Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests

Wormhole Assault: MA Style

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:35 am

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2004
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

kzt wrote:Can you explain how you came up with 1000 tons?

David takes pains to mention that a CA class graser like they mount is 3000 tons.

And at 1000 tons it’s roughly 1/3 to 1/5 the side of a modern RMN missile pod. And a 4cmillion ton podlayer could carry over a thousand of them.


The wiki says a recon drone was 270 tonnes, though I admit it doesn't say which generation of RD that is. In the conversation between Detweiler and Detweiler, Detweiler says that because they haven't cracked the secret of the small power plants, their GT was 3x bigger than a recon drone. 3 * 270 = 810 tonnes. I rounded up.

I also admit this number is smaller than I had expected them to be. I was expecting it to be in the 10,000 tonne range.
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:05 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4337
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
kzt wrote:Can you explain how you came up with 1000 tons?

David takes pains to mention that a CA class graser like they mount is 3000 tons.

And at 1000 tons it’s roughly 1/3 to 1/5 the side of a modern RMN missile pod. And a 4cmillion ton podlayer could carry over a thousand of them.


The wiki says a recon drone was 270 tonnes, though I admit it doesn't say which generation of RD that is. In the conversation between Detweiler and Detweiler, Detweiler says that because they haven't cracked the secret of the small power plants, their GT was 3x bigger than a recon drone. 3 * 270 = 810 tonnes. I rounded up.

I also admit this number is smaller than I had expected them to be. I was expecting it to be in the 10,000 tonne range.


The 270 tons # was very early on - like pre-war. Now there are dozens of sizes and types of drones and we have not seen a single one described in depth. Permanent System Recon Drones are in the thousands of tons - Morierty and Mycroft drones are even larger.

Another thing we have to be careful with - 3x which size? mass, length, width, breadth? Mass is usually the measure in the Hverse (and volume should track with it on a 1:1 basis), but David could easily mean the length - which means volume (and mass) could increase by a factor of 27 if the other factors increased to the same degree.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:46 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13370
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Question:

Let's say that an LD somehow lands up in quicksand, imminently having to defend itself against a Fort. The LD has a terrifying energy weapon plus gtorps. What should its tactic be? To engage the enemy with coordinated weapons? Which should land first, the gtorps or the energy weapon? Or should both have a simultaneous time on target? And if the LD can fire several mains at once?

What should the LD's tactic be, if battle with the Fort is imminent?

With and without bubble walls.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:35 am

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2004
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

cthia wrote:Let's say that an LD somehow lands up in quicksand, imminently having to defend itself against a Fort. The LD has a terrifying energy weapon plus gtorps. What should its tactic be? To engage the enemy with coordinated weapons? Which should land first, the gtorps or the energy weapon? Or should both have a simultaneous time on target? And if the LD can fire several mains at once?

What should the LD's tactic be, if battle with the Fort is imminent?


For all we know, there's no way to survive. The LD is toast. It must avoid the quicksand in the first place: don't pass an enemy at low relative velocities.

This glaring weakness only tells me that there's more to the LD design that we know.
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:55 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13370
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Let's say that an LD somehow lands up in quicksand, imminently having to defend itself against a Fort. The LD has a terrifying energy weapon plus gtorps. What should its tactic be? To engage the enemy with coordinated weapons? Which should land first, the gtorps or the energy weapon? Or should both have a simultaneous time on target? And if the LD can fire several mains at once?

What should the LD's tactic be, if battle with the Fort is imminent?


For all we know, there's no way to survive. The LD is toast. It must avoid the quicksand in the first place: don't pass an enemy at low relative velocities.

This glaring weakness only tells me that there's more to the LD design that we know.


WWHD 4 THE HONOR OF THE QUEEN

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:52 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13370
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Mano a mano - with or without missile pods.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:29 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13370
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Textev claims that the LDs were under construction even before Oyster Bay. The only reason they were not used is because they were not ready.

The Great Pyramids are a perfect example if you consider the size of the task. It was a Herculean effort. Even by today's standards. In fact, modern man can't even duplicate the feat even with present technology, even in thrice the time.
???
Nobody bothers to build things like that, but the largest blocks in the Great Pyramid are apparently "only" 80 tons - with most being closer to 15 tons. Cutting, transporting, and lifting those are easily within the capabilities of present technology. (They'd be oversized loads; but nothing too crazy). And moving 2.5 million blocks is a logistical hassle, but again hardly an insurmountable one.

It'd still cost quite a lot, but I've zero doubt that if Jeff Bezos whipped out his check book and agreed to pay whatever it took that somebody would be able to build a perfect replica of the Great Pyramid in far, far, less than 60 years (thrice the time)


LOL


You totally misunderstood.

