Wormhole Assault: MA Style

cthia wrote:I'm talking about a coordinated attack with all of those BCs they've got, when there is no need for the BCs to be stealthy. They would purposely come over the hyper wall flashing bright neon signs which say "look at me." The suppressing active scans would be laid down by the conventional ships to assist the LD in its maneuvers to establish nests in intimate places. It would be made to look like a sweep by the BCs for stealthy Manty ships. That wave of BCs doesn't even have to be the main prong of attack. That will come after the LDs have set up nests all over the system. The LDs will not tip their hand during the first operation. Heck, the RMN won't even know nor suspect that these ships are MA related, thus will see no need to scan the system. They will be completely oblivious to the fact that they've been infiltrated.

You're probably right about killing the Forts in that manner because I was thinking too small. Which is totally unlike the MA. The nanites should be used in conjunction with  embedded software to compel the Forts to fire on each other. It's a little rough around the edges but you get the message.

How close do the BC's need to be in order to pump out enough EM to dazzle and distract the defenders and their sensors?

Based on the infodump about hyper generator states we've got to assume it's going to take at least 10 minutes after dropping out of hyper before a BC can hyper back out again (and it might be as much as 45 minutes (It depends on how discharged a hyper generator gets when used; which we're not told).  At only 10 minutes before they can escape they'd have to be over 75 million km away from the nearest fort or system defense missile pod to be able to escape before Apollo wiped them from the heavens...
(And if it's 45 minutes then, god help them, they've got to emerge almost 30 light minutes away, nearly half a billion km, from any defense) [And that's assuming 3 drive Apollo missiles. If Manticore has their 4 drive system defense missiles deployed then those minimal safe ranges go up]

From that closer distance they might distract the sensor operators, simple because people focus on the new surprising thing.  But even "hull mapping" levels of radar will fade/spread to fairly insignificant levels by the time the pulses reach across 75 million any defender.  (much less 475 million!)

And remember how badly even a skilled military navigator can miss their emergence point; a Peep fleet missed by about 24 million km when they tried to mousetrap the Basilisk terminus! If you're trying to hit a sweet spot of landing close enough to distract the defenders but not so close the angry fist of Manticores fixed system defense smite you down before you can scamper away that ups that kind of imprecision ups to pucker factor significantly.

An aside.

Harahap created a lot of false flag operations. According to my informant Wik I. Pedia ...

False flags were later used to describe a ruse in naval warfare whereby a vessel flew the flag of a neutral or enemy country in order to hide its true identity. The tactic was originally used by pirates and privateers to deceive other ships into allowing them to move closer before attacking them. It later was deemed an acceptable practice during naval warfare according to international maritime laws, provided the attacking vessel displayed its true flag once an attack had begun.

I don't recall this tactic ever being used as far as warships. But I do recall many times a system was waiting with baited breath for the activation of transponders from the latest visitors coming across the hyper wall. What other measures follow? The ruse would probably have a low chance of working in a larger system in time of war. But in peacetime, and especially in smaller systems, it should allow an enemy to get close, if other measures are not taken.

cthia wrote:An aside.

Harahap created a lot of false flag operations. According to my informant Wik I. Pedia ...

False flags were later used to describe a ruse in naval warfare whereby a vessel flew the flag of a neutral or enemy country in order to hide its true identity. The tactic was originally used by pirates and privateers to deceive other ships into allowing them to move closer before attacking them. It later was deemed an acceptable practice during naval warfare according to international maritime laws, provided the attacking vessel displayed its true flag once an attack had begun.

I don't recall this tactic ever being used as far as warships. But I do recall many times a system was waiting with baited breath for the activation of transponders from the latest visitors coming across the hyper wall. What other measures follow? The ruse would probably have a low chance of working in a larger system in time of war. But in peacetime, and especially in smaller systems, it should allow an enemy to get close, if other measures are not taken.

Offhand the closest I recall is Honor's Q-ships being given a selection of false transponder codes to allow them to appear to be peaceful freighters from a variety of different nations.

Honor Among Enemies wrote:"Finally, My Lady, as regards your own squadron's operations. Am I correct in assuming you've been provided with a wide selection of transponder codes?"
"I have, My Lord," Honor said a bit cautiously. Resetting the transponder beacon of a starship was the equivalent of the old wet-navy trick of flying false colors. It was acknowledged as a legitimate ruse de guerre by most star nations and sanctioned by half a dozen interstellar accords, but the Andermani Empire had never formally accepted it. For the record, the Empire considered the use of its own ID codes an unfriendly and illegal act . . . which hadn't prevented ONI from providing her with several complete sets of them.

