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Wormhole Assault: MA Style

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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:12 pm

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cthia wrote:Au contraire mon frère, it can do both. It no longer has to keep the range open against targets which have now been destroyed.


Sure, but those are not a threat. The threat are the targets that have not been destroyed.

Are you saying that the LD can perform a zero-zero with wreckage, so the opponent would be wary of shooting it down for worry of hitting their possible survivors? Well... that's an idea. Incredibly reckless, because now the opponent has localised the LD, but possible.

Plus, a Wolfpack of LDs, and their toys, are going to wreak havoc on the GA's ability to determine where, when, and how many, against a foe they cannot see, sense, and have no idea about their maximum acceleration. And that it is so low.


That's true, but that's neither here nor there for the point we're discussing, which is that of a missile salvo that was, somehow, correctly aimed losing its control links and going off on its own.

And about this handing off capability, it is going to be a disaster if the LDs have learned how to control GA missiles.

"They stole the fucking handoff!" :lol:


Or the SLN. Or the RHN. Or the PN.

It doesn't look like those encryptions are fragile enough to be broken in the 9 minutes of the missile's lifetime. There are probably master keys that are programmed for each engagement, distributed over the tacnet.

Which is actually the main cyber warfare goal: breaking into the enemy's tactical communications network. If you can tell exactly what they're saying to each other and were the fleet COs are, you've got a huge advantage. Better if you can send a command to shut down (or, like the Borg, to sleep). But this has not happened in any of the wars so far. Not even the RMN has managed to break into PN or SS comms and we know those were very, very poorly maintained. on an individual ship basis.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:17 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Au contraire mon frère, it can do both. It no longer has to keep the range open against targets which have now been destroyed.


Sure, but those are not a threat. The threat are the targets that have not been destroyed.

Have not been destroyed yet.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Are you saying that the LD can perform a zero-zero with wreckage, so the opponent would be wary of shooting it down for worry of hitting their possible survivors? Well... that's an idea. Incredibly reckless, because now the opponent has localised the LD, but possible.

No, I am saying the LD may be keeping the range open by destroying the closest targets. If there is a pack of LDs, and or toys, which are causing things to go boom all over the system then tracking targets that cannot be seen much less localized is going to be a copper-plated Ransom in the middle of a battle. While excrement is gathering in your undies.

The RMN has always been cool calm and collected in the middle of a battle. It is due to extraordinary training. But they may lose some of that calm against an opponent they cannot see. It is easy to remain calm against the movements of an opponent who you can see is giving you enough time to scare up a few sandwiches. There may not be so much calm against a ghost.

cthia wrote:Plus, a Wolfpack of LDs, and their toys, are going to wreak havoc on the GA's ability to determine where, when, and how many, against a foe they cannot see, sense, and have no idea about their maximum acceleration. And that it is so low.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's true, but that's neither here nor there for the point we're discussing, which is that of a missile salvo that was, somehow, correctly aimed losing its control links and going off on its own.

It was meant as a discontinuation of the notion that the quite possibly desperate GA CO can simply aimlessly chuck missiles.

cthia wrote:And about this handing off capability, it is going to be a disaster if the LDs have learned how to control GA missiles.

"They stole the fucking handoff!" :lol:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Or the SLN. Or the RHN. Or the PN.

It doesn't look like those encryptions are fragile enough to be broken in the 9 minutes of the missile's lifetime. There are probably master keys that are programmed for each engagement, distributed over the tacnet.

Which is actually the main cyber warfare goal: breaking into the enemy's tactical communications network. If you can tell exactly what they're saying to each other and were the fleet COs are, you've got a huge advantage. Better if you can send a command to shut down (or, like the Borg, to sleep). But this has not happened in any of the wars so far. Not even the RMN has managed to break into PN or SS comms and we know those were very, very poorly maintained. on an individual ship basis.

