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To End in Fire

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: To End in Fire
Post by PeterZ   » Mon May 10, 2021 1:52 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I see a massive increase in Rolands, the commerce protection DDs (forgot the class), wards and to a lesser degree Nikes and CLACs. The total hulls will increase significantly even if the total tonnage decreases.

I also believe the RMN will adopt novel approaches to commerce protection. Like loading the LAC module similar to the ones used on Ginger Lewis' ship into the hold of freighter that's part of a convoy. Saves manpower to protect mercies.

Anyway, I can't wait to read the book!
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
We've discussed loading LACs onto freighters and the conclusion is that it's not a good idea. That makes them military targets that can be attacked without "cruiser rules" and it also makes them unable to go to certain systems which can use the presence of military craft as an excuse to deny presence in their territorial volume. Not to mention that it significantly reduces the volume for cargo and increases maintenance complexity. Moreover, while the LACs have range, the home ship is still an eggshell doing no more than 150 gravities. Lose that and the LACs are stranded.

It's probably far easier to detach a small, commerce-protection DD or CL for this role. The actual ship can be swapped for another when they come back to a home port, so this one goes down for maintenance, but leaving the commercial freighters still running without downtime. The number of people assigned to the task is likely comparable.

Military considerations are less important than piracy deterance, at least immediately after UH. Until the number of reliable hulls to patrol where ever the SLN cannot go are sufficient to the need, alternative solutions will be necessary. Piracy is punishable by death. They won't abide any civilised niceties with regards to their Sordid trade.it
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by Theemile   » Mon May 10, 2021 4:01 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
PeterZ wrote:I see a massive increase in Rolands, the commerce protection DDs (forgot the class), wards and to a lesser degree Nikes and CLACs. The total hulls will increase significantly even if the total tonnage decreases.

I also believe the RMN will adopt novel approaches to commerce protection. Like loading the LAC module similar to the ones used on Ginger Lewis' ship into the hold of freighter that's part of a convoy. Saves manpower to protect mercies.

Anyway, I can't wait to read the book!
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
We've discussed loading LACs onto freighters and the conclusion is that it's not a good idea. That makes them military targets that can be attacked without "cruiser rules" and it also makes them unable to go to certain systems which can use the presence of military craft as an excuse to deny presence in their territorial volume. Not to mention that it significantly reduces the volume for cargo and increases maintenance complexity. Moreover, while the LACs have range, the home ship is still an eggshell doing no more than 150 gravities. Lose that and the LACs are stranded.

It's probably far easier to detach a small, commerce-protection DD or CL for this role. The actual ship can be swapped for another when they come back to a home port, so this one goes down for maintenance, but leaving the commercial freighters still running without downtime. The number of people assigned to the task is likely comparable.

Military considerations are less important than piracy deterance, at least immediately after UH. Until the number of reliable hulls to patrol where ever the SLN cannot go are sufficient to the need, alternative solutions will be necessary. Piracy is punishable by death. They won't abide any civilised niceties with regards to their Sordid trade.it


What we might see is a version of what was done in Silesia. Systems which join a NATO like group, are offered a small LAC patrol of 2-3 squadrons, and a crappy freighter command post/LAC base. The LAC group would patrol the posted hyper locus for freighters and the travel route.

Any groups which join get a reduction in insurance costs in shipping, access to GA markets and financing, and GA deals on naval assets, defenses, and training. Convoys and escorts are only used as necessary, but are regionally situated to have patrol sectors.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by PeterZ   » Mon May 10, 2021 5:07 pm

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Yeah, freighters as bases for LAC squadrons would work for systems defense against the run of the mill pirate. That's pretty straight forward. All the other diplomatic carrots might take a bit of time. Quickest way to go about it is to have regional groups that meet separately, then send their reps to the GA assemply or whatever that body is called. Thinking of it as a federal used NATO or UN. They aren't a governing body, just a means to communicate about local conditions and needs to the GA leaders.
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon May 10, 2021 6:54 pm

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Before things went into the hopper with Filerta showing up to attack the Manticore System and the Oyster Bay attacks, one of the programs was to build modular LAC bases and ship them to system in the Talbot Quadrant as a practical alternative to stationing CLACs in specific systems or forcing the maintenance on the unprepared local governments.
That should be brought forward as part of the next round of productions (along with training LAC crews and support personnel- and draw a lot of them from Talbot systems if possible) to provide that protection. You have to guess that such a LAC base might have a "tender" component and have at least reasonable in-system movement capability something like a Fort since you are going to want to put sidewalls etc on them just like everything being build in the Manticore System to attempt to deal with a repeat of Oyster Bay. If you are able to place several LAC squadrons in a system, and perhaps assign even an older DD, you are going to make piracy a much tougher proposition

As far as setting up an SD (P) reserve, perhaps it would be best not to park them in a holding area like the SLN reserve fleets. Too many potential problems with a repeat of Oyster Bay and blowing up things that are neither shielded nor moving. One possible scenario would be to operate "reserve" SD(p)s in system with enough crew to navigate them, continue ongoing maintenance (they are not in storage & mothballs) and exercise their various systems. That also would let you cycle though people for training in those ships if they had to be deployed and build a pool of people with experience on them. Just don't let them get predictable in the movements.
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by PeterZ   » Mon May 10, 2021 7:57 pm

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Not mothballing SDs makes a lot of sense. How many have notes could get cycled through training on those advanced systems? The Quadrant personnel might need a more thorough program, but there will be enough of the ships to manage both groups. Starting with the SDP systems, then moving on to LACs, DDs or CLs to finish off the training.

