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To End in Fire

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Re: To End in Fire
Post by Daryl   » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:12 am

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What Peter Z is saying, reminds me of a controversy we had, where our free national parks started charging a small fee to camp there to support the amenities (showers, toilets). I didn't mind that, as you can't complain about something if it is free, and standards were low previously.
Similarly, if the members do pay a small amount to the Federation, they then have a right to a say.
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:34 am

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PeterZ wrote:
PeterZ wrote:I'm thinking that each system's government will contribute to the federal government as a sort of tithe in the SL 2.0. The exact formula will depend on population and the wealth of the system. I sincerely doubt each system will be eager to let the feds directly tax their citizens. By maintaining the mechanisms for taxation and collection local, each system keeps the feds somewhat dependant on local governments. Also, locally controlled tax mechanisms will allow locals to allocate the cost of supporting the feds in ways most suitable for local conditions.

After centuries of independence from direct taxation, member systems would want to maintain as much checks and balance on direct taxation by the feds that the GA will allow. If I am not mistaken, the Quadrant works under a similar taxation system in the SEM. I suspect Haven will as well when they integrate more closely with the SEM.
cthia wrote:Good point.

Caveat. The SL is huge, and no matter how the nuts and bolts presently under discussion will actually work, there will always be a clause written in the Constitution that bypasses it all in times of war, present or imminent danger.

No, cthia, that cannot be assumed. This last war happened because the SL federalies fabricated an emergency and took upon itself emergency powers to escalate an international incident into a shooting War it could NOT win.

Local governments would be eager to place safeguards against similar federal over reach in the future.

In light of what transpired, I agree there will be clauses written in a new Constitution with the intent to prevent that from happening again. But I can't imagine it would be so constraining that it will allow its civilian masters to hinder the ability of the navy to protect itself and its civilians in a real - but not imagined - emergency. I do think such a clause must be included. Or, an unethical navy like the MA can take advantage of the slow spinning wheels of bureaucracy.

At any rate, the person or persons who the navy will ultimately listen to will not be a civilian. Regardless of who he answers to. And whether or not the civilian appendage of the navy will formally vote to fund a war, the current ships of the navy will certainly have access to enough missiles and fuel to start a war. Or, to engage a defacto war. It could be argued that for a responsible navy to do differently would be irresponsible in the face of real and present danger.

Wrong or not, once the Mandarins started a war, would it have been irresponsible of them not to protect the system? A fair portion of the population will disagree with either answer.

Of course, it could be argued that a new Constitution will be written that prevents the SLN 2.0 to illegally start a war, but the details of who is actually responsible for the current battles is irrelevant to the task of the navy to protect. Who is actually responsible for a war may not ever be resolved even after the dust settles.

Besides, I'd hazard a guess that even the old Constitution had stopgaps to prevent what happened. But such measures are only as strong as he or she who actually commands the navy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by Relax   » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:56 am

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Daryl wrote:What Peter Z is saying, reminds me of a controversy we had, where our free national parks started charging a small fee to camp there to support the amenities (showers, toilets). I didn't mind that, as you can't complain about something if it is free, and standards were low previously.
Similarly, if the members do pay a small amount to the Federation, they then have a right to a say.

Yup, never had a problem with the campgrounds charging a small fee. I basically quit going to the national parks when they started charging to camp in the wildlands with no amenities. Thankfully we have plenty of places that are just as good as the the national parks if you are willing to hike and do not have to pay.
_________
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:16 am

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Daryl wrote:What Peter Z is saying, reminds me of a controversy we had, where our free national parks started charging a small fee to camp there to support the amenities (showers, toilets). I didn't mind that, as you can't complain about something if it is free, and standards were low previously.
Similarly, if the members do pay a small amount to the Federation, they then have a right to a say.
Relax wrote:Yup, never had a problem with the campgrounds charging a small fee. I basically quit going to the national parks when they started charging to camp in the wildlands with no amenities. Thankfully we have plenty of places that are just as good as the the national parks if you are willing to hike and do not have to pay.
Both of you have the real life examples of what the SL 2.0 will face. None of the rich core worlds view the federal government as essential to their prosperity. At best the federal government provides a minor but valuable service with respect to inter system trade and policing. Each of the wealthy core world star systems can find alternatives to what the federal government provides. After all, they don't need to trade physical materials and they likely have the IP on most of the goodies produced in the SL and will be produced in the SL 2.0. If they run short of basic raw materials they can always find an uninhabited system to exploit.

Sure it would be more expensive, but the option is available. Heck, those rich core worlds can recruit from the Verge and Fringe worlds for people to work such material extraction facilities at much lower wages than they would pay in the core worlds. So, while the start up costs would be higher the maintenance and variable costs might well be lower for any core world that finds itself needing more raw materials. The SL 2.0 for these star systems is a convenience and not a necessity.

For the second and third tier member worlds, the SL 2.0 might well be much more important as they are forced to trade with other systems with more IP resources and capital than they have. Trade is the fastest way to grow their economies to get foreign direct investment which will further grow their economies. Those star systems have to balance the cost of the FDI. OFS charged a staggeringly high price for FDI. Yet as we have seen in Chetobor (sp?), the locals will pay some lower price to attract FDI from SL Transsetllars. Having a federal government to facilitate and spread the cost of maintaining such ongoing trade will be very important to those poorer member systems.