In fact, when Wayfarer died protecting the liner Artemis she had been flying the colors of an Andermani freighter (though she'd have switch back to her RMN colors just before entering combat)

1) After Oyster Bay (both Manticore and Grayson) the two victims of the attacks and their close allies are sure there is somebody "out there" with a drive at least something that let them get though the respective system's sensor nets.

2) I find it difficult to believe that AT LEAST the Manticore Junction and probably each of the wormhole termini have had a similar and close to as sensitive sensor network for both detection of threats and traffic control. The Traffic Control part might even be "active" all the time. Remember that most of what is describe as the Manticore Binary System sensor net is/was looking for hyperspace footprints and active impeller drives.

3) After the Silver Bullet episode in the SLN attack on Beowulf, it was clear that "someone" got at least one functioning grazer and related equipment into the system close enough to target the control node of the Moriarty system.

My conclusion: The GA and it's various "non-allied" but friendly forces (Torch, Erwhon, the Andermani Empire etc) will be doing a lot more to try and keep an eye on the inside of their various detection perimeters which would have to mean all sorts of optical and other detection devices.

Clearly the Alighment figured out that they could look for the Morarty controller by tracking the gravitational fluctuations that are the basis of the FTL communication system. Other than the Andies, nobody else-yet- has figured out how to capitalize on detecting what they can of the Manticore FTL but that will change. How quickly is a question. Another question is how close an FTL source at "low power"- like a Ghost Rider Drone- has to be to a potential gav-pulse detector before it will show up on somebody's scans? Just how possible is it to make RMN's FTL a directional vs omnidirectional signal?

Has it occurred to anyone else that if you flood your home system with something really stealth like a simplified Ghost Rider as a passive detection system, you just might be able to configure said specialized drone as a homing device and do to "something that appears to be seeking around in our system" what the Ghost Rider drones did to the TUFT freighters at Hypatica....run in on them (last part ballistic) and then light off their impeller drives at a distance that will massively damage if not destroy the target?

You might not get anything to examine but burning a Ghost Rider to kill a Spider Drive ship inside your standard defence perimeter seems like a good trade to me. Besides, the drone would have had to report home before getting instructions to Kamakazi the target and that would include a data dump which would/should provide information about where to look at other sensor data about what was there.

cthia wrote:An aside.

Harahap created a lot of false flag operations. According to my informant Wik I. Pedia ...

False flags were later used to describe a ruse in naval warfare whereby a vessel flew the flag of a neutral or enemy country in order to hide its true identity. The tactic was originally used by pirates and privateers to deceive other ships into allowing them to move closer before attacking them. It later was deemed an acceptable practice during naval warfare according to international maritime laws, provided the attacking vessel displayed its true flag once an attack had begun.

I don't recall this tactic ever being used as far as warships. But I do recall many times a system was waiting with baited breath for the activation of transponders from the latest visitors coming across the hyper wall. What other measures follow? The ruse would probably have a low chance of working in a larger system in time of war. But in peacetime, and especially in smaller systems, it should allow an enemy to get close, if other measures are not taken.

Jonathan_S wrote:Offhand the closest I recall is Honor's Q-ships being given a selection of false transponder codes to allow them to appear to be peaceful freighters from a variety of different nations.

Honor Among Enemies wrote:"Finally, My Lady, as regards your own squadron's operations. Am I correct in assuming you've been provided with a wide selection of transponder codes?"
"I have, My Lord," Honor said a bit cautiously. Resetting the transponder beacon of a starship was the equivalent of the old wet-navy trick of flying false colors. It was acknowledged as a legitimate ruse de guerre by most star nations and sanctioned by half a dozen interstellar accords, but the Andermani Empire had never formally accepted it. For the record, the Empire considered the use of its own ID codes an unfriendly and illegal act . . . which hadn't prevented ONI from providing her with several complete sets of them.

In fact, when Wayfarer died protecting the liner Artemis she had been flying the colors of an Andermani freighter (though she'd have switch back to her RMN colors just before entering combat)

Now that you mention it, I do recall. It isn't that I forgot about the Q-ships, but I forgot they used false transponders to make impersonating a freighter believable.

At any rate, when Honor brought the dead back from Hell, she didn't take any chances that the big bad Salamander herself wouldn't get blown into pieces too small to simply make a nice handbag. And wouldn't it have been ironic if the RMN killed Honor?

