neobarbs, including the RHN. Anyway, even if the SL shed 3/4 of itself, how many of those seceded members had any direct bearing on their industrial capacity. I'd wager the SL's industrial might wasn't affected at all. And, they could afford to lose more than half of their huge coffers. It had been wasted and stolen for decades anyway.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:49 pm

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cthia wrote:To Kingsford they are all neobarbs, including the RHN. Anyway, even if the SL shed 3/4 of itself, how many of those seceded members had any direct bearing on their industrial capacity. I'd wager the SL's industrial might wasn't affected at all. And, they could afford to lose more than half of their huge coffers. It had been wasted and stolen for decades anyway.


If the distribution of seceding members is equal to the average, then 3/4 of the industrial capacity.

The problem for the League is that the seceding systems will not be average because the Foreign Office wasn't stupid, the SLN was, and the systems most likely to have independent thinking are the older, Core systems. We've only heard of one member system being targeted by Operation Buccaneer (Hypatia), but who's to say there weren't others after Hypatia and before the Battle of Sol? (We know who exactly is to say)

It only takes a handful of Core systems seceding to lose a significant percentage of the industrial might. For example, the League had something around 2000 member systems, but I don't think any one doubts that Beowulf was way more than 1/2000th of the industrial output. I wouldn't be surprised if it reached double-digit percentage!
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by jtg452   » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:58 am

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cthia wrote:
To Kingsford they are all neobarbs, including the RHN. Anyway, even if the SL shed 3/4 of itself, how many of those seceded members had any direct bearing on their industrial capacity. I'd wager the SL's industrial might wasn't affected at all. And, they could afford to lose more than half of their huge coffers. It had been wasted and stolen for decades anyway.

Kingsford had a LOT of that 'neobarb' crap knocked out of him when Honor came to visit and he realized that the whole League had been infiltrated- and played- by the 'Other Guys' and their main tool was Solly hubris.

He's undoubtedly still got his share of Solly arrogance- but it's tempered by the knowledge that they aren't the 800 pound gorilla they thought they were.
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