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Wormhole Assault: MA Style

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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:16 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:See above on the improbability of a massive ship-mounted graser that does not compromise the stealth.

This tactic you're talking about here has a completely different geometry than what we've discussed for the past 30 pages. Instead of sneaking inside the concentric shells and closer to the Junctions, you're suggesting that the LDs attack from outside. This has the advantage that they may be able to do that from outside the hyperlimit too, thus hyper out (though such a ship would take 5 minutes to do so, with mightily detectable emissions in that period).

But if it is in range of 4 forts from outside their range, that also means it's also not in range of any other forts. So to take down 48 forts, you need 12 platforms. I would do this with torpedoes. If you insist on using LDs for this, we're talking about bringing a squadron and a half of LDs into the single most trafficked volume of known space, and each ship increases the chance of accidental detection.

Also, even if the Malign can make such a super-graser (and there's little to hint that they could) and they did engage the forts with broadside energy weapons from beyond the forts' own energy weapons range; they'd way, way inside range of the fort's MDM pods.

Double or triple the range of a normal graser against a sidewall means the LDs would be using them from 1 to 1.5 million km. (And don't forget that at up to a million km a ship/fort/LD is vulnerable to return graser fire unless protecte by its own sidewall. So if these imagined super-grasers 'only' have double the range against sidewalls then the LD would need to pop up its own sidewall when it engaged. But that'd leave it unable to use it's spider drive)


But let's grant Cthia his wilder fantasies and give them a super-graser with a 1.5 million km effective range against a sidewall protected opponent. The forts won't be able to fire back with their own grasers. But an RMN missile can zip across that range and engage with its laser heads in just under a minute [57 seconds] (so it doesn't really mater what missile they're launching; as that's less than the full power endurance of a single drive). The forts that weren't wiped out in the first shots may (or may not) still be combat effective when their missiles arrive. But given the number of pods that's be scattered around the Junction any LD that engaged from that close isn't going to survive.

Actually if the LD didn't pop sidewalls than (at that range) it'd have bigger worries than the anti-ship missiles. A Mk31 CM's wedge contacting it would be instantly fatal to any ship not protected by sidewalls. Forts carry those CM in stupefying numbers, and they'd be able to reach the LD (at 1.5 million km) about 10 seconds sooner than the ship killers.

Forts likely also carry some Vipers for anti-LAC defense, the warheads on those are weak to be attacking something as big as an LD - but they'll reach laserhead range about half a second before a Mk31's wedge could make contact. In sufficient numbers even the weak lasers on Vipers would seriously degrade the LD's active defenses, sensors, and drive (all items exposed on or projection from it's hull, and thus not protectable by armor)




The damned LD is a super stealthy sniper. Yes a sniper is stealthy; but that doesn't mean it isn't a gross misuse of them and their talents to order them to sneak into knife range of a group of armed opponents before attacking. At that range, even with total surprise, they're still likely to die in a hail of close range fire. Putting them in close makes if far harder for them to hide and is throwing away their key advantage.
Could they do it? Possibly. Should they? No!
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:46 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Actually if the LD didn't pop sidewalls than (at that range) it'd have bigger worries than the anti-ship missiles. A Mk31 CM's wedge contacting it would be instantly fatal to any ship not protected by sidewalls. Forts carry those CM in stupefying numbers, and they'd be able to reach the LD (at 1.5 million km) about 10 seconds sooner than the ship killers.

Forts likely also carry some Vipers for anti-LAC defense, the warheads on those are weak to be attacking something as big as an LD - but they'll reach laserhead range about half a second before a Mk31's wedge could make contact. In sufficient numbers even the weak lasers on Vipers would seriously degrade the LD's active defenses, sensors, and drive (all items exposed on or projection from it's hull, and thus not protectable by armor)


I'm not sure CMs can endure all the way to 1.5 million km. Maybe they can, but no one uses them that way because it's way too far out for what they're designed to do: counter missiles.

Vipers may make sense. In any case, you don't need any fort surviving for a counter-launch of missiles. There are hundreds of LACs in the Junction and at least a couple dozen warships ranging from destroyers to cruisers, maybe some BCs too.

But I'll also grant that the LDs must have CMs and PDLCs. So they're not going to get killed by lone missiles doing Barricade on them. Given their enormous surface area, they'll have very good defences too. So let's say it takes double the number of pre-Apollo missiles it takes to kill a Sovereign of Space RHN SD(P): about 800. For 12 LDs that show up, it would be merely 9600 missiles fired. That's less than Terekhov's Exclamation Point and he used Apollo for those.