Plus... thrice is being nice.


All of Jeff Bezos's money isn't going to solve the problems. Bill Gates and a few others can pitch in to. And it still won't get it done. The ultimate problem isn't one of economics. It isn't a logistics problem either. It's a technical one. I've had this conversation with my peers since college. Civil Engineering. It ain't gonna happen.

Oh, we can build "a" pyramid. Perhaps even one as large. Especially if we can do it in concrete.

But it will pale in comparison to what is sitting in the desert. It has to last. In the desert. Unattended. For five millennia. We've lost those skills.

We will pull off a cheap imitation. But if anyone tells you differently, keep your checkbook in your pocket.

It's an old, popular breakroom topic.


Herculean in scope. Breadth. Not magnitude.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:45 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4337
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

cthia wrote:
LOL


You totally misunderstood.

Plus... thrice is being nice.


All of Jeff Bezos's money isn't going to solve the problems. Bill Gates and a few others can pitch in to. And it still won't get it done. The ultimate problem isn't one of economics. It isn't a logistics problem either. It's a technical one. I've had this conversation with my peers since college. Civil Engineering. It ain't gonna happen.

Oh, we can build "a" pyramid. Perhaps even one as large. Especially if we can do it in concrete.

But it will pale in comparison to what is sitting in the desert. It has to last. In the desert. Unattended. For five millennia. We've lost those skills.

We will pull off a cheap imitation. But if anyone tells you differently, keep your checkbook in your pocket.

It's an old, popular breakroom topic.


Herculean in scope. Breadth. Not magnitude.



Gonna call total BS on this one.

Ever go shopping for granite countertops? There are warehouses of slabs cut to roughly 3x3 meter by 3 CM slabs. When these are quarried, they are removed from the quarry in large pieces to a nearby fabricating site and cut and polished prior to shipment to the local vendors. It would be simple to polish the quarried pieces into larger pieces (say 3x3x3 m) instead of cutting them into 3-6 cm thick slabs. It would need some different equipment probably, but just simple engineering to change. I don't know about your experience, but my countertops are smooth and durable.

We have cranes that can pick up 250,000 ton modules and place it on top of multi hundred foot stalks (a Solar collector in California had it's top boiler/turbine module pre-fabricated then lifted onto it's tower in one step.) We have modular transporters to move millions of tons - need to move more, add more transporter modules - they link together and run off diesel. Besides, we have dump trucks in quarries that multiple blocks could fit in the bed of.

Precision cutting into the rocks for a Stele - the work done on marble/granite gravestones is pretty impressive, and done quite quickly - most have moved to CAD/CAM

Maybe the local masons don't have the ability to carve a statue - but ever see the National Cathedral? - they are cutting( and fitting) the whole cathedral old school - lots of meticulous detail work. Yes, their pieces are only feet on a side, not dozens, but they have the skills to work stone by hand still. You want bulk pieces, see above.

So what is missing that we cannot do today?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:33 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6994
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:
LOL


You totally misunderstood.

Plus... thrice is being nice.


All of Jeff Bezos's money isn't going to solve the problems. Bill Gates and a few others can pitch in to. And it still won't get it done. The ultimate problem isn't one of economics. It isn't a logistics problem either. It's a technical one. I've had this conversation with my peers since college. Civil Engineering. It ain't gonna happen.

Oh, we can build "a" pyramid. Perhaps even one as large. Especially if we can do it in concrete.

But it will pale in comparison to what is sitting in the desert. It has to last. In the desert. Unattended. For five millennia. We've lost those skills.

We will pull off a cheap imitation. But if anyone tells you differently, keep your checkbook in your pocket.

It's an old, popular breakroom topic.


Herculean in scope. Breadth. Not magnitude.



Gonna call total BS on this one.

Ever go shopping for granite countertops? There are warehouses of slabs cut to roughly 3x3 meter by 3 CM slabs. When these are quarried, they are removed from the quarry in large pieces to a nearby fabricating site and cut and polished prior to shipment to the local vendors. It would be simple to polish the quarried pieces into larger pieces (say 3x3x3 m) instead of cutting them into 3-6 cm thick slabs. It would need some different equipment probably, but just simple engineering to change. I don't know about your experience, but my countertops are smooth and durable.

We have cranes that can pick up 250,000 ton modules and place it on top of multi hundred foot stalks (a Solar collector in California had it's top boiler/turbine module pre-fabricated then lifted onto it's tower in one step.) We have modular transporters to move millions of tons - need to move more, add more transporter modules - they link together and run off diesel. Besides, we have dump trucks in quarries that multiple blocks could fit in the bed of.