True. And against any other foe I might not have considered it, but, any other foe does not have the resources of the MA. Like the level of infiltration (though dwindling) and the ruthless use of "biological warfare."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:39 am

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cthia wrote:Have not been destroyed yet.
[...]
No, I am saying the LD may be keeping the range open by destroying the closest targets. If there is a pack of LDs, and or toys, which are causing things to go boom all over the system then tracking targets that cannot be seen much less localized is going to be a copper-plated Ransom in the middle of a battle. While excrement is gathering in your undies.


You're changing the scenario again.

The scenario is: the RMN was somehow able to localise an LD. Someone will fire.

If the LD is close to a set of targets not yet destroyed, then those targets are firing on the LD. And if they are close enough, they stand a good chance of actually hitting and compromising the stealth. Worst case scenario is that the LD needs to engage active defences, which again localises the ship by, at worst, the explosions of the missiles. That means any trailing missiles that were launched by ships or pods further out should not have a problem picking up a very good signal of where to focus their fire.

And even if there is a risk to the ships closer in, I would expect the missiles further out to be launched any way. And yes, the LD could decide to hide in the wreckage of those ships it's just destroyed. That's probably a war crime right there, but not one I'd expect the MAN to have any qualms about it. In that case, the ships controlling the incoming salvo will have to decide whether to abort or to proceed, even at the risk of killing fellow spacers. It might be a case of "needs of the many."

cthia wrote:It was meant as a discontinuation of the notion that the quite possibly desperate GA CO can simply aimlessly chuck missiles.


I don't think there is such a thing as aimlessly or random firing. And even if there were, that is not "firing towards your own forces" -- that has a very specific aim and not random.

Space is just too big. Shooting blind without having a minimum of an idea of where the enemy is has absolutely zero chance of hitting something. You have to know something. In that case, it's not aimless nor random.

It might not be a very good targetting solution. But as you said, if they are getting hammered, better fire those missiles at ghosts and shadows than die with them unfired.

cthia wrote:True. And against any other foe I might not have considered it, but, any other foe does not have the resources of the MA. Like the level of infiltration (though dwindling) and the ruthless use of "biological warfare."


Actually, many other foes did have very good resources. The Solarians may have been arrogant enough and not dedicated sufficient resource, but if they had really wanted, they had them. The PN and the IAN had definitely infiltrated the RMN. Just look at how many times Rabenstrage knew things when talking to Honor that were RMN and Manticoran secrets.

On the other hand, the MAlign infiltration has come to an end, thanks to six-limbed furry lie detectors. And the MAlign has no idea this is how. So they don't even have a counter for it. At best, they could deploy regular spies without compulsion, but the past 20 years of warfare have shown that those kinds of cyber intrusion just don't happen. I have no reason to believe that's about to change.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:32 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Have not been destroyed yet.
[...]
No, I am saying the LD may be keeping the range open by destroying the closest targets. If there is a pack of LDs, and or toys, which are causing things to go boom all over the system then tracking targets that cannot be seen much less localized is going to be a copper-plated Ransom in the middle of a battle. While excrement is gathering in your undies.


You're changing the scenario again.

The scenario is: the RMN was somehow able to localise an LD. Someone will fire.

Localization was never my scenario. It wasn't anyone else's scenario either. Localization of some sort of activity going on, yes. But firing on that activity may prove to be no more productive than firing on Megan Petersen and her toys. Besides, the theater of battle is always ever changing. :P

ThinksMarkedly wrote:If the LD is close to a set of targets not yet destroyed, then those targets are firing on the LD. And if they are close enough, they stand a good chance of actually hitting and compromising the stealth.


No, they are firing on some activity which they think is the LD, which, like Megan, may be nowhere around. But agreed, if it is actually the LD in the vicinity there may be a chance of a hit. If those missiles can only find a target after they get "in the vicinity."

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Worst case scenario is that the LD needs to engage active defences, which again localises the ship by, at worst, the explosions of the missiles. That means any trailing missiles that were launched by ships or pods further out should not have a problem picking up a very good signal of where to focus their fire.

