Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 43 guests

Wormhole Assault: MA Style

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:24 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Joat42 wrote:Chtia, I'm not so sure the alignment of the transition-zone is towards the planet. I'm more inclined to believe it's determined by the local star. I have no textev to support this, but it sounds reasonable since we know that the junctions are created (somehow) by the gravitational interactions between different stars.

Also, I'm pretty sure that any grav eddies for a terminus are very local otherwise it should be pretty easy to find and map them and we know from the books that is not the case.

Regardless, an attack through a wormhole at the MWJ is doomed to fail against prepared defenses. Can an attacker inflict enough damage to degrade the defenses? Possibly, but very unlikely.

Can a traditional attack launched from outside the system succeed? Probably, but the amount of resources you need to accomplish it would be in the extreme.

If we are speculating and if consider the MO of the MAlign it's more likely they would attack the system using some kind subterfuge and/or spoiling attacks, for example managing to smuggle bombs onto the forts.


I forgot to mention this.


An LD (submarine) and indeed a Spider, is the epitome of subterfuge.

An LD = submarine = subterfuge

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44888103

I don't think many of us realize how MAlign technology has altered the paradigm of strategy and tactics here in the Honorverse. It is going to be as eventful as when submarines first appeared on the scene in the 20th century.

Weather forecast: Shipping losses. Warships have always been on the menu.


Rank: What rank is in command of an LD? An LD is equivalent to a flagship in a GA navy. Flagships are commanded by Admirals. Is that …

Admirals that are Alphas or Alphas that are Admirals.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:09 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5060
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

cthia wrote:
Rank: What rank is in command of an LD? An LD is equivalent to a flagship in a GA navy. Flagships are commanded by Admirals. Is that …

Admirals that are Alphas or Alphas that are Admirals.


LDs are just capital ships. If they follow the pattern of every other major navy, they are be captained (role) by a senior rate Captain (rank).

And if you argue about Flagships having admirals - Flagships are commanded by Captains (role) - Capital ships are usually commanded by a senior rate Captain (rank). Admirals lead formations, and their office is on a Flagship if they go to space. If the Captain (role) is commanding a Flagship, he may referred to as having the role of a Flag Captain, but his rank will be that of Captain (or whatever rank he holds for the ship size).
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by kzt   » Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:12 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11337
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Theemile wrote:
LDs are just capital ships. If they follow the pattern of every other major navy, they are be captained (role) by a senior rate Captain (rank).

And if you argue about Flagships having admirals - Flagships are commanded by Captains (role) - Capital ships are usually commanded by a senior rate Captain (rank). Admirals lead formations, and their office is on a Flagship if they go to space. If the Captain (role) is commanding a Flagship, he may referred to as having the role of a Flag Captain, but his rank will be that of Captain (or whatever rank he holds for the ship size).

SLN has a rank inflation problem, but the MAN does not appear to.
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:27 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4103
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

Theemile wrote:LDs are just capital ships. If they follow the pattern of every other major navy, they are be captained (role) by a senior rate Captain (rank).


Though they could come to the conclusion that they are so big, powerful and expensive that they should require the seniority of Commodore.

Then you have a situation like the Terran Commonwealth Navy in Glynn Stewart's Castle Federation universe that commodores and captains would create confusion:
  • The CO of the ship has a rank of Commodore, but is referred to as "captain"
  • The Flag officer's chief of staff has rank of Captain, but receives a courtesy promotion to "commodore" to avoid confusion as to who captains the ship (Marine captains are "major")
  • The XO of the ship has a rank one step lower than the CO (captain), but receives the similar courtesy promotion

The HV navies match the Coraline Imperium ranks in that universe, with two levels of Captain. The Castle Federation itself renamed the O-6 rank to "Senior Commander."

PS: In that universe, the Royal Phoenix Navy had a Fearless-class ship called Courageous, and Phoenix is a constitutional monarchy on a binary star system, with three inhabitable planets, the richest single-system polity in the region. The prime minister was Leanne Summervale and the current monarch is a queen (not named Elizabeth).
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by kzt   » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:51 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11337
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

What's interesting is that while you do have the marine thing, in reality an aircraft carrier often has multiple captains on the ship (the CO and the RO are both 0-6 slots and the XO sometimes ends up as an O-6 before he rotates), plus one or more on the flag staff.

Nobody seems to get confused.
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Somtaaw   » Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:51 am

Somtaaw
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:36 am
Location: Canada

kzt wrote:
Theemile wrote:
LDs are just capital ships. If they follow the pattern of every other major navy, they are be captained (role) by a senior rate Captain (rank).