Remember I said that hypering a ship as massive as we expect LDs to be to take about 5 minutes. Honor caught Chin with that problem from 45x further away, albeit having Keyhole II.

The damned LD is a super stealthy sniper. Yes a sniper is stealthy; but that doesn't mean it isn't a gross misuse of them and their talents to order them to sneak into knife range of a group of armed opponents before attacking. At that range, even with total surprise, they're still likely to die in a hail of close range fire. Putting them in close makes if far harder for them to hide and is throwing away their key advantage.
Could they do it? Possibly. Should they? No!


Right, only if the pay off is heavily lopsided in their favour.

I proposed a 20:1 ratio in mass. Let's each 12-million tonne LD manages to destroy or sufficiently wreck all 4 of its targets. For that exchange to be worth it, each fort must mass 20 / 4 = 5x the mass of the LD, or 60 million tonnes. I don't think they're that big.

Or there needs to be sufficient economical, commercial, and/or political fall out from such an action. Destroying the forts would cause a massive loss of face to Manticore and diversion of RMN resources from other purposes. But again, I don't see this as a worthwhile exchange.

So back to the first page: what can this accomplish? How could this action support a MAlign victory in the very short term?
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:54 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:See above on the improbability of a massive ship-mounted graser that does not compromise the stealth.

This tactic you're talking about here has a completely different geometry than what we've discussed for the past 30 pages. Instead of sneaking inside the concentric shells and closer to the Junctions, you're suggesting that the LDs attack from outside. This has the advantage that they may be able to do that from outside the hyperlimit too, thus hyper out (though such a ship would take 5 minutes to do so, with mightily detectable emissions in that period).

But if it is in range of 4 forts from outside their range, that also means it's also not in range of any other forts. So to take down 48 forts, you need 12 platforms. I would do this with torpedoes. If you insist on using LDs for this, we're talking about bringing a squadron and a half of LDs into the single most trafficked volume of known space, and each ship increases the chance of accidental detection.

Also, even if the Malign can make such a super-graser (and there's little to hint that they could) and they did engage the forts with broadside energy weapons from beyond the forts' own energy weapons range; they'd way, way inside range of the fort's MDM pods.

Double or triple the range of a normal graser against a sidewall means the LDs would be using them from 1 to 1.5 million km. (And don't forget that at up to a million km a ship/fort/LD is vulnerable to return graser fire unless protecte by its own sidewall. So if these imagined super-grasers 'only' have double the range against sidewalls then the LD would need to pop up its own sidewall when it engaged. But that'd leave it unable to use it's spider drive)


But let's grant Cithia his wilder fantasies and give them a super-graser with a 1.5 million km effective range against a sidewall protected opponent. The forts won't be able to fire back with their own grasers. But an RMN missile can zip across that range and engage with its laser heads in just under a minute [57 seconds] (so it doesn't really mater what missile they're launching; as that's less than the full power endurance of a single drive). The forts that weren't wiped out in the first shots may (or may not) still be combat effective when their missiles arrive. But given the number of pods that's be scattered around the Junction any LD that engaged from that close isn't going to survive.

Actually if the LD didn't pop sidewalls than (at that range) it'd have bigger worries than the anti-ship missiles. A Mk31 CM's wedge contacting it would be instantly fatal to any ship not protected by sidewalls. Forts carry those CM in stupefying numbers, and they'd be able to reach the LD (at 1.5 million km) about 10 seconds sooner than the ship killers.

Forts likely also carry some Vipers for anti-LAC defense, the warheads on those are weak to be attacking something as big as an LD - but they'll reach laserhead range about half a second before a Mk31's wedge could make contact. In sufficient numbers even the weak lasers on Vipers would seriously degrade the LD's active defenses, sensors, and drive (all items exposed on or projection from it's hull, and thus not protectable by armor)




The damned LD is a super stealthy sniper. Yes a sniper is stealthy; but that doesn't mean it isn't a gross misuse of them and their talents to order them to sneak into knife range of a group of armed opponents before attacking. At that range, even with total surprise, they're still likely to die in a hail of close range fire. Putting them in close makes if far harder for them to hide and is throwing away their key advantage.
Could they do it? Possibly. Should they? No!

You are right ThinksMarkedly, but there is a reason the geometry of this tactic is completely different. This thread is about a possible wormhole assault. MA style. And I am drawing on everything we have discussed thus far. Especially in the "?" thread.