Precision cutting into the rocks for a Stele - the work done on marble/granite gravestones is pretty impressive, and done quite quickly - most have moved to CAD/CAM

Maybe the local masons don't have the ability to carve a statue - but ever see the National Cathedral? - they are cutting( and fitting) the whole cathedral old school - lots of meticulous detail work. Yes, their pieces are only feet on a side, not dozens, but they have the skills to work stone by hand still. You want bulk pieces, see above.

So what is missing that we cannot do today?
Maybe we don't have mortar that's stable for millennia?
I know that modern concrete is optimized in ways that make it more useful, but less long-lasting, than Roman concrete. (For example it cures and can bear loads far sooner) But I don't know if there's an equivalent issue with mortar.

But unlike a lot of structures the pyramids are pretty straightforward. They're giant piles of closely fitted stone with mortar evening out the gaps. But there's basically no elements in tension, and the slope of the pyramid is well within the angle of repose of the stone so there's relatively little pressure pushing the base apart; and there are relatively few voids within the structure.

That seems to mean that the properties of the mortar shouldn't be that critical.

So, it seems like if you pick the correct type of stone, stack it into the correct shape, and put it onto a geologically stable bit of land then a modern built pyramid would also last for ages; because there's just not much to go wrong.
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:15 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4337
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:

Gonna call total BS on this one.

Ever go shopping for granite countertops? There are warehouses of slabs cut to roughly 3x3 meter by 3 CM slabs. When these are quarried, they are removed from the quarry in large pieces to a nearby fabricating site and cut and polished prior to shipment to the local vendors. It would be simple to polish the quarried pieces into larger pieces (say 3x3x3 m) instead of cutting them into 3-6 cm thick slabs. It would need some different equipment probably, but just simple engineering to change. I don't know about your experience, but my countertops are smooth and durable.

We have cranes that can pick up 250,000 ton modules and place it on top of multi hundred foot stalks (a Solar collector in California had it's top boiler/turbine module pre-fabricated then lifted onto it's tower in one step.) We have modular transporters to move millions of tons - need to move more, add more transporter modules - they link together and run off diesel. Besides, we have dump trucks in quarries that multiple blocks could fit in the bed of.

Precision cutting into the rocks for a Stele - the work done on marble/granite gravestones is pretty impressive, and done quite quickly - most have moved to CAD/CAM

Maybe the local masons don't have the ability to carve a statue - but ever see the National Cathedral? - they are cutting( and fitting) the whole cathedral old school - lots of meticulous detail work. Yes, their pieces are only feet on a side, not dozens, but they have the skills to work stone by hand still. You want bulk pieces, see above.

So what is missing that we cannot do today?
Maybe we don't have mortar that's stable for millennia?
I know that modern concrete is optimized in ways that make it more useful, but less long-lasting, than Roman concrete. (For example it cures and can bear loads far sooner) But I don't know if there's an equivalent issue with mortar.

But unlike a lot of structures the pyramids are pretty straightforward. They're giant piles of closely fitted stone with mortar evening out the gaps. But there's basically no elements in tension, and the slope of the pyramid is well within the angle of repose of the stone so there's relatively little pressure pushing the base apart; and there are relatively few voids within the structure.

That seems to mean that the properties of the mortar shouldn't be that critical.

So, it seems like if you pick the correct type of stone, stack it into the correct shape, and put it onto a geologically stable bit of land then a modern built pyramid would also last for ages; because there's just not much to go wrong.


Even if the mortars and concretes we use isn't as resilient, who is to say we cannot make said if we tried. I know the secret of Roman concrete was cracked - the sand used was the fine crushed Vesiuvus ash - in short, a crushed pumice with great binding characterics and was hydrophobic. If we decided to build using such materials we could, assuming we still had access to such base materials (as much was mined and used in Roman times). But as you said, the working properties would be different than modern mixtures, and while longevity might be a feature, overall strength and working time might be inferior to modern concretes.

In the same light, most current concretes don't use chopped strand fiberglass in their admixtures, even though they greatly increase the torsion and sheer strengths of the finished product. The reason why is simple cost savings, as is the reason not to use fiberglass rebar. It has similar thermal expansion ratios to steel and a far lower corrosion factor than even epoxied steel. Chopped strand, fiberglass rebar and fiberglass mat and yarn are used heavily in concrete in the Scandinavian countries due to the better cold temp performance of the glass and resiliency to moisture caused corrosion over conventional reinforcements, but doesn't have much market penetration outside there.

Economics (especially on the scales we are discussing) do dictate the use of cheaper materials in "real world" projects. The discussion often devolves to "can we afford to do it that way" even when the answer to "can we do it that way" is yes.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top

Return to Honorverse