Given the enormous population of Haven and the SEM, the impeccable reputation of the RMN and their need for more hulls, I can see getting into the RMN getting much tougher. The cream of The Quadrant, Selisia and to some extent Haven will be going for those spots.
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon May 10, 2021 8:03 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:As far as setting up an SD (P) reserve, perhaps it would be best not to park them in a holding area like the SLN reserve fleets. Too many potential problems with a repeat of Oyster Bay and blowing up things that are neither shielded nor moving. One possible scenario would be to operate "reserve" SD(p)s in system with enough crew to navigate them, continue ongoing maintenance (they are not in storage & mothballs) and exercise their various systems. That also would let you cycle though people for training in those ships if they had to be deployed and build a pool of people with experience on them. Just don't let them get predictable in the movements.


The opposite of mothballing is not mothballing. You can't keep operating a ship with a skeleton crew. That's the worst of both worlds: the ship is not ready for battle and is still putting wear and tear into its systems. Plus it's a tempting target, since the ships would be spread out and less heavily defended.

No, if you want to have a platform for LACs, make it a hybrid fort / LAC base. For SEM/Haven Union systems, that's the way to go: the fort protects the planet, its population, and major installations, while the LACs project the protection to the hyperlimit.

For non-Union systems, you need a convoy. You're not going to send an SD(P) for that. You're going to send a DD or CL, maybe a CA for a very important convoy or if the CA was going that way anyway.
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by cthia   » Tue May 11, 2021 8:39 am

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I'm afraid that the only thing Harrington accomplished in the long run is to awaken a sleeping giant.

Oh, and the SL somehow managed to hire her as a garbage collector. Ok, since it is Honor, a sanitation engineer. :roll: Honor simply took out the garbage for the SL. All of those expired ships and tech.

But now the gorilla is awake. And getting wiser. The SL does not have to be in a hurry. The gorilla is not under the gun. He can take his sweet time in the weight room. The GA dare not attack him again without provocation. And nobody else will dare anger the gorilla or kick him while he's down.

The SLs industrial might was not hurt. They have been doing this a long time. Most of the League's naval industry is located in his back yard within the Core. No navy needlessly spreads their military industry too wide. Beowulf was a special case whose junction places her essentially within the radius of the Core. Heck, she was cheating and smuggling tech out the back door of the business for years. She wasn't any real industrial use to the League anyway.

How many shipbuilding systems have been closed down in the League since the height of its war machine? How many bases have been closed that can now be restarted? Do recall how easily the US repurposed factories for the war effort. In the HV it should be melted down to a science. And there is no shortage of warm bodies in the SL.

The only thing the League needs is one hell of a Project Manager/Director. Kingsford should fit that bill perfectly to rebuild the League. In the meantime, nobody in the GA or the galaxy is coming across the hyper wall.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by cthia   » Tue May 11, 2021 8:51 am

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BTW, a reality check.

Who is to say that a fair share of the systems that the SL lost still won't do business with them? These seceded systems still need to make a living. If the SL is rebuilding its war machine and it wants to trade with an old member, that member is going to accept the offer. Albeit, it will be a much better offer as a free agent, and in the face of a new [C c]onstitution. The new arrangement will simply be more lucrative and less of a headache for the seceded system.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by munroburton   » Tue May 11, 2021 10:04 am

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cthia wrote:I'm afraid that the only thing Harrington accomplished in the long run is to awaken a sleeping giant.


It isn't one sleeping giant who woke up, but many. The rogue actions of the League bureaucracy woke up the rest of the League - and more crucially, the non-League systems all over the Core.

Of nine "Core" worlds attacked by the SLN's Operation Buccaneer, eight weren't League members. Those eight systems and others like it, plus those who left the League after Beowulf and Hypatia all consider the League their number one threat.

Any Solarian revanchism has been sharply limited to the Sol system alone. All the thousands of systems they used to rely upon and took for granted, aren't going to support them or stand idly aside again.

The Harrington Doctrine is well in motion. They'll do everything possible to balance the League's remaining members(split into numerous domestic factions) against its ex-members and the previously non-aligned systems now very worried about the League's potential for harm.
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by PeterZ   » Tue May 11, 2021 10:28 am

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Most of the volume of trans stellar trade conducted by SL megacorps was very exploitive. They sucked resources out of developing worlds at a cheap enough price to make a profit. Those star systems that had enough tech to build their own infrastructure will still do business with the SL 2.0. However, that volume was never all that great. The developing worlds that had been preyed on will NOT return if they have an alternative.

The SEM will provide capital and education or training or expertise to those developing worlds. They need those developing worlds more as a place to invest their excess cash from the WHJ, than as a source of cash inflows. Given this alternative, those systems will gladly enter the SEM economic sphere.

For those core worlds that remain in the SL 2.0, they have to weigh the risk of remaining in an economic system so used to expolicing their "partners". Quite a few core worlds will opt out just as Beowulf has. THAT fact will limit just how much of the core world industrial base will accrue to the SL 2.0.

cthia wrote:BTW, a reality check.

Who is to say that a fair share of the systems that the SL lost still won't do business with them? These seceded systems still need to make a living. If the SL is rebuilding its war machine and it wants to trade with an old member, that member is going to accept the offer. Albeit, it will be a much better offer as a free agent, and in the face of a new [C c]onstitution. The new arrangement will simply be more lucrative and less of a headache for the seceded system.
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