I suppose everyone, including myself, agree with munroburton. It is incredibly dangerous to attack the forts but so easy to stay away from them :lol: ...

munroburton wrote:It is a bit strange how little they're featured in the Honorverse for all that bulk, but that's probably because they're simultaneously so incredibly dangerous to attack and so easy to stay away from.

But the MA don't do what is expected of any other "mere navy." I posited mine sweeping weapons quite some time ago. Missile pods are simply mines until they're launched. A mass of gtorps may be able to severely cut into those millions of pods. Long range LDs that everyone is suggesting will certainly be in on it too, possibly launching on everything. I also posited a Spider-driven Collier. Can you imagine an unorthodox Spider-driven Charles Ward? At any rate, an LD that has maneuvered inside the shell of forts may attack after the defenses have been softened. Also, why can't the LDs launch stealthy high-powered extended firing graser platforms? If they can break the reactor secret. That way, massive missile launches will target and waste themselves against platforms whose deed will already be done before the missiles arrive.

BTW, whenever I think of the RMN Katana?, with the high-powered graser, why can't the MA bring a Collier or freighter full of Sharks, a Sharkcarrier, loaded with how ever many gtorps, but armed with a version of these immensely powerful long-firing grasers. Invisible, immensely powerful LAC-like ships littering the system even at their snail's pace would spell trouble.

A Plea.
Can we please spell cthia without the extra letters? So many people do it. Even the author once. It isn't cithia or chia. One reason I chose it is because of its brevity. Only 5 letters. I take time to spell some impossibly long names.

It is cthia. c-t-h-i-a. It isn't a name, but a notion.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:19 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:
With twenty-eight Shark-class training ships having been successful, a far bigger number of Leonard Detweiler-class units were planned to be built.


My idea of a bigger number is fifty or more. My idea of a far bigger number eclipses one hundred. Your inexact mileage may vary.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Fair enough, but what's the timeline to build all that? A 12-million tonne ship will take 3 to 4 years to build, once you get into stride. The first of her class will probably take close to 5. How many can they build in parallel? If we can they can build 30 at a time for 3 years in each batch on average, it'll take 12 years to get to 100, starting from 1923. And I'm being very generous here for an entity with no track record of building large capital ships (much less 50% bigger than anyone builds). There are all sorts of snags that can hit a production line.

They may not have that long.
cthia wrote:And, the author teased me that they were ready. At least that is what I took away from it.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:They can't be. They weren't ready for the launch of Oyster Bay in late 1921, so even if the prototype was already being built, it won't be ready until 1925. Add 9 years from that to get to 100.


Now that I think about it, why would the MA have such a difficult time building only one class of ship? There are no heavy cruisers, light cruisers, SDs, etc. Only LDs. A one size fits all warship.

.
Last edited by cthia on Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:20 pm

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cthia wrote:1. Graser mains might actually be quickly recharged after a single shot.

But if they are recharged after each shot, then they are totally reliant upon being recharged after each shot. Which means they are totally useless while sitting in orbit. So, when the LD announces itself in orbit, GA ships are going to be caught with cold impellers and cold mains. And the wedge needs everything ALL of the reactors can produce. Which begs the question of whether charging the wedge can be paused and resumed where it left off. If not, all is lost in orbit. You may argue that that would be a moot point anyway. But it doesn't have to be if mains didn't totally discharge after a single shot.


Correct. If the grasers aren't powered up when an enemy announces itself, they need to be charged. Given that they can be fired every 2 seconds, the charging time from zero must be less than 2 seconds. If 2 seconds is the sustainable rate of fire, I posit that the largest time factor is not the charging rate, but heat dissipation. Either way, it's 2 seconds or less.

This is supported by Honor's musings on the forts, from the textev above: defensive weapons on the forts were kept charged and on automatic computer control at all times, but offensive ones weren't.

We know from A Call to Duty that an interrupted wedge bring-up causes it to crash all the way back to start. Technology has progressed to the point it takes much less than the 45 minutes that we observed during that time, but we haven't heard anything contradicting the need to start from scratch.

But I dispute "cold impellers and cold mains". That's not an active warship, that's a mothball or, at best, a ship under maintenance with a skeleton crew. The only time we've ever heard of an active warship shutting down its impellers was the trio of Roland-class DDs under Commodore Ray Chatterjee during the New Tuscany Incident. They only did that because Byng it was a condition to entering orbit of a non-aligned system at the same time Byng was there. In normal circumstances, a ship may not have an active wedge (and won't in close proximity to inhabited planets and stations), but its impellers will be hot. How long it takes to form a wedge from there is unknown.