And if you argue about Flagships having admirals - Flagships are commanded by Captains (role) - Capital ships are usually commanded by a senior rate Captain (rank). Admirals lead formations, and their office is on a Flagship if they go to space. If the Captain (role) is commanding a Flagship, he may referred to as having the role of a Flag Captain, but his rank will be that of Captain (or whatever rank he holds for the ship size).

SLN has a rank inflation problem, but the MAN does not appear to.


The MAN according to text-ev has heavily based its own Standard Operating Procedures around those of the RMN. At the time of Oyster Bay, they didn't have enough trained personnel nor was there enough space aboard the Sharks, so some were 'doubling up' on jobs. Which led to one of the MAN Commodores we saw a POV from, was acting as both the Commodore commanding the whole attack component (specifically the Manticore Alpha one, iirc) and acting as his own Flag Captain for the Shark he was personally aboard.


However kzt, you are also very right that the LD's are more analogous to submarines rather than capital ships. They're ambush predators, combining the roles of both Attack Submarines and Strategic Deterrent ICBM platforms into one platform. Those are, in modern times anyway, always skippered by senior captains, and many of the senior officers also tend to be higher on average for Time-In-Grade.


So I think overall LD's would probably split the difference to be 'skippered' by Commodores, and not Captains. But they also won't be true flagships and have an Admiral whose sole purpose is running an entire squadron of LD's... even if they may in fact actually operate in squadrons from time to time. So from the outside looking in, they'll appear to be braid-heavy like the SLN; but they'd definitely be closer to RMN for effectiveness & efficiency.
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:15 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5060
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

kzt wrote:
Theemile wrote:
LDs are just capital ships. If they follow the pattern of every other major navy, they are be captained (role) by a senior rate Captain (rank).

And if you argue about Flagships having admirals - Flagships are commanded by Captains (role) - Capital ships are usually commanded by a senior rate Captain (rank). Admirals lead formations, and their office is on a Flagship if they go to space. If the Captain (role) is commanding a Flagship, he may referred to as having the role of a Flag Captain, but his rank will be that of Captain (or whatever rank he holds for the ship size).

SLN has a rank inflation problem, but the MAN does not appear to.


In the SLN, SDs were commanded by senior rate captains. We saw this in both Crandall's and Filareta's fleets.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:03 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

What role would be left for Admirals? A major assault on a system, like the assault represented by this thread, would certainly be commanded by an Admiral, no? And flagships are chosen for their safety. Wouldn't an LD be the safest platform to fly ones flag? Depending on whether the author allows some sort of communication from / between the LDs, then commanding the fleet would be carried out aboard a very stealthy ship. No?

At any rate, are Admirals in the MAN simply planners behind the "front line" who are never destined to see battle lest Darius is invaded? In which case a MAN admiral never gets any experience.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:15 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8269
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

cthia wrote:What role would be left for Admirals? A major assault on a system, like the assault represented by this thread, would certainly be commanded by an Admiral, no? And flagships are chosen for their safety. Wouldn't an LD be the safest platform to fly ones flag? Depending on whether the author allows some sort of communication from / between the LDs, then commanding the fleet would be carried out aboard a very stealthy ship. No?

At any rate, are Admirals in the MAN simply planners behind the "front line" who are never destined to see battle lest Darius is invaded? In which case a MAN admiral never gets any experience.

Actually flagships are normally chosen for the extra space they set aside for the flag and the flag staff, and possibly for extra communications equipment they carry.

In WWII a USN fleet's flagship was often an aircraft carrier -- and, while large, they're far less safe for the likely type of combat than a battleship. OTOH the Admiral is primarily commanding air combat, so there's benefit to being close to the air wing, and they've lots of space.

And even in battleships USS South Dakota was built as a flagship variant of her class, and had to give up 2 dual 5" mounts to fit the extra flag facilities and still stay within the treaty displacement limits -- so arguably, as she carried fewer defensive weapons, she'd be less safe than the other 3 members of her class.


So yes, the fleet flagship is usually one of its capital ships, and thus generally safer than the escorts. But that's more because those ships have the room and communications to support an admiral and the staff necessary to command a full fleet.
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by kzt   » Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:35 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11337
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Jonathan_S wrote:
So yes, the fleet flagship is usually one of its capital ships, and thus generally safer than the escorts. But that's more because those ships have the room and communications to support an admiral and the staff necessary to command a full fleet.

This is what made the whole idea that you couldn't fit any marines on a Roland utterly unbelievable. You have the space for the staterooms of the Squadron CO and his staff of officers and senior NCOs, and the briefing rooms, planning spaces, and flag bridge but nowhere that a platoon of marines can sleep?
Top

Return to Honorverse