Only if "active defenses" isn't a toy apart from the locality of the ship. Like a platform the LD has seeded. And if those trailing missiles are shooting at space dust, are they simply suppose to continue on into eternity searching for a target? Eventually they may find one wearing Manticoran clothing. At what point do you abort?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And even if there is a risk to the ships closer in, I would expect the missiles further out to be launched any way. And yes, the LD could decide to hide in the wreckage of those ships it's just destroyed. That's probably a war crime right there, but not one I'd expect the MAN to have any qualms about it. In that case, the ships controlling the incoming salvo will have to decide whether to abort or to proceed, even at the risk of killing fellow spacers. It might be a case of "needs of the many."

I don't think missiles further out should launch at all, unless you are absolutely sure you have found the enemy.

I do think that scenario is interesting. I suppose the LD could match velocities with debris. Although I am not too sure it would be a war crime any more than if a Mig 21 -- that is maneuvering to avoid missiles -- killed an American pilot who has ejected from his F-14. Not that the MA would care, "in for a penny in for a pound," but intentionality has to be proved to prosecute a war crime on someone you'll never take alive.

cthia wrote:It was meant as a discontinuation of the notion that the quite possibly desperate GA CO can simply aimlessly chuck missiles.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't think there is such a thing as aimlessly or random firing. And even if there were, that is not "firing towards your own forces" -- that has a very specific aim and not random.

You are aimlessly firing if you are not certain what you are shooting at. Even if you target the area of destruction of your own missiles, those further salvos may be wasted on a platform.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Space is just too big. Shooting blind without having a minimum of an idea of where the enemy is has absolutely zero chance of hitting something. You have to know something. In that case, it's not aimless nor random.

I agree. You have to know something. And the LD may intentionally give the GA that something in the form of a ruse. Petersen proved desperation will cause the enemy to shoot at the sound of a fart.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It might not be a very good targetting solution. But as you said, if they are getting hammered, better fire those missiles at ghosts and shadows than die with them unfired.

I agree and I am sure the LD concurs. Wasted missiles is a good thing. Of course, the GA may actually be shooting at Ghosts.

cthia wrote:True. And against any other foe I might not have considered it, but, any other foe does not have the resources of the MA. Like the level of infiltration (though dwindling) and the ruthless use of "biological warfare."
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Actually, many other foes did have very good resources. The Solarians may have been arrogant enough and not dedicated sufficient resource, but if they had really wanted, they had them. The PN and the IAN had definitely infiltrated the RMN. Just look at how many times Rabenstrage knew things when talking to Honor that were RMN and Manticoran secrets.

On the other hand, the MAlign infiltration has come to an end, thanks to six-limbed furry lie detectors. And the MAlign has no idea this is how. So they don't even have a counter for it. At best, they could deploy regular spies without compulsion, but the past 20 years of warfare have shown that those kinds of cyber intrusion just don't happen. I have no reason to believe that's about to change.

I am not sure the deepest infiltration has come to an end. The very deepest infiltration may not be suspected thus may not be questioned.

Which brings up a good point. Will every single person in the RMN and the Admiralty be questioned? Interesting.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:01 am

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cthia wrote:Only if "active defenses" isn't a toy apart from the locality of the ship. Like a platform the LD has seeded. And if those trailing missiles are shooting at space dust, are they simply suppose to continue on into eternity searching for a target? Eventually they may find one wearing Manticoran clothing. At what point do you abort?


When launched, unless reprogrammed, the missiles are told a volume of probability of finding a target. If they fly through that without finding a target, they will abort.

I don't think missiles further out should launch at all, unless you are absolutely sure you have found the enemy.


I disagree. The volume of the salvo is probably proportional to the likelihood in the minds of the people firing that the target is there. That means even an iffy signal may be worth a large-ish salvo, augmented by missiles from further out.