We also don't know if it takes all the reactors' output to bring up the wedge, from either state. Given that N-1 reactors are sufficient for "full combat load," I suspect that bringing the wedge up with hot impellers takes nowhere near the full output of those reactors.

At any rate, if you are correct, it plays into the notion of much more powerful grasers mounted on an LD quite well. If an LD has 6-7 reactors, and if I'm right that it only needs a single reactor, then 5-6 reactors are available to feed enormous power into hellfire energy weapons. Which brings me to ...


I cannot agree yet that a single reactor is sufficient to power all the spider tractors, all the computer systems, environmental, active stealth, etc..

But I will agree that the more volume you have, the more reactors you can mount and therefore the more energy they can produce to feed energy guzzlers like grasers. So I will agree that the LD can have sufficient power production capability to power as many grasers as it can mount.

This is one area I can envision where the GA's smaller reactors would be a boon to MA stealth. Smaller reactors allow them to be installed much closer to whatever they feed, which allows for shorter power cables between the reactors and main capacitors (MAINS). Shorter cables would eliminate a lot of the leakage from heat, as power cables are usually one of the biggest culprits. They also account for less efficiency. So you'd have to consider that the MA has somehow managed to achieve their undecedented stealth without the smaller powerplants.


All that you said above is quite logical: shorter power conductors means less dissipation due to Ohm's Law (even superconductors dissipate, albeit very little); smaller with smaller volume may be more efficient. But we simply don't know whether it's the case. For all we know, the smaller reactor is less efficient in converting fuel into usable electrical energy, it just happens to be overall useful because it frees volume for other things.

The volume is another aspect that helps in redundancy: it's far easier to mount a 13th reactor of size X than to mount a 4th reactor of size 3X.

Munroburton has also brought up another significant point in that safety decreases with additional reactors. But I posited a looooong time ago that the MA would undoubtedly be willing to take far greater risks in ship design than their GA counterparts. Sacrificing pawns is for the Honor of the King. 'OUCH'


Indeed and if they are, then mounting 3 big and efficient reactors with no redundancy is better than 12 smaller ones with the 13th for redundancy.

Though I'm not convinced the MAN is as reckless as you may them to be (which is what this whole thread is about). A 12-million-tonne ship is a huge investment and they don't grow in trees, even if you control the entire Darius planetary system and don't have an economy to speak of. It's an investment of raw material, of time, and especially of trained personnel, which we do know takes time, even with Manpower-provided rapid learning. Each of those ships is going to have 8,000 people inside, who are not slaves and are instead members of the Darius society and have family there.

I'm all for breaking some eggs to make an omelet. And I do get that the Inner Onion has very little regard for life that is not their own, so I can readily see them cutting some corners. But I have yet to see the pay off for any of the strategies you keep outlining.

Also, do recall that I posit quick-start reactors, which would minimize the time an LD has to generate so much excess heat.


You can't give the MAN that without allowing the RMN the same.


My point is that the MA has already achieved a game changing 3-second firing gtorp, which implies that centuries of research may have gone into the attempt. Certainly they have learned something from the endeavor. Moreover, we cannot assume that the 3-second firing gtorps aren't a byproduct of longer firing shipboard grasers. It could turn out to be a simple... which came first, the chicken or the egg.


It's possible that a 3-second firing gtorp is a result of figuring out how to fire a ship-mounted graser for 0.5 seconds, indeed.

Additionally, we cannot dismiss the possibility that the gtorps slag after firing is an intentional design element to preserve certain secrets.


No, we can actually assume that it is intentional. All missiles self-immolate when firing. They did slag themselves to prevent recovery of any parts of the spider drive. The fact that they were going to do so is an aspect that allowed them to fire for 3 seconds.

If you're trying to suggest that the slagging was not caused by the 3-second graser, we'll need some extraordinary proof. I can't quote the text right now, but I'm pretty sure it hinted the exact opposite.

I totally agree. It is the human element. Hour after hour, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year nothing happens.


That's why the defensive systems were on automatic.

Launching LACs to intercept wreckage was not pre-programmed.

In close encounters just like a Spider, I wonder if the LD's angle of attack matters. She may be more stealthy approaching prey from certain vectors, inasmuch as her disturbances (ripples in gravity) may be more detectable in the same plane with her on long range insertions.