At any rate, Honor probably told the astrogator "Now remember, we may not survive a translation too close. And for Tester's temperament make sure communications are functioning! I wanna be on live mike immediately. Because even Tester can't help us if we translate right into the range of a trigger happy imbecile."*

But in peace, it has to be rather easy to pull it off in the MBS. There must be countless ships entering the system. Are they all queried or stopped after the right transponder is broadcast?

As a matter of fact, I always expected some navy to use captured ships to help pull off this ruse. And possibly even use some doctored footage to help play along.


# I got the feeling that showing up unannounced during a high state of war or simply during war, could be hazardous to your health. I even recall Eloise Pritchard being concerned about her diplomacy never getting a chance to get off the ground. Pardon the pun. I can imagine lots of ...

"Are we expecting company today? Noooooo???"

cthia wrote:I don't recall this tactic ever being used as far as warships. But I do recall many times a system was waiting with baited breath for the activation of transponders from the latest visitors coming across the hyper wall. What other measures follow? The ruse would probably have a low chance of working in a larger system in time of war. But in peacetime, and especially in smaller systems, it should allow an enemy to get close, if other measures are not taken.

There was the case of the HMS Ellipsis that the enigmatic Charles knew some things about. The Peeps had captured a Star Knight CA mostly intact (HMS Ellipsis) and the ship hadn't been declared overdue yet. So they were using it in a false flag operation to make the Andermani believe the Manties were "bad guys."

The false flag happened because a Star Knight was pretty distinctive, at this time exclusive to the Manticoran Alliance. The IAN would know that and would have good sensor profiles. So this worked only because the Peeps had an actual Star Knight to use. Moreover, because the Andies at this time were neutral, they wouldn't have detailed IFF on MA ships. So this worked only because it was in a backwater, neutral system.

This type of false flag could never happen in a major MA system. The IFF is probably an encrypted exchange that rotates every so often, so it can't be duplicated and will raise eyebrows if it's too old. Moreover, in a central system, the IFF would be followed by more message exchanges, including mail. Keeping up the ruse for long would be difficult.

cthia wrote:But in peace, it has to be rather easy to pull it off in the MBS. There must be countless ships entering the system. Are they all queried or stopped after the right transponder is broadcast?

I expect they are all queried, as a matter of fact. If they come to the Junction, traffic control needs to know where to route them and how to charge them. If you come into the hyperlimit, then you probably have to state your business.

Note that we're talking more about territorial waters here than high seas. No foreign warship is allowed into the hyperlimit unless the host polity explicitly allows it -- there's no freedom of navigation there for foreign warships. So if it's a non-allied warship, it's going to be stopped, queried and probably escorted in if it has legitimate business. If it's an allied warship, then all the cryptographic exchanges are required and the host knows which vessels are supposed to be where.

As a matter of fact, I always expected some navy to use captured ships to help pull off this ruse. And possibly even use some doctored footage to help play along.

So a Mannerheim ship could have showed up in Manticore by claiming to be from the Judean League. What does it accomplish doing that?

cthia wrote:At any rate, when Honor brought the dead back from Hell, she didn't take any chances that the big bad Salamander herself wouldn't get blown into pieces too small to simply make a nice handbag. And wouldn't it have been ironic if the RMN killed Honor?

Hmm. Now that we're speaking of transponders I wonder what (if anything) she had her captures Peep ships identifying themselves as.

They called themselves the Elysian Space Navy, but I'm not sure if they made up corresponding transponder codes.

In any case she brought them into Trevor's Star far enough out (and close enough to an FTL relay) that she was able to send her message and preempt any thoughts of closing and firing on this handful of clearly Peep designs of warships.

Brigade XO wrote:Clearly the Alighment figured out that they could look for the Morarty controller by tracking the gravitational fluctuations that are the basis of the FTL communication system. Other than the Andies, nobody else-yet- has figured out how to capitalize on detecting what they can of the Manticore FTL but that will change. How quickly is a question. Another question is how close an FTL source at "low power"- like a Ghost Rider Drone- has to be to a potential gav-pulse detector before it will show up on somebody's scans? Just how possible is it to make RMN's FTL a directional vs omnidirectional signal?

(Mycoft is the GA's FTL verison; Moriarty was the original Havenite version that used conventional fire control links)
We're told that they're definitely not omnidirectional. In fact it seems it can be moderately directional; with very little backscatter (though that's not necessarily anywhere near as tightly focused as you can make radio, or better still a laser. Still, it's directional enough that a Ghost Rider's FTL transmission aren't detectable by the ship's it's shadowing (as they're pointed away from it)

And I want to say we've seen FTL comms in general used to send a signal out laterally to a relay without being detected - so it seems the current focus is good to at least a 45 degree cone; and possibly significantly better.