You are aimlessly firing if you are not certain what you are shooting at. Even if you target the area of destruction of your own missiles, those further salvos may be wasted on a platform.


If you don't know that it s an anti-missile platform, that's a good use of missiles. Even if you know it is, taking that off the board and causing the LD to expend resources is not a bad thing. Gogunov would eventually have found Megan if he had the resources to keep firing at her. Her decoys would eventually run out. Of course, an LD has much more massive resources than a destroyer.

And semantics: if you aim at somewhere, it's not aimless. Doesn't matter if you're wrong or the signal is weak or the search volume is huge: it's sill aimed.

I agree. You have to know something. And the LD may intentionally give the GA that something in the form of a ruse. Petersen proved desperation will cause the enemy to shoot at the sound of a fart.


See above.

Plus, the more the ruses are used, the more the defenders learn how to tell them apart from real signals. Decoys and ECM have a limited window of opportunity until the opponent clues in.

It may not be soon enough to save them.

I agree and I am sure the LD concurs. Wasted missiles is a good thing. Of course, the GA may actually be shooting at Ghosts.


:)

Do note that an MAN attack on a home or otherwise heavily defended system is not going to run out of missiles any time soon.

I am not sure the deepest infiltration has come to an end. The very deepest infiltration may not be suspected thus may not be questioned.

Which brings up a good point. Will every single person in the RMN and the Admiralty be questioned? Interesting.


I think we know from a conversation with Colin that the vast majority of infiltrations, especially the most effective ones, went dark or were caught. The knowledge about Mycroft was one of the last few and even then the information was wrong. I think it's a given that every flag officer and high government official will be questioned and be given a treecat body guard. It's those people below that will still be vulnerable, but they will also have to avoid being in a meeting with a treecat (or three) present in order to survive in the first place.

That means the quality of the information those lower-level infiltrators can find is much lower.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:12 pm

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from page 1 . . .


ThinksMarkedly wrote:We don't know what happens to vectors not leading to transit. My guess is that nothing happens.
cthia wrote:Of course I could be wrong, but I disagree with that. All positive vectors heading into the junction through the Origin will result in destruction if they are ships not properly configured, no? It should be the same for missiles. On the flip side, all negative vectors (ships or their missiles) should pass right thru the Origin, unaffected.*
Jonathan_S wrote:Even if the grav turbulence doesn't stretch back into your "negative vectors" it definitely beings at the "origin". So while we don't know if a missile can get close to the "origin" from the back it definitely can't can't pass through the origin because at the origin it would encounter the full effect of the grav turbulence and be torn apart.

It might be able to get close enough to fire off a laser head - but that's no different a threat that doing so from the sides of the cylindrical destructive grav zone.



You are probably correct about that, but I've been meaning to clarify the notion. It follows after the consequences of the Law of Universal Gravitation whereby the grav cone, thus eddies, will extend towards the positive vector, thus, a missile launched from the negative vectors will interface "with" the waves in the direction of travel, instead of against the waves like salmon swimming upstream. That may allow them to survive just for a bit. Long enough to destroy ships emerging in the outbound lane.

As I said, I'm simply clarifying the notion. It certainly isn't written in sand let alone stone.

*Pardon my arrogance. In retrospect, that should have read "might pass through the Origin unaffected."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:27 am

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cthia wrote:

You are probably correct about that, but I've been meaning to clarify the notion. It follows after the consequences of the Law of Universal Gravitation whereby the grav cone, thus eddies, will extend towards the positive vector, thus, a missile launched from the negative vectors will interface "with" the waves in the direction of travel, instead of against the waves like salmon swimming upstream. That may allow them to survive just for a bit. Long enough to destroy ships emerging in the outbound lane.

As I said, I'm simply clarifying the notion. It certainly isn't written in sand let alone stone.

*Pardon my arrogance. In retrospect, that should have read "might pass through the Origin unaffected."