That depends. If the LD is firing graser torps, the angle does not matter, so it'll present the angle least likely to lead to detection, by any force in possible detection range.

If it's firing grasers, then it's broadside to the opponent. Even if that compromised stealth before the first graser was fired.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:26 pm

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cthia wrote:Now that I think about it, why would the MA have such a difficult time building only one class of ship? There are no heavy cruisers, light cruisers, SDs, etc. Only LDs. A one size fits all warship.


That's a logical fallacy. Also the Mythical Man Month.

Exemplified by this: if one pizza maker takes 1 hour to bake a pizza, how long does it take 6 pizza makers to make 6 pizzas?

Also the expression, "too many cooks spoil the broth."

I can see a handful of LDs in the next 5 years. I cannot see 100 of them in less than 15. And I repeat the MAlign may not have that long -- an opinion we'll need to revisit in October this year.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:38 pm

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On one size fits all: do you know any navy that has a single type of ship? I'm not constraining to single class, but to single type.

That doesn't exist. One size does not fit all. Different ship types will have different roles; some will be defenders, some will be scouts, some will be sluggers, and this is just the fighting platforms.

Which actually makes me think that the MAN does have more ship types, but RFC hasn't seen fit to tell us about them yet. It's entirely possible that it is not a well-rounded fighting navy, with glaring holes in the ability of one ship type to support another, because after all the MAN has no experience and it's being led by maniacs inside an echo chamber. Even the totally corrupt SLN wasn't in that bad a condition.

To make matters worse, there's the problem of using spiders: we know that they have more acceleration the more surface area they have. So the bigger ships have more acceleration. That means we'd see cruiser-type ships accelerating at 100 gravities and destroyer-type ones pulling no more than 75. I have no idea how such a thing is practical. So those ships may actually be conventially-driven by impellers.

But even in those circumstances, I don't see any admiral worth his/her salt not saying they need more ships and vehemently arguing for different ship types with the Inner Onion. The Detweilers are logical and rational enough to see reason when it hits them in the head.

So... predictions:

1) the MAN will have more ship types than just the monitors

2) the MAN will not fight very well; those ship types will not be designed to support each other and this will become a major weakness when the feces hit the rotating blades

3) we will not see such ships in this year's book.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:44 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'm all for breaking some eggs to make an omelet. And I do get that the Inner Onion has very little regard for life that is not their own, so I can readily see them cutting some corners. But I have yet to see the pay off for any of the strategies you keep outlining.

It is accepted in this thread that the initial tactic of using a nest could get half of Eight Fleet. That is half of the most powerful fleet in the galaxy.

Or, the tactic can be reserved for firing on the Salamander exclusively.

Now, you may think that half of Eighth Fleet at the possible cost of a single LD isn't worth it, but the MA might disagree. One thing is for certain, the MA and the Peeps probably invested a whole lot more trying to take out Sally, so they may not agree.

Also, the original tactic will work without fail on other junctions/termini. Without loss of a single LD. Not worth it? I totally disagree.

cthia wrote:Also, do recall that I posit quick-start reactors, which would minimize the time an LD has to generate so much excess heat.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:You can't give the MAN that without allowing the RMN the same.

Why? Only Grayson had fission reactors. The MA can't have breakthroughs? They are Alphas.

.
Last edited by cthia on Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:50 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Now that I think about it, why would the MA have such a difficult time building only one class of ship? There are no heavy cruisers, light cruisers, SDs, etc. Only LDs. A one size fits all warship.


That's a logical fallacy. Also the Mythical Man Month.

Exemplified by this: if one pizza maker takes 1 hour to bake a pizza, how long does it take 6 pizza makers to make 6 pizzas?

Also the expression, "too many cooks spoil the broth."

I can see a handful of LDs in the next 5 years. I cannot see 100 of them in less than 15. And I repeat the MAlign may not have that long -- an opinion we'll need to revisit in October this year.

You must not be a cook at all. After the initial prep is done, each successive pizza goes very quickly. With 6 people tossing dough and forming an assembly line, 6 pizzas can be baked simultaneously.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ZVar   » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:51 pm

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cthia wrote:It is accepted in this thread that the initial tactic of using a nest could get half of Eight Fleet. That is half of the most powerful fleet in the galaxy.


You are the only one in this thread that accepts there can even be a nest, much less it could take out half of Eight Fleet.
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