Since they out number the core worlds, just what sort of protections will the rich core worlds demand in the SL 2.0's constitution? They certainly want to be protected from a pure democracy that leaves them out numbered. They would also want to limit the federal government's ability to directly tax the wealth of their citizens. Those wealthy systems would certainly demand some way to prevent the more numerous and less wealthy worlds from legislating policy that transfers wealth away from their people and corporations.

I am really curious to see just how the new SL 2.0 shapes up.
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:01 pm

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cthia wrote:Plays With Fire is not Harahap's Treecat. It is Harahap's Treecat name given to him by his treecat Clean Killer, who is now Fire Watch. That seems more like a typo on your part?


Not a typo, but yes I was confused. "Plays with Fire" is Harahap's treecat name.

But I agree. It seems a given Harahap and Fire Watch will somehow factor in on the search for the Alignment since Harahap has inside information and previous contacts, and has been converted. However, using Harahap could backfire, if he is recognized by the wrong person. So, extensive biosculpt or some sort of effective disguise may be in order.


What does it matter if he's recognised?

BTW, Indiana is also supposed to feature in this book (which means Abigail Hearns probably will too). But I wonder what his role will be.
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:50 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Plays With Fire is not Harahap's Treecat. It is Harahap's Treecat name given to him by his treecat Clean Killer, who is now Fire Watch. That seems more like a typo on your part?


Not a typo, but yes I was confused. "Plays with Fire" is Harahap's treecat name.

But I agree. It seems a given Harahap and Fire Watch will somehow factor in on the search for the Alignment since Harahap has inside information and previous contacts, and has been converted. However, using Harahap could backfire, if he is recognized by the wrong person. So, extensive biosculpt or some sort of effective disguise may be in order.


What does it matter if he's recognised?

BTW, Indiana is also supposed to feature in this book (which means Abigail Hearns probably will too). But I wonder what his role will be.

If he is disguised he can use his knowledge and visit old haunts to put a tail on certain MA contacts. But if they recognize him they will scatter. Attempting some sort of ruse as himself would be risky and the MA could assassinate him on the spot.

Dunno what Indy's part will be, but if he dies it is going to light an awful fire under Abby's ass. She will have to channel the pain of a lost love just like Honor.

sigh

:cry:

I pity the fool!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by turol   » Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:42 pm

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cthia wrote:
If he is disguised he can use his knowledge and visit old haunts to put a tail on certain MA contacts. But if they recognize him they will scatter.


I think it's safe to say that all people who had contact with Harahap on Mesa have been either Houdinied or nuked.
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:40 pm

cthia
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turol wrote:
cthia wrote:
If he is disguised he can use his knowledge and visit old haunts to put a tail on certain MA contacts. But if they recognize him they will scatter.


I think it's safe to say that all people who had contact with Harahap on Mesa have been either Houdinied or nuked.

Remember, Houdini was rushed, so, I wouldn't be surprised if there are lotsa loose ends. Loose ends whose rage of being used is feeding a sense of revenge.

Besides, Harahap's haunts seem to have set up house all over the Galaxy. Even if under assumed names.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:55 pm

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cthia wrote:Remember, Houdini was rushed, so, I wouldn't be surprised if there are lotsa loose ends. Loose ends whose rage of being used is feeding a sense of revenge.

Besides, Harahap's haunts seem to have set up house all over the Galaxy. Even if under assumed names.


I got the impression it was not all over the Galaxy. It was instead limited to very specific sectors, because he was employed by the Gendarmerie and therefore had a commanding officer who was handling him.

I also got the impression that he was only on Mesa once or twice, ever. So he wouldn't know much about he on-Mesa Alignment people. He may have struck out on his own while he was there and found some criminal elements that may come in handy, but those are likely seccies. So I wouldn't expect him to be of much use to find old contacts in this book.

But I'll be happy to be proven wrong. And he may have other skills too.
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Re: To End in Fire
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:19 am

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The SL did provide a number of things that were both useful and needed by it's members though some of that was twisted by the bureaucracy.

Most visible is SLN which did serve useful and beneficial roles- 1st being the stick that enforced member systems from not getting involved in military actions against one another. That internal peacekeeping showed up as a serious issue since it had been mentioned in the books that some systems had to be restrained by at least the threat of intervention from military action against neighbors (not, however against systems that were outside the League or under the "protection" of OFS. The SLN also did provide commerce protection against pirates though that is another iffy bit since OFS and their various clients were using Frontier Fleet as enforcers. FF

The League did maintain standardized trade and customs regulation (and enforcement) within the League. Based on the reading, a lot of the navigational and Astro Control regulations were also maintained at the League Level though operated by local systems.

The Gendarmerie is basically a national (in this case League wide) military organization operating as police force and working both at internal League security and enforcing League as well as various local laws in systems. (and back to the same corruption potential)

The League Assembly and other bodies provided a means and method of settling disagreements between members. The League also provided an overreaching diplomatic system both internally and with systems and Star Nations - consistency in operations is helpful. They also were providing (or were supposed to) regulation of things like Trans Stellar Corporations which are otherwise functioning as governments.
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