It kind of is written in stone - David has said that any grav wave/wedge interference is instantly destructive for the wedge (and wedge creating ship/device). The least that will occur is sufficient feedback that will explosively destroy the drive nodes. However, Because of the energies involved, that is usually enough to vaporize the entire device (ship).

This is the same rule as in the wedge on wedge interference which is the basis of Honorverse countermissiles - except the "counter missile" has quadrillions of times more power.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:25 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:

You are probably correct about that, but I've been meaning to clarify the notion. It follows after the consequences of the Law of Universal Gravitation whereby the grav cone, thus eddies, will extend towards the positive vector, thus, a missile launched from the negative vectors will interface "with" the waves in the direction of travel, instead of against the waves like salmon swimming upstream. That may allow them to survive just for a bit. Long enough to destroy ships emerging in the outbound lane.

As I said, I'm simply clarifying the notion. It certainly isn't written in sand let alone stone.

*Pardon my arrogance. In retrospect, that should have read "might pass through the Origin unaffected."


It kind of is written in stone - David has said that any grav wave/wedge interference is instantly destructive for the wedge (and wedge creating ship/device). The least that will occur is sufficient feedback that will explosively destroy the drive nodes. However, Because of the energies involved, that is usually enough to vaporize the entire device (ship).

This is the same rule as in the wedge on wedge interference which is the basis of Honorverse countermissiles - except the "counter missile" has quadrillions of times more power.

Thanks. Which means it is also written in stone that any junction will simply eat all missiles fired into it.

Perhaps the Spider can create the same kind of interference about the ship that will also destroy all missiles. Thus, a shield of focused gravity.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:30 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:

It kind of is written in stone - David has said that any grav wave/wedge interference is instantly destructive for the wedge (and wedge creating ship/device). The least that will occur is sufficient feedback that will explosively destroy the drive nodes. However, Because of the energies involved, that is usually enough to vaporize the entire device (ship).

This is the same rule as in the wedge on wedge interference which is the basis of Honorverse countermissiles - except the "counter missile" has quadrillions of times more power.

Thanks. Which means it is also written in stone that any junction will simply eat all missiles fired into it.

Perhaps the Spider can create the same kind of interference about the ship that will also destroy all missiles. Thus, a shield of focused gravity.


Aka a bubble sidewall. Already mentioned. However it cannot run simultaneously with the Spider, and is blazingly visible in everyone's grav sensors.

Edit: Rereading your post, you meant protection specifically created via the spider. The spider is hundreds of thousands of specially modified short ranged tractors - short like as in measured in meters. Laserheads explode and turn into lasers 20-60 THOUSAND KM out from the target, so there is no way a Spider is going to interfere with a Laserhead missile wedge.
Besides, the amount of gravitational energy produced by an active spider drive is barely noticable, where a sidewall is visible for millions of KM. Any defense it may provide would be negligible against a weapon designed to bore through Capital Sidewalls and still create significant damage.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:07 pm

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If you or your companions are taking fire and have ANY idea where it is coming from, pumping a few missiles in that direction (in an area pattern) is a really good idea.
1st you may hit what is causing you the problem....and then you can use that information to tighten up your targeting.
2nd, if the launcher is where you suspect it may be (and isn't a bunch of pods rather than a ship) it may not have a choice about staying stealthy and pray that one of the salvo does't impact on a wedge/spider field, or just "see" something on it's active sensors and snap a shot at the only potential target it finds. Getting an RMN laser head to fire at you is almost guaranteed to attract attention from it's launcher or another ship and where a laser head fires, there is probably going to something you want to investigate....even if it is exploration by fire.
3rd, you might even be able to try and run from the unseen attacker and still have someone in your group both get a volley in on target and or pickup enough new data to be useful. The thing about shooting at a group of things flushing away from a problem like a flock of quail is that any that get hit--and when in the sequence any of the get hit or have weapons go off near them- is going to give others a probable tactical read on where that fire is coming from. So run if you must but taking shots to make life at least exciting for the other side is a good choice.
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