Still if someone can slip a sensor roughly into the communication path it becomes a lot easier to detect the transmission. I think that's what happened with the Silver Bullets. They moved to be inside the shell of Mycoft controllers so they had a much better chance of being close to between the controller and it's next relay -- then once one Silver Bullet is lucky enough catch an FTL burst it can start tracing back to find the Mycoft platform and the relay it was talking to. Hang out undetected near the relay and likely other Mycofts will talk to it sooner or later and you can then patiently trace back to their location.

Getting an even tighter focus on the signal would make it harder to make the initial discovering of an FTL link; but if you've got a swarm of undetected drones scouting out your system defenses for weeks, the odds are they're going to find a lot of things you wish they hadn't.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:At any rate, when Honor brought the dead back from Hell, she didn't take any chances that the big bad Salamander herself wouldn't get blown into pieces too small to simply make a nice handbag. And wouldn't it have been ironic if the RMN killed Honor?

Hmm. Now that we're speaking of transponders I wonder what (if anything) she had her captures Peep ships identifying themselves as.

They called themselves the Elysian Space Navy, but I'm not sure if they made up corresponding transponder codes.

In any case she brought them into Trevor's Star far enough out (and close enough to an FTL relay) that she was able to send her message and preempt any thoughts of closing and firing on this handful of clearly Peep designs of warships.

I agree, that is an interesting question. But I could accept that certain officers if not all are given classified emergency transponder frequencies. Or, in this case, simply squawking S.O.S repeatedly. But still, there seems some chance of hypering in on top of another ship with some CO who is a hothead.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I don't recall this tactic ever being used as far as warships. But I do recall many times a system was waiting with baited breath for the activation of transponders from the latest visitors coming across the hyper wall. What other measures follow? The ruse would probably have a low chance of working in a larger system in time of war. But in peacetime, and especially in smaller systems, it should allow an enemy to get close, if other measures are not taken.

There was the case of the HMS Ellipsis that the enigmatic Charles knew some things about. The Peeps had captured a Star Knight CA mostly intact (HMS Ellipsis) and the ship hadn't been declared overdue yet. So they were using it in a false flag operation to make the Andermani believe the Manties were "bad guys."

The false flag happened because a Star Knight was pretty distinctive, at this time exclusive to the Manticoran Alliance. The IAN would know that and would have good sensor profiles. So this worked only because the Peeps had an actual Star Knight to use. Moreover, because the Andies at this time were neutral, they wouldn't have detailed IFF on MA ships. So this worked only because it was in a backwater, neutral system.

This type of false flag could never happen in a major MA system. The IFF is probably an encrypted exchange that rotates every so often, so it can't be duplicated and will raise eyebrows if it's too old. Moreover, in a central system, the IFF would be followed by more message exchanges, including mail. Keeping up the ruse for long would be difficult.

cthia wrote:But in peace, it has to be rather easy to pull it off in the MBS. There must be countless ships entering the system. Are they all queried or stopped after the right transponder is broadcast?

I expect they are all queried, as a matter of fact. If they come to the Junction, traffic control needs to know where to route them and how to charge them. If you come into the hyperlimit, then you probably have to state your business.

Note that we're talking more about territorial waters here than high seas. No foreign warship is allowed into the hyperlimit unless the host polity explicitly allows it -- there's no freedom of navigation there for foreign warships. So if it's a non-allied warship, it's going to be stopped, queried and probably escorted in if it has legitimate business. If it's an allied warship, then all the cryptographic exchanges are required and the host knows which vessels are supposed to be where.

As a matter of fact, I always expected some navy to use captured ships to help pull off this ruse. And possibly even use some doctored footage to help play along.

So a Mannerheim ship could have showed up in Manticore by claiming to be from the Judean League. What does it accomplish doing that?

Thanks for the info.

I dunno. It may depend on how deceptive the ruse. I was thinking more like in peacetime. And maybe a ship of Grayson design squawking Grayson codes. Maybe claiming to have the Protector or a Key or Keys aboard. There would at least be hesitation before firing on the Protector, or a Key. And we know that even warships are allowed within the hyperlimit of allies. Do recall that the incident between Byng and the helpless destroyers was instigated while both were in orbit.

At any rate, I expect queries to be taken. But, in time of peace where there are tons of metal arriving and leaving hourly in the busy MBS, is anything else routinely performed as a matter of course, like boarding? That policy would quickly back everything up during the busy traffic of peacetime.